What’s going on with Thameslink?

[Surreytraveller]

I've no idea. I've no experience on Southern, and never been to Purley.
I was replying to a general point.

In theory, there should be enough staff on duty. Purley has six platforms, four of which trains require despatching from on a normal basis.
But if you get a bit of late running, then it will inevitably affect dwell times, as obviously staff cannot be in two places at once.
It also seems that trains with power doors and DOO cameras require more staff to despatch than the old slam door trains did!

 

[MikeWM]

Have a look at Manchester Airport to Edinburgh

Ok, yes, that makes me feel a little better! Though I was probably looking for something a little more obviously commutable, that's a bit longer than I had in mind (admittedly I didn't specify that).

I'd missed the 'advanced options' part of RecentTT until I saw the extra columns in the above. So that's something else to play with, thanks

 

[WizCastro197]

In a positive update Purley has now gone self despatch which is good for timekerping on the 9Rs

I've no idea. I've no experience on Southern, and never been to Purley.
I was replying to a general point.

Perhaps you could as the in use Purley Island could have one to Reigate and one Attaching to London Bridge but it wouldn't be safe. At Redhill however, Platforms 1AB/2 are both dispatched by different people as there is a lot of buildings and clutter on that island so you can't see a train on platform 2 from 1 and and another on platform 1m but you can't see it from PLT2.

 

[Minstral25]

I've just spent a few minutes looking for somewhere that has worse performance over the last 20 weekdays on RecentTrainTimes than the below for Ely -> Cambridge North. (I failed).

View attachment 120144

Of the last 17 'normal timetable' weekdays, the 0917 has been cancelled twice, my usual train the 0947 five times (!), the 1018 twice, and the 1053 three times. That's an 18% *cancellation* rate, which I'd argue isn't really very good, to say the least.

The GA ex-Norwich's aren't doing great punctuality-wise either, but at least they have zero cancellations in this period.

On Thameslink you might try the service to Earlswood - Been pretty rough lately - I've added the % run as well as within 5 minutes stats

 

[WizCastro197]

On Thameslink you might try the service to Earlswood - Been pretty rough lately - I've added the % run as well as within 5 minutes stats
View attachment 120151

Awful
I have looked up ELD (Earlswood to London Victoria but its shows the TOC as Thameslink so I am confused. Will it show all GTR operated trains as TL even though they are sub branded? I know that it definitely is southern as the xx:31 from Earlswood to Victoria is Southern. and the xx:01

The 07:01 does okay but it gets worse from there...

 

[Minstral25]

Awful
I have looked up ELD (Earlswood to London Victoria but its shows the TOC as Thameslink so I am confused. Will it show all GTR operated trains as TL even though they are sub branded? I know that it definitely is southern as the xx:31 from Earlswood to Victoria is Southern. and the xx:01

The 07:01 does okay but it gets worse from there...

Yes - all GTR services are shown as TL on RTT.

Southern services are generally more reliable along the Redhill route than Thameslink. Warning though RTT often shows a train as calling if it passes through the station but doesn't stop so a lot of the Earlswood calls on my sheet actually didn't call which makes the numbers worse.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In theory, there should be enough staff on duty. Purley has six platforms, four of which trains require despatching from on a normal basis.
But if you get a bit of late running, then it will inevitably affect dwell times, as obviously staff cannot be in two places at once.
It also seems that trains with power doors and DOO cameras require more staff to despatch than the old slam door trains did!

Thameslink driver self despatch a 12 car 700 themselves now not sure about Southern trains but to be fair they have a better quality cameras and screens than the older electrostars although i don't know if the latter are receiving an upgrade as part of the current refurbishment programme. Staff are primarily needed at Purley to deal with attaching and detaching as well as the palaver that was required with rear unit of a 455 set needing to be locked out but looks like the On Track lot are no longer being deployed.

Travelling on this route for over 30 years slam doors were great but timekeeping improved once the elctrostars came in as despatch at East Croydon, Clapham Jcn etc was fraught with issues when the slam doors were in use. Things further improved with driver door release then driver self despatch. A late running Thameslink outside of busy periods can easily make up 10-15s/station call now.

 

[MikeWM]

Exciting update from the GN website:

A speed restriction is in place over defective track between Ely and Kings Lynn. As a result, trains running between these stations may be delayed.

Disruption is expected until at least the end of the day on Sunday 4 September.

From Saturday, 3 September

Great Northern are unable to run a direct service between London King's Cross and Ely / King's Lynn. This is likely to be ongoing until at least 18 September, however, this will be confirmed over the weekend, as Network Rail are still assessing the situation.

• London King's Cross to King's Lynn services will run between King's Lynn and Cambridge only
• London King's Cross to Ely services will not run

They're seriously proposing to cut the entire direct service from Ely to London for *over 2 weeks* even though the problem is elsewhere? Wonderful

 

[Surreytraveller]

Exciting update from the GN website:



They're seriously proposing to cut the entire direct service from Ely to London for *over 2 weeks* even though the problem is elsewhere? Wonderful

Seems sensible to keep the disruption isolated. As long as all the stock and crews are also kept isolated from the main service as well

 

[MikeWM]

Seems sensible to keep the disruption isolated. As long as all the stock and crews are also kept isolated from the main service as well

It isn't isolated though, when they are cancelling services that aren't affected by the problem.

Though looking at the timetable for tomorrow, they're not going to run any fasts *at all*, even starting back at Cambridge. The cynic in me suggests that, for tomorrow at least, this is actually more like this Saturday's random service cut due to lack of drivers, because that's exactly the service they ran a few Saturdays back when there wasn't this problem. It wouldn't be the first time GTR have used the excuse of engineering work to cover up their inability to run a service.

 

[Bald Rick]

It isn't isolated though, when they are cancelling services that aren't affected by the problem.

Though looking at the timetable for tomorrow, they're not going to run any fasts *at all*, even starting back at Cambridge. The cynic in me suggests that, for tomorrow at least, this is actually more like this Saturday's random service cut due to lack of drivers, because that's exactly the service they ran a few Saturdays back when there wasn't this problem. It wouldn't be the first time GTR have used the excuse of engineering work to cover up their inability to run a service.

Given what else is going on in the world of timetable and resource planning, what with the strikes imminent, I suspect that GTR will simply need to pull a suitable timetable and resource plan off the shelf to deal with a short notice event of this nature.

 

[MikeWM]

Given what else is going on in the world of timetable and resource planning, what with the strikes imminent, I suspect that GTR will simply need to pull a suitable timetable and resource plan off the shelf to deal with a short notice event of this nature.

Perhaps, but one would hope that said shelf would have a better contingency plan than what is being proposed here for when there are problems north of Ely, not least because that's a very unreliable section to begin with. There's no good reason whatever that Cambridge should lose its fast services to London just because something is broken near Kings Lynn (though as I say, I suspect that is more due to the usual Saturday driver shortage than anything else; I suspect the weekday timetable will look a little more regular from Cambridge southwards).

The connections for those of us north of Cambridge are also pretty awful, so it isn't a remotely well-planned 'emergency' timetable for those of us who rely on through trains. The hourly train from Cambridge to Ely and Kings Lynn leaves Cambridge at xx35, whereas the 'semi-fast' from St Pancras is scheduled to arrive at Cambridge at xx40. When I did this when this silly timetable was in operation a few Saturdays ago, as you can probably guess from those times, you arrive at Cambridge just in time to see the taillights of the service you need leaving the station, and have to sit around at Cambridge for another 50-something minutes waiting for the next one. What should be a 70-minute journey from London to Ely thus turns into a 140-minute one, even though the entire journey being made is nowhere near the area that actually has a problem.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The connections for those of us north of Cambridge are also pretty awful, so it isn't a remotely well-planned 'emergency' timetable for those of us who rely on through trains. The hourly train from Cambridge to Ely and Kings Lynn leaves Cambridge at xx35, whereas the 'semi-fast' from St Pancras is scheduled to arrive at Cambridge at xx40. When I did this when this silly timetable was in operation a few Saturdays ago, as you can probably guess from those times, you arrive at Cambridge just in time to see the taillights of the service you need leaving the station, and have to sit around at Cambridge for another 50-something minutes waiting for the next one. What should be a 70-minute journey from London to Ely thus turns into a 140-minute one, even though the entire journey being made is nowhere near the area that actually has a problem.

This is totally unacceptable and the railway needs to get a grip of this nonsense of not providing sensible connections and I do hope GBR are compelled to construct timetables that have a connection policy at its heart as this is key enabler for modal shift to really take hold.

 

[MikeWM]

This is totally unacceptable and the railway needs to get a grip of this nonsense of not providing sensible connections and I do hope GBR are compelled to construct timetables that have a connection policy at its heart as this is key enabler for modal shift to really take hold.

It isn't quite so bad for most of the day, at least to Ely, because there are the GA and XC services too, filling in some of the connection gaps. But by the evening they've thinned out (GA) or stopped (XC) and so you hit these large gaps.

I was going to go to London tomorrow (well, today now) but as doing so will now involve leaving earlier, sitting around at Cambridge for almost an hour, getting home an hour later than planned, and also having to sit on a Thameslink 700 for about two and a half hours, doing so now looks considerably less attractive. I'll probably cancel my plans and spend my money on something else.

The other problem is that it appears that nothing later than usual is planned to leave Cambridge going north, so to get home to Ely or Kings Lynn will involve leaving London about 35 minutes earlier than the usual last train at 2312 in order to get the last connection from Cambridge. Not a lot of use if you've got theatre tickets or similar.

--

Edit : well, I'm currently at Cambridge, and not only are the fasts cancelled as we already know, but so are the 1424 Brighton and the 1427 stopper. So the next London GN/TL train is the 1454 Brighton, assuming they can work out how to run that. One train in an hour when there should be five! Rather glad I cancelled my plans to go to London now.

 

[Magdalen Road]

It isn't quite so bad for most of the day, at least to Ely, because there are the GA and XC services too, filling in some of the connection gaps. But by the evening they've thinned out (GA) or stopped (XC) and so you hit these large gaps.

I was going to go to London tomorrow (well, today now) but as doing so will now involve leaving earlier, sitting around at Cambridge for almost an hour, getting home an hour later than planned, and also having to sit on a Thameslink 700 for about two and a half hours, doing so now looks considerably less attractive. I'll probably cancel my plans and spend my money on something else.

The other problem is that it appears that nothing later than usual is planned to leave Cambridge going north, so to get home to Ely or Kings Lynn will involve leaving London about 35 minutes earlier than the usual last train at 2312 in order to get the last connection from Cambridge. Not a lot of use if you've got theatre tickets or similar.

--

Edit : well, I'm currently at Cambridge, and not only are the fasts cancelled as we already know, but so are the 1424 Brighton and the 1427 stopper. So the next London GN/TL train is the 1454 Brighton, assuming they can work out how to run that. One train in an hour when there should be five! Rather glad I cancelled my plans to go to London now.

I keep checking the Great Northern site for an update on what they are going to run - it's still saying disrupted until at least 18th September with no details as to what will actually run (or when) between Ely and London.
What am I supposed to tell my employer? Currently I have no idea what time I might get into work on Monday (usually get the first train) nor when I might get home. At least from London I can get the St Pancras fast to Cambridge. Out of desperation I contacted a local taxi firm*, £40 to Cambridge so I could get a St Pancras train in the morning They're reluctant to do an early taxi and I don't really want to spend the money. However, based on the recent timings, it could take over 2 hours for the train journey (an extra hour), then I'd have to still work my hours, with only an hourly service back to Cambridge with a change to Ely. Basically I'll be getting home an hour before going to bed!

*Also can't afford to spend £40 on each commute on top of the season ticket

 

[Envy123]

I've said it before, but I chose my location due to intercity services being available to and from London. No need to rely on just GTR. Only if the whole ECML is down, LNER is fully down. But with GTR, any little thing and it's pure chaos.

I'm not even sure of moving to St Albans with more money, because I'd be back to exclusively dealing with GTR.

 

[Magdalen Road]

I've said it before, but I chose my location due to intercity services being available to and from London. No need to rely on just GTR. Only if the whole ECML is down, LNER is fully down. But with GTR, any little thing and it's pure chaos.

I'm not even sure of moving to St Albans with more money, because I'd be back to exclusively dealing with GTR.

House prices south of here are significantly more expensive so that isn't an option to relocate.

 

[Envy123]

House prices south of here are significantly more expensive so that isn't an option to relocate.

I may have a choice in the future to relocate south again, but judging GTR's antics, I think I'll stay in Peterborough.

 

[Magdalen Road]

I may have a choice in the future to relocate south again, but judging GTR's antics, I think I'll stay in Peterborough.

Thing is, generally there are options, albeit some slower, if you can get to Cambridge e.g. Liverpool St services - getting to Cambridge is part of the problem at the moment.
Moving closer to or into Cambridge isn't an option due to the price differential.

 

[Envy123]

Thing is, generally there are options, albeit some slower, if you can get to Cambridge e.g. Liverpool St services - getting to Cambridge is part of the problem at the moment.
Moving closer to or into Cambridge isn't an option due to the price differential.

I tried GA from Cambridge and it was fine, though pretty slow. LNER is much faster and comfortable.

And I’d probably get criticised for this but I wouldn’t like to live in Cambridge. Use its facilities and dine in its restaurants, sure.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think everyone's going to have to wait for this new company to buy out Go-Ahead to see what happens. Senior management are completely disinterested (as well as incompetent).
This new Australian company are apparently not interested in the rail side of the business, they only want the buses. It'll have to wait to see how they end up off-loading the railway

 

[Bikeman78]

One of the major difficulties is how segmented the driver route knowledge is on Thameslink. Almost all drivers only have the route knowledge to drive 'their' main route. For instance, Peterborough drivers don't sign to Cambridge so couldn't fill in for uncovered Cambridge turns.

A rather backward step. Back in GN days, all depots signed all traction and most routes. Only Cambridge and King's Lynn drivers went to King's Lynn and I don't think the latter signed Hitchin to Peterborough.

 

[MikeWM]

I keep checking the Great Northern site for an update on what they are going to run - it's still saying disrupted until at least 18th September with no details as to what will actually run (or when) between Ely and London.

I do find the contempt they appear to have for their passengers to be quite staggering. I've not a clue what will run just 12 hours from now either, though fortunately I do have alternatives and it looks like GA will be getting my business for the next few weeks. After the fiasco of the last few weeks I was considering that anyway, even before this new mess.

I note that today they do seem to be bothering to run some fasts between Cambridge and Kings Cross at least - which rather prompts the question why they couldn't do so yesterday, but I suspect we all know that was actually due to the neverending lack of drivers issue rather than the issues further north.

--

I tried GA from Cambridge and it was fine, though pretty slow. LNER is much faster and comfortable.

I used GA almost exclusively for years between Cambridge and London at weekends, because the weekend GN service has been totally unreliable for 8 years now, pretty much since the day they took over the francise.

The problem with that now is you're looking at a 720 rather than a 379, which is a major step backwards in comfort and ambience when you're doing leisure travel. I'm not quite sure what railway god Cambridge offended, but not so long ago the majority of trains at weekends between Cambridge and London were 365s or 379s, two of the nicest trains on the network for passenger experience. Now you get 700s and 720s, two of the worst. At least we still have the 387s usually, although not yesterday when all the 'fasts' were cancelled.

And I’d probably get criticised for this but I wouldn’t like to live in Cambridge. Use its facilities and dine in its restaurants, sure.

I did live in Cambridge for about 20 years and I totally agree - it is far from the city it was when I first moved there, in the end I was really quite unhappy living in the place. I moved to Ely just over 5 years ago and that was definitely the right move for me. Cambridge is still there for regular visits but I live in a much nicer place.

 

[Magdalen Road]

I do find the contempt they appear to have for their passengers to be quite staggering. I've not a clue what will run just 12 hours from now either, though fortunately I do have alternatives and it looks like GA will be getting my business for the next few weeks. After the fiasco of the last few weeks I was considering that anyway, even before this new mess.

I note that today they do seem to be bothering to run some fasts between Cambridge and Kings Cross at least - which rather prompts the question why they couldn't do so yesterday, but I suspect we all know that was actually due to the neverending lack of drivers issue rather than the issues further north.

They seem totally unbothered about the disruption they are causing by the approach to dealing with the track issues. Less than 12 hours before I'm supposed to be commuting and the banner (last updated 1204) still says that Network Rail are assessing the situation. So it's the roulette of getting to the station to see what's running, then it changing 5 minutes before the train is due to the mysterious 'Delayed'. Not great for one's stress levels.
I really don't like using the GA service, as it takes so much longer (compared to the normal GNR service) and means using the tube, which as I hate enclosed spaces is a bit challenging. The Ely - Tottenham Hale direct gets me to work 2 hours later than usual!
They should be giving season ticket holders compensation.

 

[Envy123]

I used GA almost exclusively for years between Cambridge and London at weekends, because the weekend GN service has been totally unreliable for 8 years now, pretty much since the day they took over the francise.

The problem with that now is you're looking at a 720 rather than a 379, which is a major step backwards in comfort and ambience when you're doing leisure travel. I'm not quite sure what railway god Cambridge offended, but not so long ago the majority of trains at weekends between Cambridge and London were 365s or 379s, two of the nicest trains on the network for passenger experience. Now you get 700s and 720s, two of the worst. At least we still have the 387s usually, although not yesterday when all the 'fasts' were cancelled.



I did live in Cambridge for about 20 years and I totally agree - it is far from the city it was when I first moved there, in the end I was really quite unhappy living in the place. I moved to Ely just over 5 years ago and that was definitely the right move for me. Cambridge is still there for regular visits but I live in a much nicer place.

Yeah, Cambridge really got shafted in terms of trains and reliability. Peterborough’s service is a lot better, though it’s probably because it’s a major hub on the ECML. Azumas may be flawed but at least it’s a pleasant ride to London, unlike the GTR and GA trains.

And Cambridge to me kinda feels a bit tired and the opening times of Grafton are very bad, compared to Queensgate.

 

[philjo]

The journey planners are now showing the Kings Lynn services only running between Kings Lynn and Cambridge all day tomorrow. So no fast services between Cambridge and Kings Cross. Some of the morning peak Cambridge to Brighton services have been cancelled recently due to either lack of driver or a train fault so I suspect a lot of Royston, Baldock and Letchworth passengers may be on the stopper….

 

[Magdalen Road]

Yes it's a shuttle service only. There's a 30 min connection between the first King's Lynn and the next available fast from Cambridge to King's Cross (there is a 54min service running that I saw). The St Pancras train which leaves before this might be a better bet *if* it runs. Either way, going to be late for work!
I also don't believe the timings of the King's Lynn to Cambridge shuttle, as it's showing the usual times rather than the slow running of late.
The services from London northbound are dreadful, one slow an hour IIRC. It's going to be super busy.

Why have I got a season ticket?

 

[Bikeman78]

The journey planners are now showing the Kings Lynn services only running between Kings Lynn and Cambridge all day tomorrow. So no fast services between Cambridge and Kings Cross. Some of the morning peak Cambridge to Brighton services have been cancelled recently due to either lack of driver or a train fault so I suspect a lot of Royston, Baldock and Letchworth passengers may be on the stopper….

No fast trains at all? So the whole of the King's Cross to Ely/King's Lynn service has been reduced to an hourly shuttle from Cambridge to King's Lynn? Have I understood that correctly?

 

[philjo]

No fast trains at all? So the whole of the King's Cross to Ely/King's Lynn service has been reduced to an hourly shuttle from Cambridge to King's Lynn? Have I understood that correctly?

That is what the journey planners are showing for Monday. They are showing the 0609 Cambridge to Kings Cross running (that one starts from Cambridge) but the journey planners are showing that all other fasts do not run south of Cambridge all day.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I can get if NR jumped GN with minimal notice they haven't had time to deal with consequences but its just plain nonsense that with all the drivers released by cancelling the 1Txx they can't cobble up at least an hourly fast Cambridge service.