The danger is though that you wouldn't get enough volunteers.
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What do think about the Christmas closedown?
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I've already mentioned NL, CH and DE in this thread. Trains may be vaguely comparable in the UK but buses and cycling don't even come close.
Nothing to prevent people from cycling though in the UK. Also at least in the UK people will use buses. I had a conversation with someone in the US that refused to use the bus as it wasn't the "cool" thing to do.
The UK has one of the lowest cycle rates in the developed world, less than 2% of trips. That is mostly due to the poor or non-existent infrastructure, meaning that the few who cycle do so because they are enthusiasts or because of their poor economic circumstances. Cycle rates essentially depends on how good the infrastructure is.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Slightly off topic - but I would rather travel anytime in the evening on the London network than on the RER in Paris.
SNCF - much overated - try them when they have a service disruption ...and DB has gone well down too for punctulity - 3 of 3 journeys this year well late and often for basic regulation and station operations.
Having said that - both run decent Xmas period services.
SS4
Established Member
Surely the same thing applies for those who demand preferential holidays simply because they have kids? Whereas I personally couldn't care less (I'd prefer to work on Christmas even for base pay simply to be alone) it does seem lop-sided.
Having worked numerous Christmas Day shifts in a pre-railway job... it was great. Triple time, hardly any work, get away from the family.
As has been said above, there are cultural differences the world over. Us Brits take Christmas Day more seriously as a 'day of rest' than most other countries, and travel demand is low - look at the traffic on the roads as evidence. Most of the rest of Europe treats Christmas Day in a similar way we treat Easter, just without the bunnies.
Boxing Day is a different matter, and I think there is a good case for Boxing Day services on busy routes. However it is in very few franchise agreements (or staff agreements), so services will only run if they can be resourced and turn a profit. I know that at last one SE commuter TOC was offered unfettered access on a Boxing Day a few years ago as there were no engineering works on its route. It declined.
As has been said above, there are cultural differences the world over. Us Brits take Christmas Day more seriously as a 'day of rest' than most other countries, and travel demand is low - look at the traffic on the roads as evidence. Most of the rest of Europe treats Christmas Day in a similar way we treat Easter, just without the bunnies.
Boxing Day is a different matter, and I think there is a good case for Boxing Day services on busy routes. However it is in very few franchise agreements (or staff agreements), so services will only run if they can be resourced and turn a profit. I know that at last one SE commuter TOC was offered unfettered access on a Boxing Day a few years ago as there were no engineering works on its route. It declined.
WestCoast
Established Member
Hmm, despite DB's punctuality/service woes of late, they still have fair uncomplicated fares, decent stock and a joined up network. It's more than can be said of services in my area of the UK! I use both networks each year.
Anyway, the lack of Christmas Day services is a cultural thing, I don't see a problem with it really. It's only one day a year and it's quite quaint in this fast paced world. As for Boxing Day, well that should be almost full service....
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tbtc
Veteran Member
True, which is why the religious argument seems like an excuse for people who don't want to work at Christmas (rather than genuine conviction)
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It may seem silly to you, but the demand is obviously there (as I said, its the busiest single shopping day of the year).
Plus there's hundreds of thousands of people attending sporting fixtures etc on Boxing Day.
Seems strange for the railway to ignore this obvious demand (when Easter Sunday and other bank holidays have trains).
ANorthernGuard
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when I signed on the dotted line, my contract stated that we do not work 25th/26th, like has been said it is the only time we can guarantee to be off with our families, and is something that I use to the best of my ability, however eventually it will change and we will all be expected to live a 365 day a year society and nothing will be sacred, woe the day that happens (IMO) of course
tbtc
Veteran Member
I can't see Christmas Day ever needing a rail service.
Boxing Day is a completely different matter though.
If it gets to the point where a car is unaffordable for the majority of people then there may well have to be some service or people will have no way of travelling at all.
Old Timer
Established Member
I find it interesting that those who demand services, provided by others of course, will themselves be on leave and not at work. How cynical.
tbtc
Veteran Member
I've said myself I'd be as happy to work Boxing Day as I would to work any other Bank Holiday.
WestCoast
Established Member
If running a car becomes too expensive for most people, then I reckon Christmas Day services won't be the first priority!
I'm afraid, certainly outside of the main conurbations, we go back 100 years to mass immobility first. Our society has evolved during the development of the automobile. Even public transport supporters and users (like myself) must realise this.
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Don't worry. We have the same debate every year at about this time!
O L Leigh
Established Member
...and it's always the same points raised for and against each time.
O L Leigh
O L Leigh
SS4
Established Member
Saturday service here on both bus and train with amendments for engineering works. That being said New Year's isn't very special
Well I was only referring to when New Year's Day is on a weekday. New Year's Day may well not be special but I am not convinced of the demand for a full weekday service (except some peak trains) even when New Year's Day is on a weekday.
Although it's something I can't verify right now, I seem to remember that we get just as many as no one else gets a holiday if they would've missed one that was on a weekend, so they lose nearly a third of them every year by bad luck.
New Year's day presumably gets a service because it's a major footballing day, and even fewer of the supporters will be driving. Coming back to the original point, if there was enough demand that the TOCs could offer enough money that enough staff would come on duty, then I can't see them not doing so, they're after a profit after all.
I am sure Stagecoach, First, Go Ahead etc would love to run a train service on boxing day, now who is going to PAY for it?
When you can answer that question (sensibly) we will move on to the staffing issues.
A few years ago there was much talk about Gatwick Express running a train service on boxing day, unfortunately it was actually a rail replacement BUS service run under contract to GX.
When you can answer that question (sensibly) we will move on to the staffing issues.
A few years ago there was much talk about Gatwick Express running a train service on boxing day, unfortunately it was actually a rail replacement BUS service run under contract to GX.
Which is already the case for people who cannot drive.
If you cannot drive, unless you are prepared to take a taxi, or walk/cycle 30+ miles in winter, at most places in England and Wales and parts of Scotland, you are trapped in the same place from around 9-10pm on December 24 to 7-8am on December 27.
Fully understand the comments of rail staff who do not want to work those days (and I think we mostly agree that December 25 should be left closed anyway). However, that is not really the issue. The issue is: Is this the right way to run a railway? NO-ONE else in Europe does this. Not for 60 hours!
What would the reaction be if all motorways and A-roads were shut for the same period?
Thanks for the all the comments, very interesting.
crewmeal
Member
Nothing new here. It happens every year.
starrymarkb
Established Member
I lose a day for Christmas Day even if I'm not rostered to work it :roll:
There does seem to be a certain defeatism here. TOCs provide a poor service on 26th, so people don't use it, therefore it is assumed that no one would use a better service, so it would result in a loss. What about putting on a full service, perhaps even at reduced fares, and seeing what happens. The sort of commercial enterprise TOCs are meant to show
I'm personally happy that the railway is closed over the Xmas period, have you seen the money railway staff get paid to work over Xmas?.
That money that most railway staff get would go a long way towards a good holiday, etc, etc.
Considering that most railway staff working over Xmas period will be agency staff, who these days with Network Rail wanting a seven day railway hardly get more than 2 days work a week, with them being Sat, Sun every week.
That money that most railway staff get would go a long way towards a good holiday, etc, etc.
Considering that most railway staff working over Xmas period will be agency staff, who these days with Network Rail wanting a seven day railway hardly get more than 2 days work a week, with them being Sat, Sun every week.
Yes, but then most of the rest of Europe:
- has plenty of multi-track sections
- has more bi-directional signalling
- has significantly lower service frequencies
- thinks nothing of closing entire routes for a couple of hours during the day for routine maintenance
- doesn't have the same safety rules that we do.
Case in point: I was travelling from Frankfurt to Nuremberg by ICE a few years back during Engineering Work and we trundled along at 75mph all the way with work going on on the adjacent line, yet were still early at all the intermediate stations due to the padding in the revised timetable.
Cheers,
Barry
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