What’s going on with Thameslink?

[43066]

I quite agree.
“Depot specific” route knowledge is another term for cost cutting.
As an example At my depot (Orpington) all the ex Blackfriars drivers signed Bedford to Brighton via LBG and a few signed a couple of other routes. ALL drivers at some point signed Luton to Bedford.
Now we all only sign as far as Luton.
I can’t speak for other depots but as it stands at the moment, we literally cannot cover any other depot work unless it goes via the Catford loop and then, only as far as Luton.
Very short sighted.

Out of interest do you guys sign to Lewisham via Grove Park, or Beckenham Junction - Lewisham via Beckenham curve and the mid-Kent line?

 

[WizCastro197]

I see that Thameslink cancelled its Cambridge - Brighton services yesterday, not surprisingly resulting in a lot of overcrowding. Staffing is obviously an issue during bank holiday weekends when you have a staff shortage, but my question is would it be possible to cancel less busy services? (From observation, trains terminating at Gatwick & Three Bridges had plenty of spare seats) Would there be difficulties with a lack of route knowledge, the requirement for taxis between locations and drivers goung out of hours, etc, or could it be done?

Yes. Gatwick Express services towards Brighton from Victoria made additional stops at Hawywards Heath. Presumably to fill in some service gaps from the cancelled Thameslink services. Eastbourne and Ore services made additional stops at Three Bridges. I will not be reported for Incorrect or Misleading as I was actually at Victoria yesterday.

 

[Need2]

Out of interest do you guys sign to Lewisham via Grove Park, or Beckenham Junction - Lewisham via Beckenham curve and the mid-Kent line?

Nope, we were meant to sign BFR via LBG but that never happened!
Beckenham Junction to BFR we do.
We, and it seems all TL and GN depots can only cover a very small part of a very small amount of other routes.

 

[ComUtoR]

Very short sighted.

Or good planning, depending on the way you look at it.

The whole route specific Thameslink has a little bit of history. Where you around before the new depots were created ?

 

[43066]

Nope, we were meant to sign BFR via LBG but that never happened!
Beckenham Junction to BFR we do.
We, and it seems all TL and GN depots can only cover a very small part of a very small amount of other routes.

Okay, so you don’t sign London Bridge at all and just the Chathams via Herne Hill or Catford loop via Denmark Hill? That’s more restrictive than I realised.

Assume you must also go from Sevenoaks - Orpy via Knockholt for diversions and ECS moves to and from Orpy and Bellingham sidings?

Do you run into Victoria at all for stabling? There was a period where SE Orpington had that as a night turn. IIRC it was into Victoria around midnight, wait around for a few hours, ECS to Blackfriars then in service all shacks to Orpy. Grim!

 

[Surreytraveller]

I quite agree.
“Depot specific” route knowledge is another term for cost cutting.
As an example At my depot (Orpington) all the ex Blackfriars drivers signed Bedford to Brighton via LBG and a few signed a couple of other routes. ALL drivers at some point signed Luton to Bedford.
Now we all only sign as far as Luton.
I can’t speak for other depots but as it stands at the moment, we literally cannot cover any other depot work unless it goes via the Catford loop and then, only as far as Luton.
Very short sighted.

The other side of the coin is, in order to keep up route knowledge, diagrams would have to be more complicated. Which means more driver displacement during disruption (if it could get any worse!)

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Gatwick Express services towards Brighton from Victoria made additional stops at Hawywards Heath.

Whilst it is slightly off topic, it is interesting to note that this will be an occurence for all GX services from the December timetable change according to RTT. If the reason you suggested is assumed to be correct, it's certainly not an optimistic outlook for TL services going forward.

 

[bramling]

The other side of the coin is, in order to keep up route knowledge, diagrams would have to be more complicated. Which means more driver displacement during disruption (if it could get any worse!)

I’ve always thought that having people doing different routes within a shift doesn’t actually cause that much upset during disruption. Indeed it can help as it spreads the recovery workload, and can inject some right-time services / crews into an otherwise disrupted line-up.

What is more of an issue is the amount of slack provided. If a driver is due to get off train A and get straight on to train B then that’s going to cause problems no matter where they’ve come from or are going to.

Same with crew reliefs, in some ways the more the better, as it allows more things to be done.

In the case of Horsham-Peterborough, on paper Cambridge is an almost ideal divert as the running time is similar. There is the issue over what you do with a 12-car train once there, however.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I’ve always thought that having people doing different routes within a shift doesn’t actually cause that much upset during disruption. Indeed it can help as it spreads the recovery workload, and can inject some right-time services / crews into an otherwise disrupted line-up.

What is more of an issue is the amount of slack provided. If a driver is due to get off train A and get straight on to train B then that’s going to cause problems no matter where they’ve come from or are going to.

Same with crew reliefs, in some ways the more the better, as it allows more things to be done.

In the case of Horsham-Peterborough, on paper Cambridge is an almost ideal divert as the running time is similar. There is the issue over what you do with a 12-car train once there, however.

All that does is spread disruption!
If you've got a conductor and a driver who both work the train to its destination and back, and its running 60 minutes late, its easy to deal with the late running by terminating the train short.
If the train does one thing, the driver another, and the guard something else, one late running train had suddenly become three late running trains

 

[ComUtoR]

If the train does one thing, the driver another, and the guard something else, one late running train had suddenly become three late running trains

It doesn't have to be diagrammed that way.

 

[bramling]

All that does is spread disruption!
If you've got a conductor and a driver who both work the train to its destination and back, and its running 60 minutes late, its easy to deal with the late running by terminating the train short.
If the train does one thing, the driver another, and the guard something else, one late running train had suddenly become three late running trains

I’m not talking about the train, driver and guard all doing different things. But I don’t think there’s a problem with, for example, a Peterborough to King’s Cross train or driver being booked to work to Cambridge on its next trip.

 

[Fred26]

Last Kings Cross - Peterborough cancelled tonight.
Bus Kings Cross - Hitchin & St Neots - Peterborough.
Nothing Hitchin - St Neots.

Where control think Hitchin staff are supposed to get taxis from at that time on a Monday morning is anyone's guess.
Time and time again, whatever problems are caused by Thameslink, Control make it worse - worse for the passengers, worse for the staff.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I’m not talking about the train, driver and guard all doing different things. But I don’t think there’s a problem with, for example, a Peterborough to King’s Cross train or driver being booked to work to Cambridge on its next trip.

If drivers and stock stay together it makes things easier

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

Last Kings Cross - Peterborough cancelled tonight.
Bus Kings Cross - Hitchin & St Neots - Peterborough.
Nothing Hitchin - St Neots.

Where control think Hitchin staff are supposed to get taxis from at that time on a Monday morning is anyone's guess.
Time and time again, whatever problems are caused by Thameslink, Control make it worse - worse for the passengers, worse for the staff.

Is it control? If there's no driver for the last train, there's no driver for the last train. They haven't got a magic wand

 

[Failed Unit]

If drivers and stock stay together it makes things easier

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==


Is it control? If there's no driver for the last train, there's no driver for the last train. They haven't got a magic wand

Back in the old WAGN days they did exactly that. We had many times sat on a train waiting foe a driver. Next platform a driver and passengers waiting for a train. Very early I’m that franchise they attempted to keep driver and train together.

 

[JonathanH]

Where control think Hitchin staff are supposed to get taxis from at that time on a Monday morning is anyone's guess.

If they operate like the staff at Redhill, they will just tell you that you should have got an earlier train (although admittedly Reigate is only a 25 minute walk).

 

[ComUtoR]

If drivers and stock stay together it makes things easier

When you have Driver/stock together you get a situation where you potentially knock out a whole series of services because of a single issue.

I work metro so if I've got 4 trips and I'm running late then those trips are heavily affected. Anything major and you lose all 4.

Same if there is a problem with the unit. You lose a whole chunk of services and unless the driver is able to get somewhere there is a spare unit (on a route/depot they sign) That Driver either gets and easy day or gets displaced so bad they don't recover. Chasing your diagram is again, broken.

There is no real answer and every situation will need some kind of bespoke solution but unit/driver is just as broken.

 

[Fred26]

If drivers and stock stay together it makes things easier

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==


Is it control? If there's no driver for the last train, there's no driver for the last train. They haven't got a magic wand

Time after time they cancel the last train with no provision. This isn't a one-off.

If they operate like the staff at Redhill, they will just tell you that you should have got an earlier train (although admittedly Reigate is only a 25 minute walk).

I don't know about Redhill.
Hitchin staff aren't likely to say that though.

 

[Minstral25]

If they operate like the staff at Redhill, they will just tell you that you should have got an earlier train (although admittedly Reigate is only a 25 minute walk).

They are not supposed to and should ensure you get to your destinations station - and there are plenty of Taxis out front too

 

[WizCastro197]

No Trains to Earlswood, Salfords Or Horley until 18:30 in southbound direction.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

No Trains to Earlswood, Salfords Or Horley until 18:30 in southbound direction.

They've been running Down Slow and stopping at Earlswood looking at RTT so i wouldn't have been happy if they didn't open the doors!

 

[WizCastro197]

They've been running Down Slow and stopping at Earlswood looking at RTT so i wouldn't have been happy if they didn't open the doors!

Perhaps now bust disruption was supposed to end between 17:30-18:00

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Whilst it is slightly off topic, it is interesting to note that this will be an occurence for all GX services from the December timetable change according to RTT. If the reason you suggested is assumed to be correct, it's certainly not an optimistic outlook for TL services going forward.

I wouldn't read into that at all. TL services are fine going forwards.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

TL services are fine going forwards.

Thameslink - Train service punctuality and reliability

www.thameslinkrailway.com

Would recommend you give this a read every day. They're not fine now and there's no real signs of improvement going forth.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thameslink - Train service punctuality and reliability

www.thameslinkrailway.com

Would recommend you give this a read every day. They're not fine now and there's no real signs of improvement going forth.

You misunderstood what i meant. I was referring to the long term future of thameslink services not their day to day performance.

 

[WizCastro197]

Thameslink - Train service punctuality and reliability

www.thameslinkrailway.com

Would recommend you give this a read every day. They're not fine now and there's no real signs of improvement going forth.

I mean 80% trains arrive within 5 minutes of their intended arrival time. It is isn’t too bad but it would more preferable if the 64% could go up. I believe in the same page there is the weekly report

You misunderstood what i meant. I was referring to the long term future of thameslink services not their day to day performance.

I do believe once the Summer Holidays are over, Thameslink’s punctuality will drastically improve. But there is always the chance it may not but fingers crossed

 

[Horizon22]

When you have Driver/stock together you get a situation where you potentially knock out a whole series of services because of a single issue.

I work metro so if I've got 4 trips and I'm running late then those trips are heavily affected. Anything major and you lose all 4.

Same if there is a problem with the unit. You lose a whole chunk of services and unless the driver is able to get somewhere there is a spare unit (on a route/depot they sign) That Driver either gets and easy day or gets displaced so bad they don't recover. Chasing your diagram is again, broken.

There is no real answer and every situation will need some kind of bespoke solution but unit/driver is just as broken.

Depends how complicated it is to stitch everything back together. Complicated cross-workings, restrictive turnarounds with long journey times, a higher percentage of diagrams with drivers changing en route, restrictive route knowledge, limited availability of spare units in the right place and a good base of competent control staff who are not completely overwhelmed day-in-day-out will significantly impact service recovery. And a number of these things seem to be in play at GTR and some of these are within their gift to resolve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2022 ==

I mean 80% trains arrive within 5 minutes of their intended arrival time. It is isn’t too bad but it would more preferable if the 64% could go up. I believe in the same page there is the weekly report

I do believe once the Summer Holidays are over, Thameslink’s punctuality will drastically improve. But there is always the chance it may not but fingers crossed

82% is indeed fairly poor really.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Issues in the core today 9Rxx cancelled off of course but don't worry say Thameslink you can use your ticket on Metrobus to Gatwick whose routes don't go anywhere near Earlswood or Salfords stations

 

[JonathanH]

Issues in the core today 9Rxx cancelled off of course but don't worry say Thameslink you can use your ticket on Metrobus to Gatwick whose routes don't go anywhere near Earlswood or Salfords stations

In the grand scheme of things, the stops on the A23 aren't that far away from Earlswood and Salfords stations.

 

[paul1609]

Issues in the core today 9Rxx cancelled off of course but don't worry say Thameslink you can use your ticket on Metrobus to Gatwick whose routes don't go anywhere near Earlswood or Salfords stations

Err? both Earlswood and Salfords stations are about 300 yards from the nearest bus stops on the A23

 

[RichJF]

Err? both Earlswood and Salfords stations are about 300 yards from the nearest bus stops on the A23

Exactly. The route 400 Metrobus goes from Caterham (on the Hill) to East Grinstead via Redhil, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley & Gatwick Airport.