What constitutes "first opportunity to purchase"?

[Julia]

...Specifically, when the ticket you want to purchase is not available from the local TVM?

This arose last night - I work in Cambridge, live in St Neots, and was having a night out in London. I'm in a rush and only have time to get a travelcard at CBG, which is fine until time to come home. My normal modus operandi is to buy a single HIT-SNO and take care to get the stopping train. I get to KGX after the ticket office has closed, and the Virgin[*] TVMs there won't let you buy a ticket starting anywhere else. I take exception at being asked for £23.60 for a KGX-SNO single. No staff around to ask.

What I want to know is, would it be wrong simply to board the train and claim that either finding a member of staff on the train, or getting to SNO, would be my first opportunity to buy the ticket that I want? Clearly KGX is my first opportunity to buy some ticket.

As it happened, I avoided all doubt by getting the stopper towards CBG which was going first, bailing out at HIT and buying the single there...

[*] I mention this because the GTR TVMs elsewhere do have this option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An option to solve your problem would be to buy HIT-SNO online and collect it from a TVM at Kings Cross.

 

[LexyBoy]

This situation is covered by Condition 3 of the NRCoC. In essence, if the ticket you require is not available, you must buy a ticket which covers part of your journey and convert this to the correct fare at the first practical opportunity. In this case, you have already bought a ticket valid as far as Hitchin, so that opportunity is - in the opinion of most here who consider that you are not required to delay your journey - is at St Neots.

BUT: the ticket office at KX is open (according to NRE) until 0136 (0036 on Saturdays) - if it is open, then this is the first opportunity to buy and you must buy a ticket there. It may be more convenient to do so on arriving in London.

--
Edit: For a slightly cheaper option, consider instead buying a Whittlesea-London Off Peak Day Travelcard, route GTNORTHERN&CONCTS, at £36.80. Travel is permitted via either Peterborough or Cambridge on this ticket, and you may start/finish "short", so valid for Cambridge-London-St Neots (provided all travel is with Greater Northern). The saving is more worthwhile if you hold a Network Railcard, as this does not give a discount on the HIT-SNO ticket. If you don't have a Railcard, it's worth getting one if you make more than a couple of such journeys a year.

 

[Haywain]

I get to KGX after the ticket office has closed, and the Virgin[*] TVMs there won't let you buy a ticket starting anywhere else. I take exception at being asked for £23.60 for a KGX-SNO single. No staff around to ask.

When the main Travel Centre at Kings Cross is closed, you should use the night window which is found on platform 8 - there are large notices by the doors to the main Travel Centre detailing this.

 

[talltim]

BUT: the ticket office at KX is open (according to NRE) until 0136 (0036 on Saturdays)

Those are random times!

 

[Clip]

Those are random times!

Always been that way from memory and as my memory has failed me on this occasion I cant quite remember why. But it was for a good reason and I don't just mean for the lass who worked in there to give me tea and biscuits of a night time.

 

[Haywain]

Those are random times!

They are the times of the last trains from Kings Cross. The station closes on departure of those trains.

 

[sheff1]

The TVMs at the end of platform 9 at Kings Cross sell tickets from other stations (or, at least, they did when I was last there about 3 weeks ago).

 

[Hadders]

They are the times of the last trains from Kings Cross. The station closes on departure of those trains.

0026 used to be the time of the last train on Saturday's but I think they run a bit later now.

0135 (was 0136) is the last departure on other days.

 

[Julia]

When the main Travel Centre at Kings Cross is closed, you should use the night window which is found on platform 8 - there are large notices by the doors to the main Travel Centre detailing this.

Ah great - hadn't realised this, I just noticed the doors of the main travel centre were locked...

 

[Haywain]

0026 used to be the time of the last train on Saturday's but I think they run a bit later now.

0135 (was 0136) is the last departure on other days.

Picky!

If the departure of the last train is earlier the station will close, so it's not really important.

 

[island]

What I want to know is, would it be wrong simply to board the train and claim that either finding a member of staff on the train, or getting to SNO, would be my first opportunity to buy the ticket that I want? Clearly KGX is my first opportunity to buy some ticket.

Yes it would be wrong. You would be expected to use the night ticket office which is open later.

 

[t0ffeeman]

This situation is covered by Condition 3 of the NRCoC. In essence, if the ticket you require is not available, you must buy a ticket which covers part of your journey and convert this to the correct fare at the first practical opportunity. In this case, you have already bought a ticket valid as far as Hitchin, so that opportunity is - in the opinion of most here who consider that you are not required to delay your journey - is at St Neots.

BUT: the ticket office at KX is open (according to NRE) until 0136 (0036 on Saturdays) - if it is open, then this is the first opportunity to buy and you must buy a ticket there. It may be more convenient to do so on arriving in London.

--
Edit: For a slightly cheaper option, consider instead buying a Whittlesea-London Off Peak Day Travelcard, route GTNORTHERN&CONCTS, at £36.80. Travel is permitted via either Peterborough or Cambridge on this ticket, and you may start/finish "short", so valid for Cambridge-London-St Neots (provided all travel is with Greater Northern). The saving is more worthwhile if you hold a Network Railcard, as this does not give a discount on the HIT-SNO ticket. If you don't have a Railcard, it's worth getting one if you make more than a couple of such journeys a year.

When was the Network railcard valid north of Huntingdon or West of Ely?

 

[bb21]

If you knew that you were going to need to return to St Neots then surely your first opportunity would have been at Cambridge.

 

[yorkie]

But it's not a Cambridge-St Neots via London journey. It's two separate journeys.

So the first opportunity is at King's Cross (if the ticket office is open).

 

[455driver]

But it's not a Cambridge-St Neots via London journey. It's two separate journeys.

So the first opportunity is at King's Cross (if the ticket office is open).

Surely she could still have bought all the tickets at Cambridge.

 

[Starmill]

Surely she could still have bought all the tickets at Cambridge.

No reason why not. Or anywhere else for that matter, including online.

There is still a final oppourtunity to do so at King's Cross though.

As a matter of interest, one notes that only Virgin Trains East Coast TVM's inside gatelines offer the facility to purchase tickets from other origins, such as at Newcastle, Darlington and Peterborough. This is an example of where such a facility is useful, and is offered at almost all TVMs at London Overground and Southern, among others. It doesn't appear to cause any problems for them - is there any reason why it might for Virgin Trains East Coast?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....As a matter of interest, one notes that only Virgin Trains East Coast TVM's inside gatelines offer the facility to purchase tickets from other origins, such as at Newcastle, Darlington and Peterborough. This is an example of where such a facility is useful, and is offered at almost all TVMs at London Overground and Southern, among others. It doesn't appear to cause any problems for them - is there any reason why it might for Virgin Trains East Coast?

Doughnutting.

Southern and London Overground have a Penalty Fares scheme in place and roaming RPIs to enforce them.

Many short journeys will not benefit from Doughnutting, but the further you travel the more you stand to save.

....So the first opportunity is at King's Cross (if the ticket office is open).

Purely from a reading of the NRCoC, I can't argue with King's Cross being the first opportunity to pay for the return journey, however, also from a reading of the NRCoC, I could strongly argue with the bit in brackets, even if a guard or RPI takes a more lenient approach.

 

[yorkie]

Surely she could still have bought all the tickets at Cambridge.

Yes, tickets can be bought from almost anywhere, and some places sell tickets up to 1 year in advance, so she could have bought them at any number of places.

However there is no requirement to buy a ticket in advance for a later journey; the requirement to 'buy a ticket at the first opportunity' simply means on the first opportunity commencing from the station you start that journey. The requirement doesn't apply in advance of that.

 

[Haywain]

As a matter of interest, one notes that only Virgin Trains East Coast TVM's inside gatelines offer the facility to purchase tickets from other origins, such as at Newcastle, Darlington and Peterborough. This is an example of where such a facility is useful, and is offered at almost all TVMs at London Overground and Southern, among others. It doesn't appear to cause any problems for them - is there any reason why it might for Virgin Trains East Coast?

Probably just that most TVMs haven't done this until quite recently, and there has been a quite cautious view among most TOCs on people buying tickets to enable varieties of 'short faring'. The excess fare machines are all relatively new (in terms of location) and you can't really offer the machines without providing the facility.

 

[Tetchytyke]

there has been a quite cautious view among most TOCs on people buying tickets to enable varieties of 'short faring'.

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I can't help but wonder whether the actual issue the TOC fares managers are worried about is split ticketing. If you can only buy tickets for other origins (e.g. boundary zone) at the ticket office, and the ticket office is never open (hello London Midland *waves*), then people will inevitably be pushed towards buying the through single, even where they already hold a ticket for part of the journey.

A lot of people in the OP's position would just buy the single from Kings Cross rather than mess around getting off the train halfway home.

Doughnutting is an issue, but people who are organised enough to doughnut will probably buy online to reduce chances of detection.

 

[sheff1]

Doughnutting.

The location of the VTEC TVMs, inside the gateline, actually aids doughnutting.

 

[Starmill]

The location of the VTEC TVMs, inside the gateline, actually aids doughnutting.

And, indeed, short-faring.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doughnutting is an issue, but people who are organised enough to doughnut will probably buy online to reduce chances of detection.

Indeed. Being able to use a ticket machine only makes it very marginally more easy to doughnut. Using an Excess Fares TVM on the other hand makes it much much easier to short-fare than an Excess Fares counter or RPI.

 

[bb21]

But it's not a Cambridge-St Neots via London journey. It's two separate journeys.

So the first opportunity is at King's Cross (if the ticket office is open).

Aha.

Is it one return journey or is it two journeys?

(Ducking into my hiding place waiting for the bomb to explode. Not here to provide answers, simply some food for thought. Of course, enforceability makes this whole debate a little redundant in the OP's case, but academic discussion is still deeply loved by some on the forum.)

 

[yorkie]

It's a Cambridge to London journey followed by a London to St Neots journey.

(in order to avoid people claiming it's one journey, I would recommend keeping quiet about the intention of making a later journey from London to St Neots when you're at Cambridge next time!)