What do train drivers do?

[notadriver]

A bus/coach driver requires a legal document issued by a government agency.

Do you mean a PCV licence?

 

[quarella]

Do you mean a PCV licence?

I do. A train driver is expected to show competency to a manager but nothing is legally required.

 

[JB25]

An interesting thread and I totally get JJBs question as before I got my drivers job I often wondered how hard driving a train could be...

But the training is extensive (but fun!), consisting of two solid months on Rules based around signalling, different types of train working, writing reports, train dispatch etc, then you spend 6 weeks or so learning your fractions, what they do, how to fix them if they go wrong, and then once you finish in the school you spend 16-20 weeks learning practical handling, and gradually building up route knowledge. So no it's not a job you can just learn in a couple of days.

Once you are out there driving you have to drive in a safe manner running to signals, stopping at the correct stations, at the correct stop marks, and releasing doors the correct side etc. I love this job but you have to be committed... It can be tough going to work when other people are on their way home from a night out, and it's tough going to bed at 6pm when my fiancee and son are still awake, or getting home at 3am but in all honesty I wouldn't change it for the World.

It sounds massively like bs when you are training but Route Knowledge is such a huge part of being a train driver.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It sounds massively like bs when you are training but Route Knowledge is such a huge part of being a train driver.

One thing I have never quite understood about Britain's railways is this route specific knowledge thing.
It may be apocryphal, but I've always believed that German train drivers can "go anywhere" because of the standardised nature of the signalling (which is speed signalling rather than our more common location-dependent signalling).
So I wonder if, for instance, a driver on the modern 4-aspect MAS WCML can drive a similar train on the 4-aspect MAS ECML without special training on the route?
You might expect much the same on the southern routes into London which all have a similar signalling system.
If this is not possible, what have we been doing for the last 60-odd years under single infrastructure ownership to introduce standardised signalling and operation to take "route specific" issues out of the equation?
When routes have ETCS will it be easier to switch routes without a lot of bureaucracy?

 

[RPM]

It's not just reading the signals though. It's things like braking points for stations, avoiding taking a wrong route, commencement of PSRs etc. All require local route knowledge.

 

[455driver]

then you spend 6 weeks or so learning your fractions,

I did it in a 1/4 of that time, or was it an 1/8!

 

[westv]

It's not just reading the signals though. It's things like braking points for stations, avoiding taking a wrong route, commencement of PSRs etc. All require local route knowledge.

How can a driver take a wrong route when the route is governed by the signal box??

 

[notadriver]

So 1) apparently train drivers don't need a legal document to drive - (I might as well throw away my train driving licence then) and 2) we can't be wrong routed. I think time to unsubscribe and leave the thread

 

[david_VI]

An interesting thread and I totally get JJBs question as before I got my drivers job I often wondered how hard driving a train could be...

But the training is extensive (but fun!), consisting of two solid months on Rules based around signalling, different types of train working, writing reports, train dispatch etc, then you spend 6 weeks or so learning your fractions, what they do, how to fix them if they go wrong, and then once you finish in the school you spend 16-20 weeks learning practical handling, and gradually building up route knowledge. So no it's not a job you can just learn in a couple of days.

Once you are out there driving you have to drive in a safe manner running to signals, stopping at the correct stations, at the correct stop marks, and releasing doors the correct side etc. I love this job but you have to be committed... It can be tough going to work when other people are on their way home from a night out, and it's tough going to bed at 6pm when my fiancee and son are still awake, or getting home at 3am but in all honesty I wouldn't change it for the World.

It sounds massively like bs when you are training but Route Knowledge is such a huge part of being a train driver.

fractions?

 

[Tomnick]

How can a driver take a wrong route when the route is governed by the signal box??

Quite easily if the signalman (for one of many reasons) pulls off for the wrong route!

 

[quarella]

So 1) apparently train drivers don't need a legal document to drive - (I might as well throw away my train driving licence then) and

My apologies if I have been misinformed.

 

[notadriver]

My apologies if I have been misinformed.

No need I apologise for my outburst

 

[455driver]

I think time to unsubscribe and leave the thread

Dont do that, some of the cr@p being spouted is hillarious!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

One thing I have never quite understood about Britain's railways is this route specific knowledge thing.
It may be apocryphal, but I've always believed that German train drivers can "go anywhere" because of the standardised nature of the signalling (which is speed signalling rather than our more common location-dependent signalling).
So I wonder if, for instance, a driver on the modern 4-aspect MAS WCML can drive a similar train on the 4-aspect MAS ECML without special training on the route?
You might expect much the same on the southern routes into London which all have a similar signalling system.
If this is not possible, what have we been doing for the last 60-odd years under single infrastructure ownership to introduce standardised signalling and operation to take "route specific" issues out of the equation?
When routes have ETCS will it be easier to switch routes without a lot of bureaucracy?

What you're describing is essentially the French TVM system which is speed signalling rather than route signalling. The actual route knowledge required in the traditional British sense doesn't really exist or apply as the indications in the cab tell the Driver what speed to run at. Approaching a station stop the sytem indicates in steps what speed to run at on the approach. Ignore the advice or overspeed and it's hello Mr Emergency brake application. In the case of a facing and diverging junction the indication of a speed reduction will tell the driver which route he will be taking. This is what should be happening when ERTMS finally replaces our dinosaur signalling system. No more lineside signals, just stop point indications and authority to proceed at X mph displayed in the cab.

 

[asylumxl]

Dont do that, some of the cr@p being spouted is hillarious!

I appreciate the skills of train drivers. Shame the general public doesn't understand the intricacies. I was in an HST which hit a person at Iver. We came to a stand outside Langley station, almost level with a road bridge. When the guard eventually announced it, the majority of passengers came to the conclusion he had jumped off the bridge! I attempted to explain to some close by that trains weigh hundreds of tons and can't stop like cars do, but it was in vein .

 

[The Barlow Boy]

How can a driver take a wrong route when the route is governed by the signal box??

Well, you might wonder that but I could tell you about the Sunday evening that a London based driver on an in-bound Eurostar took the junction signal without indicator 4 being displayed at Linford Street Junction and went three coach lengths past on his way to Victoria before he realised it. The London "Evening Standard" was predictable in it's reporting.

Between Basingstoke and Salisbury at the junction for the (non electrified) line for Salisbury the third rail carries on for some distance. That was extended like that so that when the driver of an electric train was wrongly routed (and took the signal (several have over the years) the train wouldn't have run out of juice rail by the time that it was stopped and so could be reversed back on to the Bournemouth line (driven back for the pedants).

A few years ago travelling home to Reigate from Victoria I was just beginning to think that it seemed a long way between Purley and Coulsdon when I realised - as did several other punters in the carriage - that the train was hurtling down the Quarry line (Redhill avoiding line). Yep, wrongly signalled and the driver took it apparently assuming that he'd been put that way because there was trouble on the Redhill line.

It hasn't to the best of my knowledge happened for a very long time but there have been cases of an 8 car being put on top of another 8 car in the platform at Waterloo, London Bridge and Victoria - and other places too I'm sure.

So, to answer your question, the above, that's how. But it's very extremely rare for it to happen and there are never any safety implications, just inconvenience.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I wonder if passenger appreciated the driver and his/her role more in units where they could see him/her at work, as some of the first generation diesel multiple units allowed them to; like the 101s.

 

[RPM]

How can a driver take a wrong route when the route is governed by the signal box??

Signallers can set a wrong route. Driver then uses route knowledge to recognise that he/she has been given wrong signal sequence, brings train to a halt short of junction signal and queries signaller as to WTF they might think they are doing. Simples.

 

[JB25]

I meant tractions not fractions. My phone auto corrected it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How can a driver take a wrong route when the route is governed by the signal box??

Not had a wrong route really yet but it can happen believe me.

The closest I have had was a job which I was taking ECS to London Bridge and was scheduled to stop over in the Sussex Loop outside NCG station for twenty minutes. When we got to NCG I had a main aspect instead of a Route 1 Junction Indicator. I questioned the signaller and he just told me to carry on.

Also at NCG I have pulled in on the Down Slow and had a Red at the end of the platform but the LOROL on the next platform that still had 9 minutes until departure had a green... Signaller error.

 

[Skoodle]

Also at NCG I have pulled in on the Down Slow and had a Red at the end of the platform but the LOROL on the next platform that still had 9 minutes until departure had a green... Signaller error.

That makes a change to us having to wait for a delayed Southern Caterham service, then be on restrictives all the way to Norwood Junction as we slowly follow you. Do Southern use a WTT or is it just turn up and go when you want?

 

[RPM]

We used to get wrong routed fairly frequently by LUL's Harrow box at Harrow North Junction. They used to try and send us to Baker Street instead of Marylebone. I had it happen to me 3 times within my first 4 years of driving, then LU management had a crackdown on it and I don't think there's been a single incident since.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I've been wrong routed on at least three occasions, managed to avoid them all.

 

[Rugd1022]

Used to get wrong routed quite often at Knighton Junction just south of Leicester - approaching from the south I'd get a green aspect for Leicester when what I actually required was a green or single yellow with the number one route indicator lit for the Coalville branch. Luckily as I'd always slowing for the 20mph junction anyway there's always enough room to stop short, phone the Bobbie and politely ask what the c*ck does he think he's up to...!

 

[Latecomer]

Wrong routing happens much more than the public think. They aren't often noticed because generally speaking the driver notices the error and stops in time (in some locations there is just a few seconds 'realisation time' to get the brake in sharpish).

To be noticed it generally requires two errors - one on the part of the signaller and one by the driver. When the driver notices it generally saves the signallers day and there's no further action, on the other hand, if the driver takes it in spite of it being the signallers fault initially it's the driver that is likely to suffer the more severe consequences.

 

[Tomnick]

Used to get wrong routed quite often at Knighton Junction just south of Leicester - approaching from the south I'd get a green aspect for Leicester when what I actually required was a green or single yellow with the number one route indicator lit for the Coalville branch. Luckily as I'd always slowing for the 20mph junction anyway there's always enough room to stop short, phone the Bobbie and politely ask what the c*ck does he think he's up to...!

Hopefully the first clue would be green signals rather than restrictive aspects at braking distance in rear of the junction signal (approach controlled for the route onto the branch). How would a driver, having taken a wrong route at an approach controlled junction, stand with the seemingly widely taught principle that "there's no such thing as an approach controlled signal" though?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This discussion is making me curious. As a passenger, when I've looked at signals on the railway, they look as if they simply show green, yellow, double yellow, or red. By itself that wouldn't be enough to tell a driver which way the points are set, but the discussion here seems to imply drivers can tell. Is there some other visual indicator that gives that information?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What you're describing is essentially the French TVM system which is speed signalling rather than route signalling. The actual route knowledge required in the traditional British sense doesn't really exist or apply as the indications in the cab tell the Driver what speed to run at. Approaching a station stop the sytem indicates in steps what speed to run at on the approach. Ignore the advice or overspeed and it's hello Mr Emergency brake application. In the case of a facing and diverging junction the indication of a speed reduction will tell the driver which route he will be taking. This is what should be happening when ERTMS finally replaces our dinosaur signalling system. No more lineside signals, just stop point indications and authority to proceed at X mph displayed in the cab.

Out of interest, how that kind of system cope with any adverse conditions that might mean the train would take longer to stop than normal?

 

[Tomnick]

This discussion is making me curious. As a passenger, when I've looked at signals on the railway, they look as if they simply show green, yellow, double yellow, or red. By itself that wouldn't be enough to tell a driver which way the points are set, but the discussion here seems to imply drivers can tell. Is there some other visual indicator that gives that information?

Junction indicators (five or, occasionally on the Southern and always (?) on LUL, three white lights at 45, 90 or 135deg to indicate a diverging route) or route indicators (alpha-numeric indications, 'theatre' or stencil type) indicate which route's set from a signal - so the driver knows whether the route takes him where he needs to go and, more importantly, whether he has to comply with any restriction of speed over a diverging route. Their route knowledge really comes into play when they need to be able to tell from a green signal that they've been wrong-routed at a junction two signals in advance (if they're booked over an approach-controlled - from red - diverging route, they should get YY at best on four-aspect signalling).

 

[GB]

As a passenger, when I've looked at signals on the railway, they look as if they simply show green, yellow, double yellow, or red. By itself that wouldn't be enough to tell a driver which way the points are set, but the discussion here seems to imply drivers can tell. Is there some other visual indicator that gives that information?

You have route indicators as Tomnick has said but you don't always need to see them to know which way the route is set.


If your train is booked to take a diverging route at xxx junction and you would normally see G YY Y R where the red (junction signal) steps up to a proceed aspect with route indicator for that route...if you see something like G G G G or G G G YY for example instead you know the route is set straight ahead and thus wrong route.

Doesn't work like that at all junctions but certainly a lot of them

 

[Latecomer]

And things get changed, so whereas coming off the up London Bridge slow on to the ELL we used to get route 1 we now need route 2 as route 1 now takes us in to the aforementioned up Sussex Loop. We use the up Sussex Loop sometimes and the indications would initially be the same (double yellow at Brockley). All it takes is a wrong route with a 1 and you hope the past few years of taking it day in day out doesn't mean you take it the day it happens.

However, even when there are certain clues that the route is set (such as double yellow at key locations) it is quite possible to get the same sequence for a wrong route. A driver should never assume the route is set until they have sight of the correct indication.

 

[Tomnick]

Occasionally, of course, the first indication of a wrong route is at the junction signal itself - by which time, for a high-speed junction, it's sometimes too late!