What’s going on with Thameslink?

[WizCastro197]

Agree, but I still don’t understand why trains could not stop at Earlswood P2. Even the track diagram issued by Thameslink seems to indicate they could stop in P2 at Earlswood. 1B06 is about to cross the ladder to slow lines as all quarry trains did which is after Earlswood station.View attachment 119742

They are doing it to make peoples lives harder intentionally.

Yes I agree how come fast trains have priority over where most of southerns main belt of customers live?


Don’t paying customers entitled to the right to a reliable service and not to face such difficulties getting home when trains could be stopped at both Earlswood and Salfords?

When the Quarry line shut a few months ago, Fast Thameslink and Southern services went through Earlswood but stopping services did too?

 

[Isambard]

When I used to travel daily to school (1970-74, well pre-Thameslink) from Salfords to East Croydon and back, the basic service pattern was a simple and obvious one, half-hourly Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley, all stations to Brighton. Wonder why this apparently sensible use of the line was lost.

 

[JonathanH]

When I used to travel daily to school (1970-74, well pre-Thameslink) from Salfords to East Croydon and back, the basic service pattern was a simple and obvious one, half-hourly Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley, all stations to Brighton. Wonder why this apparently sensible use of the line was lost.

It is an unreliable pattern as the trains need to be pathed in front of and then behind a faster train from London to the Coast.

There are more services now than there were in 1970-74 and it makes sense to split the markets.

 

[Edsmith]

When I used to travel daily to school (1970-74, well pre-Thameslink) from Salfords to East Croydon and back, the basic service pattern was a simple and obvious one, half-hourly Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley, all stations to Brighton. Wonder why this apparently sensible use of the line was lost.

I can just about remember the Purley and all stations to Brighton announcements at East Croydon, I heard it so many times that I memorised all the stations. I suppose people in places like Burgess Hill and Hassocks expect a faster service to London?

Didn't Salfords only have a very limited service at one time or is my memory playing tricks on me?

 

[WizCastro197]

A few cancellations due to a fallen tree, a speed restriction over defective track, shortage of train crew and failure of electricity supply earlier today.

In the Redhill (RDH) area, is it the same defective track as yesterday?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==


Heavy Rain has now flooded Earlswood (ELD) platform 1, so there is a reduced service until at least 18:00

I kind of want to see what it looks like but I probably won't.

Again the 3rd day or disruption in the southbound direction at peak so commuters again will struggle to get home again

 

[GordonT]

A few Cancellations due to: Fallen Tree, Speed Restriction over defective track, shortage of train crew and failure of electricity supply earlier today
In the RDH area is it the same Defective Track as yesterday?

And inevitably the disruption permeated along the many tentacles of the Thameslink network with several trains running late by as much as 40 minutes.

 

[WizCastro197]

It appears as if the disruption has ended in the Earlswood area on time as Thameslink had predicted between 16:00-17:00
Hope not too many passengers were affected as this is now the 3rd day of consecutive disruption in the Redhill area and looking forward, hopefully the last

 

[AzureOtsu]

Thameslink services are at a standstill south of Gatwick airport due to a faulty train stuck in a tunnel south of three bridges

 

[miklcct]

Thameslink has announced that it will cancel the whole of Cambridge - Brighton route tomorrow (27/8) due to a lack of drivers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thameslink has announced that it will cancel the whole of Cambridge - Brighton route tomorrow (27/8) due to a lack of drivers.

Bad enough for Brighton being as its a BH weekend but even bigger loss for Cambridge or are they running it as a Kings Cross to Cambridge service?

 

[GordonT]

Thameslink has announced that it will cancel the whole of Cambridge - Brighton route tomorrow (27/8) due to a lack of drivers.

It is worrying that it is becoming the norm to invoke such a regular slash and burn approach to the advertised timetable by the usual TOC suspects.

 

[MikeWM]

Bad enough for Brighton being as its a BH weekend but even bigger loss for Cambridge or are they running it as a Kings Cross to Cambridge service?

Doesn't look it, just appears to be the 2 fasts and 1 stopper each hour. Presumably the 'fasts' will have various extra stops added to partially compensate, yet again.

Every Saturday now some service or other isn't running. And it appears entirely unpredictable *which* service they choose not to run, which is even worse.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Doesn't look it, just appears to be the 2 fasts and 1 stopper each hour. Presumably the 'fasts' will have various extra stops added to partially compensate, yet again.

Every Saturday now some service or other isn't running. And it appears entirely unpredictable *which* service they choose not to run, which is even worse.

At least it's not the Peterborough to Horsham route today, I was expecting that to be cut down to the 2 shuttle services as they did the the past few weekends but it's surprisingly running Peterborough to Three Bridges in its entirety! (Not to Horsham because of planned engineering work)

 

[Bishopstone]

The excuse that GTR inherited an unexpected driver shortage from First Capital Connect is starting to wear thin.

 

[Magdalia]

Thameslink has announced that it will cancel the whole of Cambridge - Brighton route tomorrow (27/8) due to a lack of drivers.

Look at the football fixture list. Arsenal and Brighton are both at home.

 

[baz962]

The excuse that GTR inherited an unexpected driver shortage from First Capital Connect is starting to wear thin.

It won't improve sometime soon either. Although there are some in training, it takes a good year to get a trainee productive and Thameslink generally don't take qualified drivers these days.

 

[zwk500]

It won't improve sometime soon either. Although there are some in training, it takes a good year to get a trainee productive and Thameslink generally don't take qualified drivers these days.

This seems a bizarre policy to have in place given they're fully aware they need more drivers and equally aware how long it takes to qualify new drivers. As a short-term measure you'd have thought they'd be open to anybody who wants to drive for them to achieve the basic minimum numbers. I assume there's an edict from somebody high up to avoid paying full rate for a qualified driver.

 

[baz962]

This seems a bizarre policy to have in place given they're fully aware they need more drivers and equally aware how long it takes to qualify new drivers. As a short-term measure you'd have thought they'd be open to anybody who wants to drive for them to achieve the basic minimum numbers. I assume there's an edict from somebody high up to avoid paying full rate for a qualified driver.

I have no idea. I have been a driver for four years now and not seen an advert. I did my tests for them and was told at my interview that the manager still had 200 to recruit ( trainees) for the Thameslink program. Since I qualified with a different toc I have had several colleagues that worked for Thameslink as a shunter or similar, went elsewhere to go mainline and tried to go back once qualified. Even with direct communication with HR and knowing HR and management, they won't get taken on. I also know a qualified driver at another toc and is related to a gtr driver manager and he can't get in there either.

 

[MML]

Instead of recruiting lots more drivers with all the additional costs involved and time taken for them to be trained, you would think it would be quicker and cheaper to use all the drivers who are sat at home doing nothing. Today, there is no Luton to Rainham train service with trains operating a Dartford to Rainham shuttle. And no Thameslink service on the Sutton loop with trains terminating at Herne Hill. Both due to planned engineering work. This will likely mean the driver resources at Luton, St. Albans, Cricklewood and perhaps elsewhere are all underutilised this weekend. Since all Thameslink drivers have Class 700 traction knowledge, if they had greater route knowledge for at least one alternative route, it could allow more flexible use of drivers across the network, as almost every weekend there will likely be a planned closure on a part of the network. To maintain route knowledge will obviously have some additional cost, but is likely to be less than a new recruit. Bedford/Luton drivers covering for Peterborough/Hitchin drivers when there is a reduced service on the MML and vice versa when the ECML is closed.

 

[whoosh]

Instead of recruiting lots more drivers with all the additional costs involved and time taken for them to be trained, you would think it would be quicker and cheaper to use all the drivers who are sat at home doing nothing. Today, there is no Luton to Rainham train service with trains operating a Dartford to Rainham shuttle. And no Thameslink service on the Sutton loop with trains terminating at Herne Hill. Both due to planned engineering work. This will likely mean the driver resources at Luton, St. Albans, Cricklewood and perhaps elsewhere are all underutilised this weekend. Since all Thameslink drivers have Class 700 traction knowledge, if they had greater route knowledge for at least one alternative route, it could allow more flexible use of drivers across the network, as almost every weekend there will likely be a planned closure on a part of the network. To maintain route knowledge will obviously have some additional cost, but is likely to be less than a new recruit. Bedford/Luton drivers covering for Peterborough/Hitchin drivers when there is a reduced service on the MML and vice versa when the ECML is closed.

What like 'contingency route knowledge'?

"To maintain [contingency] route knowledge will obviously have some additional cost?" They'd have to learn it first, and you are assuming that the route knowledge already needed, before fancy 'contingency route knowledge' is contemplated, has actually been completed.

There's a reason most Horsham - Peterborough trains swap drivers at Finsbury Park (with associated risk of delays in one direction cascading to the other dierction), and why an uncovered duty on half the route leads to a whole trip being cancelled.


Take a guess at what it is.

Because if more of those trains ran end to end with one driver they'd likely be more reliable wouldn't they?

 

[miklcct]

Instead of recruiting lots more drivers with all the additional costs involved and time taken for them to be trained, you would think it would be quicker and cheaper to use all the drivers who are sat at home doing nothing. Today, there is no Luton to Rainham train service with trains operating a Dartford to Rainham shuttle. And no Thameslink service on the Sutton loop with trains terminating at Herne Hill. Both due to planned engineering work. This will likely mean the driver resources at Luton, St. Albans, Cricklewood and perhaps elsewhere are all underutilised this weekend. Since all Thameslink drivers have Class 700 traction knowledge, if they had greater route knowledge for at least one alternative route, it could allow more flexible use of drivers across the network, as almost every weekend there will likely be a planned closure on a part of the network. To maintain route knowledge will obviously have some additional cost, but is likely to be less than a new recruit. Bedford/Luton drivers covering for Peterborough/Hitchin drivers when there is a reduced service on the MML and vice versa when the ECML is closed.

Thameslink services are divided into 2 major groups and the one with driver shortage is not the one with engineering works. It's unfortunate that all engineering work today falls into a single service group.

I would say that these service groups don't have much in common except the fact that they both operate with class 700s and pass through the core. The suburban service group doesn't go anywhere south of East Croydon, or into the Great Northern branch, while the regional service group doesn't go into the Kent or the Sutton lines.

Do you really think it's worthwhile to train all drivers to be competent on both service groups for the rare occasion that there are so many engineering works falling into a single service group, while the other service group has driver shortage?

 

[43066]

I have no idea. I have been a driver for four years now and not seen an advert. I did my tests for them and was told at my interview that the manager still had 200 to recruit ( trainees) for the Thameslink program. Since I qualified with a different toc I have had several colleagues that worked for Thameslink as a shunter or similar, went elsewhere to go mainline and tried to go back once qualified. Even with direct communication with HR and knowing HR and management, they won't get taken on. I also know a qualified driver at another toc and is related to a gtr driver manager and he can't get in there either.

I suspect they’re geared up for new trainees simply because they would get very few qualified applicants for their “starter depots”. Death by Sutton Loop, 100+ stop metro diagrams and DOO isn’t an appealing prospect for many drivers (once you’ve done that kind of work you know why). Their better depots such as Bedford and Brighton will be oversubscribed with internal applicants wanting to move away from Cricklewood, St Albans etc. and therefore “dead man’s shoes”.

I’ve known of people move to Southern via direct approaches to HR, albeit again you’re limited on choice of depot and (IIRC) have to do three years productive before you can put in for a move.

 

[baz962]

I suspect they’re geared up for new trainees simply because they would get very few qualified applicants for their “starter depots”. Death by Sutton Loop, 100+ stop metro diagrams and DOO isn’t an appealing prospect for many drivers (once you’ve done that kind of work you know why). Their better depots such as Bedford and Brighton will be oversubscribed with internal applicants wanting to move away from Cricklewood, St Albans etc. and therefore “dead man’s shoes”.

I’ve known of people move to Southern via direct approaches to HR, albeit again you’re limited on choice of depot and (IIRC) have to do three years productive before you can put in for a move.

I do know that they take qualified on the Southern side and on Southeastern when they still had it.

 

[43066]

I do know that they take qualified on the Southern side and on Southeastern when they still had it.

Southeastern will take anybody! They have recruited externally even for their more desirable depots that would be dead man’s shoes at most TOCs.

 

[Route115?]

I see that Thameslink cancelled its Cambridge - Brighton services yesterday, not surprisingly resulting in a lot of overcrowding. Staffing is obviously an issue during bank holiday weekends when you have a staff shortage, but my question is would it be possible to cancel less busy services? (From observation, trains terminating at Gatwick & Three Bridges had plenty of spare seats) Would there be difficulties with a lack of route knowledge, the requirement for taxis between locations and drivers goung out of hours, etc, or could it be done?

 

[Watershed]

I see that Thameslink cancelled its Cambridge - Brighton services yesterday, not surprisingly resulting in a lot of overcrowding. Staffing is obviously an issue during bank holiday weekends when you have a staff shortage, but my question is would it be possible to cancel less busy services? (From observation, trains terminating at Gatwick & Three Bridges had plenty of spare seats) Would there be difficulties with a lack of route knowledge, the requirement for taxis between locations and drivers goung out of hours, etc, or could it be done?

One of the major difficulties is how segmented the driver route knowledge is on Thameslink. Almost all drivers only have the route knowledge to drive 'their' main route. For instance, Peterborough drivers don't sign to Cambridge so couldn't fill in for uncovered Cambridge turns.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I see that Thameslink cancelled its Cambridge - Brighton services yesterday, not surprisingly resulting in a lot of overcrowding. Staffing is obviously an issue during bank holiday weekends when you have a staff shortage, but my question is would it be possible to cancel less busy services? (From observation, trains terminating at Gatwick & Three Bridges had plenty of spare seats) Would there be difficulties with a lack of route knowledge, the requirement for taxis between locations and drivers goung out of hours, etc, or could it be done?

Its not that simple. Drivers on the Gatwick terminators come from depots up the Midland Mainline, so won't sign up to Finsbury Park.
It also takes time to rewrite timetables. A job that takes train planners weeks to do, control often have to do overnight whilst still doing their main job

 

[Need2]

One of the major difficulties is how segmented the driver route knowledge is on Thameslink. Almost all drivers only have the route knowledge to drive 'their' main route. For instance, Peterborough drivers don't sign to Cambridge so couldn't fill in for uncovered Cambridge turns.

I quite agree.
“Depot specific” route knowledge is another term for cost cutting.
As an example At my depot (Orpington) all the ex Blackfriars drivers signed Bedford to Brighton via LBG and a few signed a couple of other routes. ALL drivers at some point signed Luton to Bedford.
Now we all only sign as far as Luton.
I can’t speak for other depots but as it stands at the moment, we literally cannot cover any other depot work unless it goes via the Catford loop and then, only as far as Luton.
Very short sighted.

 

[GN Boy]

I quite agree.
“Depot specific” route knowledge is another term for cost cutting.
As an example At my depot (Orpington) all the ex Blackfriars drivers signed Bedford to Brighton via LBG and a few signed a couple of other routes. ALL drivers at some point signed Luton to Bedford.
Now we all only sign as far as Luton.
I can’t speak for other depots but as it stands at the moment, we literally cannot cover any other depot work unless it goes via the Catford loop and then, only as far as Luton.
Very short sighted.

Similar on the GN side. We miss the ‘all tractions and all routes’ that we once enjoyed. Work got covered back then too…

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder if the new timetable will be deliverable. Especially on Saturday.