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You can still appeal against a Penalty Fare outside the time limit but you would first have to present arguments that persuade the Appeal Panel to give you permission to do this as normally they would not. An example might be if you identify possible procedural irregularities that made it impossible to meet the original deadline but you acted swiftly as soon as you could.
16.—(1) A person (“the appellant”) charged a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) may appeal
against that penalty fare to the relevant Appeal Panel—
(a) before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day after the day on which the
penalty fare is charged; or (b) within such longer period as the relevant Appeal Panel may allow.
There was another thread here (a few months ago?) that discussed how there's very little they can really do if the parent doesn't volunteer to pay. (Essentially what you appear to have been told over the phone.)
Maybe write a letter explaining how you were unaware until the letter arrived, but the child insists they weren't handed any paperwork so ask for evidence that this was handled in accordance with the procedures and ask for another copy of it as the date and time in the letter are wrong suggesting it was generated retrospectively which would automatically make it invalid? And anyway if the machine was broken as is claimed, a Penalty Fare couldn't have validly been issued? But also just enclose a cheque for the original fare that remains unpaid and suggest that, given the mistakes in the paperwork and the broken machine, that should be sufficient to resolve the matter?
If I have read the letter properly, the time and date given is when the penalty fare was issued. Gven that the penalty fare was issued at a time when the OP's son was demonstrably not on the railway, is there anyone here who can confirm that penalty fares can only be issued at the time of the incident? That is, there's no way for the railway to sort out the paperwork this following day?
You can still appeal against a Penalty Fare outside the time limit but you would first have to present arguments that persuade the Appeal Panel to give you permission to do this as normally they would not. An example might be if you identify possible procedural irregularities that made it impossible to meet the original deadline but you acted swiftly as soon as you could.
There was another thread here (a few months ago?) that discussed how there's very little they can really do if the parent doesn't volunteer to pay. (Essentially what you appear to have been told over the phone.)
Maybe write a letter explaining how you were unaware until the letter arrived, but the child insists they weren't handed any paperwork so ask for evidence that this was handled in accordance with the procedures and ask for another copy of it as the date and time in the letter are wrong suggesting it was generated retrospectively which would automatically make it invalid? And anyway if the machine was broken as is claimed, a Penalty Fare couldn't have validly been issued? But also just enclose a cheque for the original fare that remains unpaid and suggest that, given the mistakes in the paperwork and the broken machine, that should be sufficient to resolve the matter?
Thank you. I can't appeal the penalty fare as I have no details about it. Ref numbers etc. I have been given some places to email so will do this with all the evidence I have and will ask them for evidence the Penalty Fare was given in person and see what they come up.with. it just all seems to over the top.for a £1.50 fare for one stop at night for 3 kids baring in mind they have always paid it before ( I can tell by his bank he does).. thank you for taking the time to reply
The lady was very rude and told me that my son was issued a ticket on the train for having no valid ticket and it wasn't their fault he hadn't told me. I argued that if I was sent a letter saying he hadn't paid the fine and now owed more money should have received a letter saying he had the fine in the first place
She said no he should have told me and when I asked her name she refused to tell me and hung up!
If the staff were wearing body cameras (which they may not have been), and if they turned them on (which they may not have done) and if the footage hasn't been recorded over by now (which it may have been), then anyone in said footage has a right to access it under GDPR, with the train company having 1 month to provide it.
If the OP's son is denying having been on the train at that time, then he has no right to access any footage that may or may not exist, as by definition he is not in it.
Has no-one noticed that both of those letters say the boys were on a train without a ticket on 2 APRIL 2023?
The OP says it was on 1 FEBRUARY 2023
Has the OP made a mistake or is it an entirely different incident possibly involving entirely different people and that GTR has mixed the facts up between the two cases and created this mess?
It's the first time I have had to. I explained to her I wanted her name only incase I needed to call again regarding the matter so I could refer back to who is spoke to etc regarding the info I had been given. She told me she wouldn't give her name and when I said I had never had a problem when asking for someone's name she hung up on me! I was more annoyed that when I did call straight back and gave the man who would give me his name my ref number there was no trace I had even called so I couldn't even put in a complaint about her! Terrible experience all round for us
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I have no idea how I would even try and obtain that given I can't even seem to speak to anyone but will certainly mention this for proof they gave my son the Penalty Fare in person at the time !
Thank you. I can't appeal the penalty fare as I have no details about it. Ref numbers etc. I have been given some places to email so will do this with all the evidence I have and will ask them for evidence the Penalty Fare was given in person and see what they come up.with. it just all seems to over the top.for a £1.50 fare for one stop at night for 3 kids baring in mind they have always paid it before ( I can tell by his bank he does).. thank you for taking the time to reply
I think @furlong's advice is very good ref this as a way forward under the circs (post #31). It's catch 22 if yuo do't have ref numbers but just state clearly the child's name and address and they will have to track the ref number from their data (they should be able to do this).
Perhaps use the b-hol weekend if you have the chance to draft up what you intend to say based on furlong's advice (without your son' personal details obv) and post it here so people can help perfect the draft.
Can others here post any more useful addresses for Southern Revenue protection team than the customer services generic e-mail which is all that seems to be detailed in their revenue protection policy I linked above? This would help the OP - both e-mail and/or postal address?
It's the first time I have had to. I explained to her I wanted her name only incase I needed to call again regarding the matter so I could refer back to who is spoke to etc regarding the info I had been given. She told me she wouldn't give her name and when I said I had never had a problem when asking for someone's name she hung up on me! I was more annoyed that when I did call straight back and gave the man who would give me his name my ref number there was no trace I had even called so I couldn't even put in a complaint about her! Terrible experience all round for us
Yes i agree, appalling customer service. My question was really directed at other forum members who might have had previous experiences with this company.
Has no-one noticed that both of those letters say the boys were on a train without a ticket on 2 APRIL 2023?
The OP says it was on 1 FEBRUARY 2023
Has the OP made a mistake or is it an entirely different incident possibly involving entirely different people and that GTR has mixed the facts up between the two cases and created this mess?
As discussed on other threads, they probably won't release it. But the OP can ask if they've got it, and offer to send a (officially endorsed, eg passport) photo of your your son, for them to compare.
Has no-one noticed that both of those letters say the boys were on a train without a ticket on 2 APRIL 2023?
The OP says it was on 1 FEBRUARY 2023
Has the OP made a mistake or is it an entirely different incident possibly involving entirely different people and that GTR has mixed the facts up between the two cases and created this mess?
Nope definelty was the 1st as we had been in London all day then we dropped him at Buxted and he got the train. I even have a text at 7.50 asking him if he was on the train yet. The 2nd was my husbands birthday and we were all at home. I was cross with my son as he promised to cut the grass so at 3pm when the letter says this took place I have a text asking my son to go and cut the grass because he was upstairs in his room! Definitely no mistake with our date and time
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Omg I am so sorry! I feel like such an idiot. I hadn't even realised it said Feb!!!!! I copied the letters into a reply too so didn't even think why you were questioning it!
It's been a bit stressful!
OK so my son was on the train on 1st April at around 8pm. I know this as I text him, this is when he said it happened.
The letter says it was on the 2nd April at 3.03pm but he was home all day as it was his dad's birthday and I even text him in his room at 3pm asking him to cut the grass so no mistake about the day he was on the train from our side. The other boys letter says it was 2nd as well but at 3.07. His mum confirms this was also not the case. I am so sorry for the confusion , I feel like ab idiot!
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I received a letter today saying my son owed £102.20 for a fine my 14 year old son hadn't paid for having no ticket on a train from Buxted to uckfield. I called them immediately and said it was the first I knew of it. The lady was very rude and told me that my son was issued a ticket on the train for having no valid ticket and it wasn't their fault he hadn't told me. I argued that if I was sent a letter saying he hadn't paid the fine and now owed more money should have received a letter saying he had the fine in the first place
She said no he should have told me and when I asked her name she refused to tell me and hung up! I called back and was told I should have received a letter and if I didn't want to pay to ignore it.
When my son arrived home I had a go at him and he told me that he hadn't done it on purpose he had tried to get a ticket but the machine was broken so they got on hoping to pay the guard. Instead he said two officers in vests approached them so they explained the situation and he said they told him they would pssoibly get a letter and fine but probably not as kids and a first offence. They took their details and that was that. My son said he didn't think to tell me as he didn't think anymore of it. Anyway, when he looked at the letter he noticed that the alleged date and time were wrong. This incident happened on 1/2/2023 @ around 8pm but the letter says 02/02/2023 @15.03. I can prove he was at home then. I then spoke to one of the other parents who also got the letter but sadly paid it not realising what happened and also not realising the date was wrong. Her letter however still said the 2nd but was a fine for £102.40 @15.07. The other lad hasn't even had a letter. This was the first any of us had heard about the incident. My question is how can the date and fine be different for both kids for the same incident? How can they have got the date and time wrong anyway? Whet an earth do I do now? I know essentially he hadn't got a ticket but he thought he could get one on the train, was told by whoever approached him too wait for a letter we didn't receive and also rhe lady on the phone lied saying he was given a ticket on the train! Let alone the fact we both have different amounts, dates and times. They got the train which should have been £1.50 because they thought it was safer that walking to the next village but now they are too worried too! Any advise greatly received as I would like to speak to a person but don't seem to be able too. Many thanks
Can't see how to edit the post! Toral idiot as it wasn't Feb it was April. Son was on the train 8pm 1st of arpil but letter says it was 2nd April at 3pm while he was home with me. So sorry for the confusion I was a bit stressed and hadn't even noticed!
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Yes i agree, appalling customer service. My question was really directed at other forum members who might have had previous experiences with this company.
A small but curious point: trains from Buxted to Uckfield leave at 17 or 18 past the hour on Sundays (2 April was a Sunday), so the time of issue is odd. Were there delays or engineering works that day.
He wasn't in the train on the Sunday! That is my issue. He was actually on the train on sat 1st April at around 8pm ( I text him at 7.50 asking if he was on it yet knowing he was getting it.) This is my issue. He was at home with me on Sunday 2nd at 3pm when they say the incident occurred. I can't speak tk anyone to argue this though!
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A small but curious point: trains from Buxted to Uckfield leave at 17 or 18 past the hour on Sundays (2 April was a Sunday), so the time of issue is odd. Were there delays or engineering works that day.
He wasn't in the train on the Sunday! That is my issue. He was actually on the train on sat 1st April at around 8pm ( I text him at 7.50 asking if he was on it yet knowing he was getting it.) This is my issue. He was at home with me on Sunday 2nd at 3pm when they say the incident occurred. I can't speak tk anyone to argue this though!
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You are right the Sunday one didn't leave Buxted until 15.18
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I have spoken to my son and he said they were sitting down and after about two mins of the train leaving Buxted there were approached by these two officers who asked if they had tickets so they explained the situation. If this had been the Sunday as they are saying it is then given the info about the teain times that day it means they would have given the penalty before the train even set off and my son said he has seen this happen before and they just tell you to get off if you haven't a ticket before it leave the station. This is why I believe his version of events rather than theirs!
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A small but curious point: trains from Buxted to Uckfield leave at 17 or 18 past the hour on Sundays (2 April was a Sunday), so the time of issue is odd. Were there delays or engineering works that day.
Thank you for commenting though because I didn't think to look at what time the train actually arrived and left. I'm not a train user as I'm sure you can tell!
As I'm understanding this, your son has admitted they did travel without a ticket, so in terms of whether or not he risked a penalty fare depends on whether or not the ticket machine was working when he boarded the train. If it wasn't then it shouldn't have been issued? I wonder if the TOC have an electronic log of when the machines are down/working? Or can see that no other tickets were issued that day from that machine for instance. If so then it may help prove your son's version of events.
If the OP's son is denying having been on the train at that time, then he has no right to access any footage that may or may not exist, as by definition he is not in it.
If, "by definition" the Company agrees they are accusing the wrong person, it's surely case closed.
A circular argument we have had (and never resolved!) many times before. The Company is so certain that the accused is the person in the BodyCam, that they are preparing to prosecute him. But they won't release any footage because they accept your assertion that it's not him. Heads they win, tails you lose! The solution may be to ask for the footage before formally denying it is him.
Thank you. I can't appeal the penalty fare as I have no details about it. Ref numbers etc. I have been given some places to email so will do this with all the evidence I have and will ask them for evidence the Penalty Fare was given in person and see what they come up.with. it just all seems to over the top.for a £1.50 fare for one stop at night for 3 kids baring in mind they have always paid it before ( I can tell by his bank he does).. thank you for taking the time to reply
As I'm understanding this, your son has admitted they did travel without a ticket, so in terms of whether or not he risked a penalty fare depends on whether or not the ticket machine was working when he boarded the train. If it wasn't then it shouldn't have been issued? I wonder if the TOC have an electronic log of when the machines are down/working? Or can see that no other tickets were issued that day from that machine for instance. If so then it may help prove your son's version of events.
Thank you . Yes they boarded the train without a ticket as the machine had broken and hoped to see a guard ( didn't want tk walk as night time and more dangerous ) so risked it. Got spoken to ( no problem) was told they may or may not get a fine for £20 and gave their details. No paper work given or received until yesterday when i as his parent got a reminder for the penalty fare he apparently hadn't paid for £101.20. The date and time were not the date and time this actually happened and I have since found out the train didn't even leave the station until over 15 mins after they say he was given the penalty fare. J want tk fight it but cannot find how or where to as I keep drawing a blank everywhere I try. I have tried to find out how to see if the machine was working, asked on local social media etc but again drawn a blank . I feel sorry for the other parent who paid it before realising it was wrong!
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Yes they boarded the train without a ticket as the machine had broken and hoped to see a guard ( didn't want tk walk as night time and more dangerous ) so risked it.
If the machine was broken (and no ticket office or Permit facility) there was of course no risk involved in travelling without tickets; they were perfectly entitled to pay later (even if they did not know this).
Are yuo referring to the online Penalty Fares appeal web page?
In any case - by now prob best to write formally to Southern. Simply put the refs in the letter and name and addresses in that, it's Southern's job to match all that up - ask that the whole matter be reconsidered in the light of the points furlong advised above and send them that. Post the draft of what you plan to send for helpful comment as people will be able to help you get it focussed on what needs to be said.
1. Your son didn't travel on 2 April at around 15.00, he travelled on 1 April at around 20.00, which is when he was challenged by the inspectors.
2. He couldn't buy a ticket at Buxted because the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine was out of order.
3. He offered to pay on the train and had the cash for that.
4. He was not issued with a Penalty Fare Notice by either of the inspectors and no other notice has been received by him by post before the letter stating that payment was overdue.
5. You should offer to pay the Single Child fare for the journey made
The unhelpfulness of the staff on the phone is another issue and should be left until the penalty fare issue is sorted out.
Others may be able to give better advice. Write a draft with personal details omitted and I'm sure that help will be given
1. Your son didn't travel on 2 April at around 15.00, he travelled on 1 April at around 20.00, which is when he was challenged by the inspectors.
2. He couldn't buy a ticket at Buxted because the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine was out of order.
3. He offered to pay on the train and had the cash for that.
4. He was not issued with a Penalty Fare Notice by either of the inspectors and no other notice has been received by him by post before the letter stating that payment was overdue.
5. You should offer to pay the Single Child fare for the journey made
The unhelpfulness of the staff on the phone is another issue and should be left until the penalty fare issue is sorted out.
Others may be able to give better advice. Write a draft with personal details omitted and I'm sure that help will be given
Assuming that Penalty Fares must be issued at the time of the incident (as I asked up thread, please can someone confirm or deny this?) I think you should also point out that your son was not on the railway when the Penalty Fare was apparently issued.
If Penalty Fares are meant to be issued at the time of the incident, then something that could explain the course of events so far would be that someone other than your son gave his details on 2 April. That someone would then have received the Penalty Fare paperwork. It's that paperwork - given by hand to someone who is not your son - which you have now received a 'reminder' about.
If that's the course of events, then that's why you should explain that your son was elsewhere: through no fault of you or your son, there's a mistaken identity.
Thank you for confirming. This re-affirms my view that a penalty fare was probably not issued to your son at all, but a standard letter has been sent out demanding payment on the usual template.
I would agree that a brief letter back along the following lines would be suitable in the first instance:
1. Your son didn't travel on 2 April at around 15.00, he travelled on 1 April at around 20.00, which is when he was challenged by the inspectors.
2. He couldn't buy a ticket at Buxted because the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine was out of order.
3. He offered to pay on the train and had the cash for that.
4. He was not issued with a Penalty Fare Notice by either of the inspectors and no other notice has been received by him by post before the letter stating that payment was overdue.
5. You should offer to pay the Single Child fare for the journey made
The unhelpfulness of the staff on the phone is another issue and should be left until the penalty fare issue is sorted out.
Others may be able to give better advice. Write a draft with personal details omitted and I'm sure that help will be given
I agree that the customer service/telephone call aspect should be omitted for now because it clouds the issue.
If you post a draft on here then I and others will be happy to review.
Also, if the company doesn’t drop it after receiving your letter or tries to bring any legal proceedings in respect of the incident or the money then please post back here - I may be able to provide some direct legal assistance for you if they try to escalate things.
If that's the course of events, then that's why you should explain that your son was elsewhere: through no fault of you or your son, there's a mistaken identity.
Thank you for confirming. This re-affirms my view that a penalty fare was probably not issued to your son at all, but a standard letter has been sent out demanding payment on the usual template.
I would agree that a brief letter back along the following lines would be suitable in the first instance:
I agree that the customer service/telephone call aspect should be omitted for now because it clouds the issue.
If you post a draft on here then I and others will be happy to review.
Also, if the company doesn’t drop it after receiving your letter or tries to bring any legal proceedings in respect of the incident or the money then please post back here - I may be able to provide some direct legal assistance for you if they try to escalate things.
Thank you so much and I do tend to waffle as you can probably see so will definitely post a draft on here! Thank you for your comments and help it is really appreciated
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Yes I was thinking go with the date and time evidence as wrong on its own and only go into other stuff if they don't agree? I was just worried they would come back and say clerical error as there obviously was an incident just not when they said and wasn't handled as they said either. Thank you for your comments
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1. Your son didn't travel on 2 April at around 15.00, he travelled on 1 April at around 20.00, which is when he was challenged by the inspectors.
2. He couldn't buy a ticket at Buxted because the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine was out of order.
3. He offered to pay on the train and had the cash for that.
4. He was not issued with a Penalty Fare Notice by either of the inspectors and no other notice has been received by him by post before the letter stating that payment was overdue.
5. You should offer to pay the Single Child fare for the journey made
The unhelpfulness of the staff on the phone is another issue and should be left until the penalty fare issue is sorted out.
Others may be able to give better advice. Write a draft with personal details omitted and I'm sure that help will be given
Yes I was thinking go with the date and time evidence as wrong on its own and only go into other stuff if they don't agree? I was just worried they would come back and say clerical error as there obviously was an incident just not when they said and wasn't handled as they said either. Thank you for your comments
If, "by definition" the Company agrees they are accusing the wrong person, it's surely case closed.
A circular argument we have had (and never resolved!) many times before. The Company is so certain that the accused is the person in the BodyCam, that they are preparing to prosecute him. But they won't release any footage because they accept your assertion that it's not him. Heads they win, tails you lose! The solution may be to ask for the footage before formally denying it is him.
Except that GDPR does not allow them to issue a copy of the video if there is confusion about the person's identity.
You cannot blame the railway company for abiding by the Law.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
