What actually constitutes checking a route on the NRE website?

[YorkC]

I've found a few interesting routes today where the NRE website and various booking engines will give a route but not offer any fares for sale. I'm happy to take these slightly more creative routes and have always been fine in the past.

As an example, here's York to Mexborough via Manchester Piccadilly (feel free to move if this is worth keeping on the DL...). It shows as a valid route using the new Yellow Pages. The NRE website, and other booking engines, offer routes for this but nowhere will sell a ticket for this route explicitly. Unsure if this link will work, but have a look at...

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...illy&saved=false&responseId=4&fareDisplayId=1

So my question is: does this process constitute checking and finding a route to be valid?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Unsure if this link will work, but have a look at...

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...illy&saved=false&responseId=4&fareDisplayId=1

EDIT for clarity:
No the link doesn't work- sorry!
(Don't know the answer to your question, I'll leave that to the experts).

 

[bb21]

It does in my opinion if you can find a website willing to sell this ticket for an itinerary via Manchester.

It indeed appears valid by the Routeing Guide but I struggle to get any booking engine to sell me this fare via Manchester, and NRE shows that you need more than one ticket to make this journey.

 

[YorkC]

It indeed appears valid by the Routeing Guide but I struggle to get any booking engine to sell me this fare via Manchester, and NRE shows that you need more than one ticket to make this journey.

Ah yes. Good spot. The confusing thing is that it says more than one ticket is needed, then just lists the Anytime Day Return as the ticket required.

(http://pbrd.co/1jk4LjA is what NRE shows, btw)

Booking engines will allow me to get this far, too, but won't sell me any tickets for the route:

http://pbrd.co/1ey4p6J

It's absolutely baffling because this (i.e. changing at Manchester) is the only way (as with a lot of routes listed in the Yellow Pages) to use the map combination specified (in this case, MN+DW). Why is that combination even specified in the routeing guide if it's literally impossible to buy a ticket on any route that uses those maps?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As I see it: Mexborough is associated with Swinton or Doncaster. Both stations pass the fares check.

York to Swinton is only valid on Map DS. This does not show Manchester.

York to Doncaster is valid on map DO & MN + DW. The latter combination does allow going via Manchester, however I suspect this is an error as this journey has never traditionally been valid via this circuitous route.

There is however an easement thus : "Customers travelling from Doncaster to Newcastle, Chester Le Street, Durham, Darlington, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Malton, Seamer or Scarborough in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Manchester Stations. This easement applies in both directions. "

Which will probably by declaring this journey void.

 

[bb21]

There is however an easement thus : "Customers travelling from Doncaster to Newcastle, Chester Le Street, Durham, Darlington, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Malton, Seamer or Scarborough in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Manchester Stations. This easement applies in both directions. "

Which will probably by declaring this journey void.

The way I see it is that he is not travelling from Doncaster, so the literal interpretation does not prevent him travelling this route.

 

[kieron]

Ah yes. Good spot. The confusing thing is that it says more than one ticket is needed, then just lists the Anytime Day Return as the ticket required.

(http://pbrd.co/1jk4LjA is what NRE shows, btw)

I see. I was wondering if you'd come across something more like the "We are sorry, we are not able to find any fares that match your journey details" message (and they should be sorry, as a Rail Ranger would meet this particular need perfectly well).

It's absolutely baffling because this (i.e. changing at Manchester) is the only way (as with a lot of routes listed in the Yellow Pages) to use the map combination specified (in this case, MN+DW). Why is that combination even specified in the routeing guide if it's literally impossible to buy a ticket on any route that uses those maps?

It's listed as a route between York and Doncaster. It is very easy to get an itinerary between those stations using those maps (although I haven't tried to find one which involves a train which stops at Mexborough).

There are 3 map combinations to consider with your journey, DS to Swinton, and DO and MN+DW to Doncaster. Both DS and MN+DW require you to pass through Mexborough en route to the final routeing point. NRE doesn't generally consider that to be valid on a ticket to Mexborough.

 

[Starmill]

As I see it: Mexborough is associated with Swinton or Doncaster. Both stations pass the fares check.

York to Swinton is only valid on Map DS. This does not show Manchester.

York to Doncaster is valid on map DO & MN + DW. The latter combination does allow going via Manchester, however I suspect this is an error as this journey has never traditionally been valid via this circuitous route.

There is however an easement thus : "Customers travelling from Doncaster to Newcastle, Chester Le Street, Durham, Darlington, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Malton, Seamer or Scarborough in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Manchester Stations. This easement applies in both directions. "

Which will probably by declaring this journey void.

So what you're saying is, it is valid, but you don't like it so it shouldn't be used?

 

[YorkC]

It's listed as a route between York and Doncaster. It is very easy to get an itinerary between those stations using those maps (although I haven't tried to find one which involves a train which stops at Mexborough).

Can't do it myself. Does it avoid Manchester and use Guide Bridge/Chinley?

 

[button_boxer]

If you're trying to use Doncaster as the routeing point instead of Swinton, isn't it an issue that you have to pass through Swinton in order to do York to Doncaster via Manchester?

 

[bb21]

If you're trying to use Doncaster as the routeing point instead of Swinton, isn't it an issue that you have to pass through Swinton in order to do York to Doncaster via Manchester?

I don't think that in itself is an issue.

 

[yorkie]

As for that easement, it does not apply to this journey. I'd also buy the ticket from Poppleton, so it doubly doesn't apply!

However anyone wanting to do this journey must buy the tickets soon because the Routeing Guide will obviously be amended shortly now that the TOCs (in particular TPE) are aware of it

 

[kieron]

Can't do it myself. Does it avoid Manchester and use Guide Bridge/Chinley?

Sorry, I think I may have made a mistake or two in my last post. If I ask it to go via Manchester and avoid Crossgates, it gives a route which follows the maps carefully (such as the second on the list), but doesn't list a fare for it, even as a combination of tickets.

One obvious criticism of the route in your screenshot is that it uses maps for York-Doncaster but never reaches Doncaster, but that's clearly not the problem.

 

[YorkC]

Sorry, I think I may have made a mistake or two in my last post. If I ask it to go via Manchester and avoid Crossgates, it gives a route which follows the maps carefully (such as the second on the list), but doesn't list a fare for it, even as a combination of tickets.

One obvious criticism of the route in your screenshot is that it uses maps for York-Doncaster but never reaches Doncaster, but that's clearly not the problem.

It's also not giving valid routes as far as I can see, anyway: York->Doncaster is the first leg of the route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for that easement, it does not apply to this journey. I'd also buy the ticket from Poppleton, so it doubly doesn't apply!

However anyone wanting to do this journey must buy the tickets soon because the Routeing Guide will obviously be amended shortly now that the TOCs (in particular TPE) are aware of it

But, in any case, isn't it invalid anyway under the new rules given that NRE won't give a route for the journey on one ticket?

 

[yorkie]

But, in any case, isn't it invalid anyway under the new rules given that NRE won't give a route for the journey on one ticket?

Under whose rules? where is this documented? Did DfT approve the introduction of such a rule? Were Passenger Focus consulted?

 

[YorkC]

Under whose rules? where is this documented? Did DfT approve the introduction of such a rule? Were Passenger Focus consulted?

So is it a general consensus that these updated "rules" are an unenforceable nonsense?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The way I see it is that he is not travelling from Doncaster, so the literal interpretation does not prevent him travelling this route.

But he is using a Doncaster as a Routeing point which may be why NRE is declaring it void.

So what you're saying is, it is valid, but you don't like it so it shouldn't be used?

No. What I am saying is that it has never been valid this way, even under old versions of the guide, is not even vaguely sensible, there is a negative easement which, depending on your interpretation renders it invalid, NRE says it is not valid and is fairly obviously an error.

Under whose rules? where is this documented? Did DfT approve the introduction of such a rule? Were Passenger Focus consulted?

That is somewhat irrelevant. The routeing guide says a journey should be validated by NRE. The fact that it may not have gone through the correct approval process is a different matter altogether and does not by default render what the guide says invalid. If you take that argument then I could argue that the changes which have allowed this route are invalid and a previous version of the guide should be used, which didn't allow it.

So is it a general consensus that these updated "rules" are an unenforceable nonsense?

No.

 

[YorkC]

If anyone's interested, I did manage to find a ticket in this fares cluster (£23.70 anytime return) for which booking engines will give me a reservation between York and Manchester...