What do train crew do during planned engineering works?

[GoneSouth]

Having passed through Gloucester yesterday on a RRB (rail replacement bus), I noticed XC were not running any services at all beyond Gloucester towards Cardiff. I assume this means a huge reduction in crews needed to operate what is now Cheltenham to Nottingham service as you’ve just chopped about 3 hours from each round trip.

What happens to the spare crew capacity? Presumably you can’t just cut people’s hours without agreement and presumably the rosters are drawn up months in advance so people should be working on anll affected days.

Just curious as XC have a severe shortage on Sundays and are about to cut services on this line but presumably it’s adequately staffed during the rest of the week.

Route learning? Help with training new crew? There’s probably a load of things that could be done.

 

[transportphoto]

If the crew aren’t needed to work trains, they’ll sit around doing nothing.

 

[zwk500]

Having passed through Gloucester yesterday on a RRB (rail replacement bus), I noticed XC were not running any services at all beyond Gloucester towards Cardiff. I assume this means a huge reduction in crews needed to operate what is now Cheltenham to Nottingham service as you’ve just chopped about 3 hours from each round trip.

What happens to the spare crew capacity? Presumably you can’t just cut people’s hours without agreement and presumably the rosters are drawn up months in advance so people should be working on anll affected days.

Just curious as XC have a severe shortage on Sundays and are about to cut services on this line but presumably it’s adequately staffed during the rest of the week.

Route learning? Help with training new crew? There’s probably a load of things that could be done.

The works are planned years in advance, so you'd hope that at least overtime shifts can be avoided on days when less shifts are needed.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It might sound odd but often during planned engineering works, the requirement for crew goes up rather than down. This is mainly because a truncated service is by its nature less efficient, you have amended workings and staff sitting around with long turnarounds, who still need reasonably similar start/end times to normal.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It might sound odd but often during planned engineering works, the requirement for crew goes up rather than down. This is mainly because a truncated service is by its nature less efficient, you have amended workings and staff sitting around with long turnarounds, who still need reasonably similar start/end times to normal.

Sometimes diversions can lead to increased crew requirements if route conducting is necessary.

 

[muz379]

What happens to the spare crew capacity? Presumably you can’t just cut people’s hours without agreement and presumably the rosters are drawn up months in advance so people should be working on anll affected days.

So yeah links/base rosters are agreed for extended periods between timetable changes. But depending on agreements booked diagrams can be altered or cancelled and short term planning (STP) diagrams issued for shorter periods of time. But the actual pattern of days to be worked and start times for crew won't change unless the agreements at the toc allow start times to be changed on canellation or alteration of the diagram by an STP.

Then when it comes to actually rostering for the individual days these diagrams will be covered and crew without a diagram left spare , although you often find they might try and get things like briefs done if there are going to be lots of people sat spare.

And of course engineering works don't automatically mean shorter or less diagrams , crew might now be travelling in Taxis rather than passenger which take longer or there might be a requirement for empty stock moves to go different ways which are longer impacting crew break requirements .

 

[renegademaster]

If the crew aren’t needed to work trains, they’ll sit around doing nothing.

Do unneeded staff who'd normally be working that shift need to go into the staff room and sit around on standby or do they just have the day at home?

 

[Kite159]

Do unneeded staff who'd normally be working that shift need to go into the staff room and sit around on standby or do they just have the day at home?

Generally speaking, they would be sitting in the staff room at the train crew depots, just in case the brown stuff hits the fan, and they need to be deployed. During Covid times things were different

 

[dk1]

We all look at the mods once they’re released to see if we are likely to get away early It’s seen as being so hard done by if being traincrew we don't end up better off or don’t get home ahead of booked finish time during engineering works. Better still is to just sit spare and at my TOC you’d normally get the green light after 4-5hrs even if on a 10hr shift.

 

[Undiscovered]

Usually goes:

Book on at your normal rostered shift start ie 0552, (unless a blanket agreement is in place for earlies to book on at 0900 and late's to book on at noon, or whatever)

the earliest early will book on at their time, as there's still depot duties to do- updating notice cases etc, and likewise the last man will book on at their time for doing evening jobs.

Managers will make a point of being in to give safety briefs, welfare checks, chase up please explains.
Crew will usually be in the mess, drinking tea and catching up with each other. Also doing personal admin- clearing out your work bag, eating any out of code snacks, charging up power banks- or professional stuff, like updating Sectional Appendicies and answering please explains.


Depending on which line is closed, there might be taxis to go and wait for, or passing up on other TOCs services, to work trains across other bits of the network.
If there's nothing doing, and you have a particularly benevolent traincrew supervisor, you might be allowed to leave early, if not, you'll be held to your day.

 

[dk1]

Usually goes:

Book on at your normal rostered shift start ie 0552, (unless a blanket agreement is in place for earlies to book on at 0900 and late's to book on at noon, or whatever)

the earliest early will book on at their time, as there's still depot duties to do- updating notice cases etc, and likewise the last man will book on at their time for doing evening jobs.

Managers will make a point of being in to give safety briefs, welfare checks, chase up please explains.
Crew will usually be in the mess, drinking tea and catching up with each other. Also doing personal admin- clearing out your work bag, eating any out of code snacks, charging up power banks- or professional stuff, like updating Sectional Appendicies and answering please explains.


Depending on which line is closed, there might be taxis to go and wait for, or passing up on other TOCs services, to work trains across other bits of the network.
If there's nothing doing, and you have a particularly benevolent traincrew supervisor, you might be allowed to leave early, if not, you'll be held to your day.

Blimey, I wouldn’t want to work at your TOC. Whats that all about?

 

[Undiscovered]

Blimey, I wouldn’t want to work at your TOC. Whats that all about?

What's what about?

 

[dk1]

What's what about?

Being held up to your day if spare. I’ve never known that and I date back to 1984.

 

[Undiscovered]

I paraphrase

It takes five minutes to walk to the platform, five minutes to clear the train, five minutes to walk back to the mess.

There's always time in your shift to lock up a train.

It is the motto of our TCS.

 

[dk1]

I paraphrase

It takes five minutes to walk to the platform, five minutes to clear the train, five minutes to walk back to the mess. There's always time in your shift to lock up a train.

Sorry, was that meant for me? I’m a little confused.

 

[Undiscovered]

Sorry, was that meant for me? I’m a little confused.

It was. I didn't push the right button.

 

[dk1]

It was. I didn't push the right button.

So why are your traincrew made To stay up to their day if spare even during engineering works? That’s what I can’t quite get my head around. Is it just certain vindictive supervisors?

 

[Undiscovered]

So why are your traincrew made To stay up to their day if spare even during engineering works? That’s what I can’t quite get my head around. Is it just certain vindictive supervisors?

It's just wanting people to be at work for being at works sake.

There are a lot of diagrams where we're in for the maximum time, with minimum breaks, but the work content is negligible. Pass here, wait there. It is almost like they're designed out of spite.

 

[dk1]

It's just wanting people to be at work for being at works sake.

There are a lot of diagrams where we're in for the maximum time, with minimum breaks, but the work content is negligible. Pass here, wait there. It is almost like they're designed out of spite.

Hell fire. We would’ve been in tears at ours. Never been treated like that.

 

[Undiscovered]

Hell fire. We would’ve been in tears at ours. Never been treated like that.

A lot of the new higher ups haven't worked trains, so they don't really understand 'it'.
All they see is that I can be worked for 9hrs plus a day, and I only have to be given a 30minute break and so that's it. That is what I get.

 

[dk1]

A lot of the new higher ups haven't worked trains, so they don't really understand 'it'.
All they see is that I can be worked for 9hrs plus a day, and I only have to be given a 30minute break and so that's it. That is what I get.

That’s absolutely horrid.

 

[Undiscovered]

That’s absolutely horrid.

It may well be.
It's still the best job I've had, and I wouldn't change it. It is getting tougher, as I'm getting older, and I am in awe of those who have done their time. I cannot countenance what they have seen and done.
Personally, The early starts, late finishes, the fluctuating shift times and intensities. It isn't for everyone.

 

[paulmch]

That’s absolutely horrid.

There'd be a riot at my place if they tried that! Our usual rule of thumb is to call up after 6 hours and 99 times out of 100 the answer is "go home".

 

[dk1]

There'd be a riot at my place if they tried that! Our usual rule of thumb is to call up after 6 hours and 99 times out of 100 the answer is "go home".

After five hours the DTM would be bombarded with “do you need me anymore” phone calls here

 

[saismee]

A lot of the new higher ups haven't worked trains, so they don't really understand 'it'.
All they see is that I can be worked for 9hrs plus a day, and I only have to be given a 30minute break and so that's it. That is what I get.

I think it tends to be that a lot of higher ups haven't worked most of the roles that they manage. 12 hour shift standing at gates is a 45 minute break. That is all we get. 10 hours is the max we are rostered for, but 12 hour shifts are offered sometimes.

 

[Harpo]

I paraphrase

It takes five minutes to walk to the platform, five minutes to clear the train, five minutes to walk back to the mess.

There's always time in your shift to lock up a train.

It is the motto of our TCS.

Sounds like a TCS that isn’t going to get much joy asking for favours*.


(*For the uninitiated that usually means helping out by doing something that crew aren’t obliged to do and often outside of the job’s T&Cs. Usually when there’s a problem.)

 

[GoneSouth]

Sounds like a TCS that isn’t going to get much joy asking for favours*.


(*For the uninitiated that usually means helping out by doing something that crew aren’t obliged to do and often outside of the job’s T&Cs. Usually when there’s a problem.)

I haven’t worked on the railway but I tend to agree, this is just common sense to me. I’ve had good and bad managers over the years and you’re definitely likely to help out the ones who treat you with respect and dignity. The ones who bark orders and treat you like a scivvy can whistle when it comes to putting in a few extra hours now and then.

I like to think I’m considerate and respectful to the people who I manage and generally get very positive results from them when there’s something out of the ordinary to fix.

Same applies to the comments above which is what the thread was about really. The managers who want people to sit around until the last minute of their shift when there really isn’t anything they can do is pretty and it doesn’t go unnoticed. Try getting one of those people to help out when you really need them and it’s not going to happen.

Thanks for all the input though, interesting to hear about the different cultures and management styles during disruption and engineering works

 

[Horizon22]

Booked staff will be doing one of the following

1) spare at depot due to reduced booked diagrams
2) running shuttles or diversionary services. By their nature these are less efficient than normal diagrams.

With engineering works done in advance, overtime isn’t required and it may depend but people may be able to book extra A/L. I’m talking about Monday-Saturday generally as there’s normally some Sunday engineering work or late start up / early finishes elsewhere and Sunday crew working is much more complex.

It's just wanting people to be at work for being at works sake.

There are a lot of diagrams where we're in for the maximum time, with minimum breaks, but the work content is negligible. Pass here, wait there. It is almost like they're designed out of spite.

During engineering works - diagrams are naturally less efficient than the LTP and certainly on Sundays they are particularly so. This is just because planners can spend less time on them to improve, iterate etc. They are not the base which gets a lot more feedback from crew, unions, controllers and managers. They are not done “out of spite” they are just not very refined and individual diagrams look nonsensical because they are not as refined.

The spare remaining sitting around until booked finish time - particularly during engineering - sounds like a local TOC issue.

As for engineering works I’ve assisted once where the train plan was done in advance with the understanding that a bit of infrastructure that was broken would be fixed to allow the amended plan - for engineering works - to work. However it wasn’t which meant an on-the-fly service plan was made by the night turn control team. It didn’t quite work though - controllers are not planners and certainly with less than 6 hours in the dead of night! - so spare resources were needed from depots where many were spare to assist with extra shunts to support the train plan. This was a vital resource and shows what can or may be needed, but ultimately for many crew you might be lucky to have an easy time.

I’ve also worked at stations where there was no train service on the weekend so the gateline, platform, revenue and management staff just delivered customer service and gave alternative travel advice to the few surprised stragglers. Also with controllers where one of the line of routes is shut, you just assist your colleagues if needed. But overall both scenarios are pretty chilled. Luck of the draw with the roster sometimes!

 

[tony6499]

Being held up to your day if spare. I’ve never known that and I date back to 1984.

How to make sure you lose all goodwill if supervisors do that

 

[dk1]

How to make sure you lose all goodwill if supervisors do that

Totally mate and it’s remembered and passed on too. Thankfully ours has an excellent working relationship on the whole and therefore such issues are very exceptional.