What’s going on with Thameslink?

[Minstral25]

Issues in the core today 9Rxx cancelled off of course but don't worry say Thameslink you can use your ticket on Metrobus to Gatwick whose routes don't go anywhere near Earlswood or Salfords stations

All 9J's are expected to stop at Earlswood and Salfords, plus they are organising extra stops at Norwood Junction during the Peaks - allegedly

In the grand scheme of things, the stops on the A23 aren't that far away from Earlswood and Salfords stations.

Err? both Earlswood and Salfords stations are about 300 yards from the nearest bus stops on the A23

Buses no longer pass Earlswood Station directly as the bus stop there has been taken out of use (except 430/435 on other side of tracks for which ticket acceptance is not granted), so it's a quarter mile walk to the A23.

It is just under half a mile to the bus stop at Salfords which it has always been.

I would not call either of those "not far away" for a less able (possibly elderly) person to walk

 

[paul1609]

All 9J's are expected to stop at Earlswood and Salfords, plus they are organising extra stops at Norwood Junction during the Peaks - allegedly





Buses no longer pass Earlswood Station directly as the bus stop there has been taken out of use (except 430/435 on other side of tracks for which ticket acceptance is not granted), so it's a quarter mile walk to the A23.

It is just under half a mile to the bus stop at Salfords which it has always been.

I would not call either of those "not far away" for a less able (possibly elderly) person to walk

According to Google Maps the walk from Salford Station to Brighton Rd/ Lodge Lane Bus Stop along the footpath from the station road is 0.2 miles taking 4 mins.
From Church Road Bus Stop on the A23 again its 0.2 miles 4 mins to Earlswood Station.
Realistically the number of elderley people that live closer to the station than the bus stop must be approaching zero as those distances include station approach roads in both cases.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

According to Google Maps the walk from Salford Station to Brighton Rd/ Lodge Lane Bus Stop along the footpath from the station road is 0.2 miles taking 4 mins.

Its further than that as when you come off that footpath you have to walk down to the bus stop and then if you don't want to chance trying to get across the A23 dual carriageway the pelican crossing is even further. To be fair though even RRB have never served Salfords.

Why Thameslink can't just state on their various media feeds that the Horsham to Peterborough service will stop additionally at these stations at an approx time is beyond me rather than telling people to use Metrobus. Anyhow at least it now seems to be business as usual to get 9Jxx to stop when they pull the 9R's although with POSA working along there it ought not to be needed.

Oh and i see teh signalling has fallen over at Haywards Heath now although looks like Southern are bearing the brunt of that with the GX services canned off.

 

[GordonT]

Its further than that as when you come off that footpath you have to walk down to the bus stop and then if you don't want to chance trying to get across the A23 dual carriageway the pelican crossing is even further. To be fair though even RRB have never served Salfords.

Why Thameslink can't just state on their various media feeds that the Horsham to Peterborough service will stop additionally at these stations at an approx time is beyond me rather than telling people to use Metrobus. Anyhow at least it now seems to be business as usual to get 9Jxx to stop when they pull the 9R's although with POSA working along there it ought not to be needed.

Oh and i see teh signalling has fallen over at Haywards Heath now although looks like Southern are bearing the brunt of that with the GX services canned off.

The recurring nature of signalling faults within the core and at various locations along the Brighton line seems to be the main undermining factor of the timetabled operation these days. Edit: Not long after posting the foregoing a points failure reported at Brighton.

 

[Minstral25]

Its further than that as when you come off that footpath you have to walk down to the bus stop and then if you don't want to chance trying to get across the A23 dual carriageway the pelican crossing is even further. To be fair though even RRB have never served Salfords.

Why Thameslink can't just state on their various media feeds that the Horsham to Peterborough service will stop additionally at these stations at an approx time is beyond me rather than telling people to use Metrobus. Anyhow at least it now seems to be business as usual to get 9Jxx to stop when they pull the 9R's although with POSA working along there it ought not to be needed.

Oh and i see teh signalling has fallen over at Haywards Heath now although looks like Southern are bearing the brunt of that with the GX services canned off.

Exactly - Thameslink cannot announce the times in advance and they tend to stop calling unless they are reminded constantly. Two hour gap this afternoon Northbound because they "forgot" (My word) to stop the 9Js

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly - Thameslink cannot announce the times in advance and they tend to stop calling unless they are reminded constantly. Two hour gap this afternoon Northbound because they "forgot" (My word) to stop the 9Js

Or its a driver refusing a stop order which is their prerogative I believe

 

[43066]

Or its a driver refusing a stop order which is their prerogative I believe

Nope, that would be a fail to call.

I’ve tried to work out an operational reason for the services not stopping additionally as suggested above (I sign neither location nor traction)… Short platforms possibly?

Other than that, I’m struggling.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Nope, that would be a fail to call.

its not a scheduled stop though so does that still apply?

I’ve tried to work out an operational reason for the services not stopping additionally as suggested above (I sign neither location nor traction)… Short platforms possibly?

No they have SDO

Other than that, I’m struggling.

So are those of us who wanted to get to Earlswood!

 

[43066]

its not a scheduled stop though so does that still apply?

Yes absolutely. If you’re given a stop order it’s the same as a diagrammed stop for these purposes.

No they have SDO

Hmm. Not sure that’s entirely correct outside the core, where locations aren’t balised. The ex Cambridge units will all be FLUs, are those platforms too short?

So are those of us who wanted to get to Earlswood!

Indeed. Clearly not ideal and some explanation should be given (hopefully on here if not in public).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes absolutely. If you’re given a stop order it’s the same as a diagrammed stop for these purposes.



Hmm. Not sure that’s entirely correct outside the core, where locations aren’t balised. The ex Cambridge units will all be FLUs, are those platforms too short?

I live on a route with plenty of less than 12 coach stations and the SDO works fine at all of them. Not sure they use balises though just GPS?

Indeed. Clearly not ideal and some explanation should be given (hopefully on here if not in public).

well you can be totally sure the public won't be told and the station staff will just shrug their shoulders but hardly their fault they are on the front line not sitting in the ROC out of touch with reality.

 

[43066]

I live on a route with plenty of less than 12 coach stations and the SDO works fine at all of them. Not sure they use balises though just GPS?

Fair enough. I know they can be opened on the wrong side, or at least could be when they were introduced. I don’t sign them so can’t comment.

well you can be totally sure the public won't be told and the station staff will just shrug their shoulders but hardly their fault they are on the front line not sitting in the ROC out of touch with reality.

Agreed. Hence I’m hoping there’s some sensible operational reason for it, because otherwise it sounds very poor, at least on the face of it!

@Bald Rick might be able to shed some light…

 

[Minstral25]

Yes absolutely. If you’re given a stop order it’s the same as a diagrammed stop for these purposes.



Hmm. Not sure that’s entirely correct outside the core, where locations aren’t balised. The ex Cambridge units will all be FLUs, are those platforms too short?



Indeed. Clearly not ideal and some explanation should be given (hopefully on here if not in public).

I'm afraid they seem to set up for a couple of hours then "forget" to add more trains when disruption extends. It is a problem that Control need to sort out. Drivers really should not have a valid reason to refuse as it is normal practice to call when 9R's taken out, but control should ensure they get PNB's as necessary. Don't forget a lot of South of London Drivers are not driving 9R's at this time.

Earlswood gets 12 coach Thameslink trains between Bedford and Gatwick so the station is set up in the software for SDO anyway (as is the whole route to both Horsham and Brighton).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm afraid they seem to set up for a couple of hours then "forget" to add more trains when disruption extends. It is a problem that Control need to sort out. Drivers really should not have a valid reason to refuse as it is normal practice to call when 9R's taken out, but control should ensure they get PNB's as necessary. Don't forget a lot of South of London Drivers are not driving 9R's at this time.

From my daily travels its only when there is significant disruption do the 9Js get stop orders they won't do it even when two on the trot have been cancelled.

 

[Minstral25]

From my daily travels its only when there is significant disruption do the 9Js get stop orders they won't do it even when two on the trot have been cancelled.

It's different when 9R's are taken out deliberately for the day to when there is a couple of cancellations. Today they were withdrawn at around 10am for rest of day - hence need to stop all day

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's different when 9R's are taken out deliberately for the day to when there is a couple of cancellations. Today they were withdrawn at around 10am for rest of day - hence need to stop all day

Yup I get that but if we really want to encourage people to shift to the train and stay with it we shouldn't abandon passengers when its perfectly plausible to provide an alternative so the 9Js should call at Earlswood & Salfords and the 9Rs should backfit Merstham and Coulsdon Sth.

 

[Minstral25]

Yup I get that but if we really want to encourage people to shift to the train and stay with it we shouldn't abandon passengers when its perfectly plausible to provide an alternative so the 9Js should call at Earlswood & Salfords and the 9Rs should backfit Merstham and Coulsdon Sth.

I think exactly that has been told to Thameslink many times but they just don't care. 9R's do not cover MHM & CDS as Victoria trains call, ELD & SAF are worse as no alternative trains except peaks.

Medium term need to look at stopping patterns along Redhill route to secure a better service. 2018 plan was to get P3 at Reigate, Bedford service transfers to terminate at Reigate and Southern's Victoria service would take stopping pattern to Three Bridges (preferable to Horsham too) instead of Reigate which restricts train length. That isn't happening now, following levelling down the south, so route pattern needs revisiting.

 

[whoosh]

One of the major difficulties is how segmented the driver route knowledge is on Thameslink. Almost all drivers only have the route knowledge to drive 'their' main route. For instance, Peterborough drivers don't sign to Cambridge so couldn't fill in for uncovered Cambridge turns.

Peterborough Depot do sign to Cambridge, but I don't think they sign any yards there.

The problem is that it was the biggest depot which required all it's drivers to learn a new route (to Horsham). The other depots were either much smaller, or were split into links where only half the drivers needed to learn anything new in a substantial way. Cambridge Depot and Brighton Depot - only half learnt the route between the two, the other half of Cambridge were to learn Maidstone which hasn't happened, and the other half of Brighton still go to Bedford.

A large minority of Peterborough Depot still haven't learnt to Horsham I understand. This results in swapping over at Finsbury Park on a large number of turns.

So what you said above about signing 'their' main route, well in effect, a large contingent at that depot only signs half 'their' main route.

The ones who do sign to Horsham can cover a Cambridge turn north of Three Bridges.

 

[43066]

I'm afraid they seem to set up for a couple of hours then "forget" to add more trains when disruption extends. It is a problem that Control need to sort out. Drivers really should not have a valid reason to refuse as it is normal practice to call when 9R's taken out, but control should ensure they get PNB's as necessary. Don't forget a lot of South of London Drivers are not driving 9R's at this time.

The issue might be the mechanics of how it’s set up. You can’t just stop somewhere because you feel like it (that would be stopping out of course). Basically you need an amended diagram, a stop order or an instruction from the signaller.

A large minority of Peterborough Depot still haven't learnt to Horsham I understand. This results in swapping over at Finsbury Park on a large number of turns.

That seems odd when the whole ethos of Thameslink was to eliminate crew changes en route, hence why they closed Blackfriars depot.

 

[Edsmith]

The issue might be the mechanics of how it’s set up. You can’t just stop somewhere because you feel like it (that would be stopping out of course). Basically you need an amended diagram, a stop order or an instruction from the signaller.



That seems odd when the whole ethos of Thameslink was to eliminate crew changes en route, hence why they closed Blackfriars depot.

That's what I thought that Peterborough drivers went through to Horsham and vice versa.

 

[miklcct]

I have become a victim of crew shortage again on my usual commute (17:43 Cricklewood to Sutton (via Mitcham Junction), then officially 18:03 to Stratford but 17:51 in practice).

Unfortunately the generous connection time at West Hampstead means that I can never have 15 minutes late (I missed the official 18:03 Overground connection, and the following train was running late, yet the official delay was still only 10 minutes) compared to a valid itinerary no matter how many trains have been cancelled by Thameslink as long as a connection to Overground is involved, which means it's not possible to extract any money from my season ticket from Thameslink cancellations despite making multiple journeys per day every day during the validity period.

 

[MikeWM]

Well, the GN side seemed to manage a week or so without major problems, but back to normal today it seems - stuck at Ely once more, 0947 and 1018 both cancelled to Cambridge North, so will be 40 minutes or so late for work, again.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In a positive update Purley has now gone self despatch which is good for timekerping on the 9Rs

 

[Fred26]

In a positive update Purley has now gone self despatch which is good for timekerping on the 9Rs

Are you suggesting that Dispatchers delay the trains?

 

[Watershed]

Are you suggesting that Dispatchers delay the trains?

The involvement of dispatchers undoubtedly increases the dwell time.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The involvement of dispatchers undoubtedly increases the dwell time.

I concur with this. You watch them at East Croydon if they have two trains on an island platform.

 

[Fred26]

The involvement of dispatchers undoubtedly increases the dwell time.

There is doubt. A lot, in my mind.

I concur with this. You watch them at East Croydon if they have two trains on an island platform.

Nobody can dispatch two trains at once. Is two trains at the same time common at Purley?

 

[Surreytraveller]

There is doubt. A lot, in my mind.



Nobody can dispatch two trains at once. Is two trains at the same time common at Purley?

How many staff do they have? If there's not enough to dispatch two trains at once, then that will increase dwell times

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

D

How many staff do they have? If there's not enough to dispatch two trains at once, then that will increase dwell times

Don't forget you have the splitting and attaching at Purley. That takes up staff time as well

 

[MikeWM]

I've just spent a few minutes looking for somewhere that has worse performance over the last 20 weekdays on RecentTrainTimes than the below for Ely -> Cambridge North. (I failed).



Of the last 17 'normal timetable' weekdays, the 0917 has been cancelled twice, my usual train the 0947 five times (!), the 1018 twice, and the 1053 three times. That's an 18% *cancellation* rate, which I'd argue isn't really very good, to say the least.

The GA ex-Norwich's aren't doing great punctuality-wise either, but at least they have zero cancellations in this period.

 

[Fred26]

How many staff do they have? If there's not enough to dispatch two trains at once, then that will increase dwell times

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

D
Don't forget you have the splitting and attaching at Purley. That takes up staff time as well

I've no idea. I've no experience on Southern, and never been to Purley.
I was replying to a general point.

 

[Watershed]

I've just spent a few minutes looking for somewhere that has worse performance over the last 20 weekdays on RecentTrainTimes than the below for Ely -> Cambridge North. (I failed).

View attachment 120144

Of the last 17 'normal timetable' weekdays, the 0917 has been cancelled twice, my usual train the 0947 five times (!), the 1018 twice, and the 1053 three times. That's an 18% *cancellation* rate, which I'd argue isn't really very good, to say the least.

The GA ex-Norwich's aren't doing great punctuality-wise either, but at least they have zero cancellations in this period.

Have a look at Manchester Airport to Edinburgh:



Over the last 100 days, an average of 57% of services were cancelled. The worst performer (the 18:10 from Manchester Airport) has only actually ran 26% of the time.

And that's without even looking at Saturdays, let alone Sundays, where there hasn't been a single service between Lancaster and Carlisle for months.

Now, to be fair, a lot of those are part cancellations. But even that is going to cause a hefty delay and associated inconvenience.

Rest assured, there are passengers getting a much worse service!