Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[mbonwick]

ex-33513 as it was does not have DDA compliance, though probably could be certified with minimal work.
It and the rest of the batch were pretty terrible reliability-wise in the last few years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

ex-33513 as it was does not have DDA compliance, though probably could be certified with minimal work.
It and the rest of the batch were pretty terrible reliability-wise in the last few years.

I seem to recall their time in Northampton wasn't very successful. I thought they might be DDA compliant but obviously not.

 

[Robertj21a]

I seem to recall their time in Northampton wasn't very successful. I thought they might be DDA compliant but obviously not.

Although there may be a few X-reg buses that were quickly registered after being built to the DDA regs, it's Y-reg before most buses were DDA-compliant.

 

[455driver]

Plus plenty of bell pushes etc plus ironing board (which has to meet stress tests) for wheelchair etc. On some buses the angle of the floor near the ramp may be a problem.

Not generally worthwhile (IMHO) given that the vehicles will be 15+ years old when the regulations take effect.

So bearing in mind all the single deck buses must comply by next year what do you suggest, a fleet of brand new buses instead? The accountants would love that idea!

 

[Temple Meads]

So bearing in mind all the single deck buses must comply by next year what do you suggest, a fleet of brand new buses instead? The accountants would love that idea!

To be honest that issue isn't just limited to WGL, it seems to be a bit of an 'elephant in the room' for the industry as a whole!

 

[Robertj21a]

So bearing in mind all the single deck buses must comply by next year what do you suggest, a fleet of brand new buses instead? The accountants would love that idea!

They've known about it for 15 years and most companies are nearly compliant already. The industry itself accepted that 15 years for new legislation to take effect was realistic given that buses often have a 12-15 year life span. If any companies struggle to make the deadline (some will) then they haven't been managed very well.

 

[ECML180]

Bus companies...managed well? hock: Never where I work

It is quite clear when you look at who is operating the 'soon to be non-compliant' fleets, not many medium to large operators. Since they have larger fleets to replace you'd think they have a bigger challenge, but unfortunately I can see a last minute rush from the little independents who will upgrade buses from maybe V to Y reg and keep them for another 10 years!

 

[SWTH]

WGL is largely sorted for DDA compliance. When I left there were three or four Varios that don't comply - the rest are technically coaches and therefore able to operate until the end of 2019, and possibly three Solos (the ex-Nottingham examples, 921/2/3).

 

[South Westerly]

WGL is largely sorted for DDA compliance. When I left there were three or four Varios that don't comply - the rest are technically coaches and therefore able to operate until the end of 2019, and possibly three Solos (the ex-Nottingham examples, 921/2/3).

To be compliant beyond the end of 2014 by virtue of being classed as coaches the Varios would need to weigh over 7.5 tonnes.

 

[MCR247]

WGL is largely sorted for DDA compliance. When I left there were three or four Varios that don't comply - the rest are technically coaches and therefore able to operate until the end of 2019, and possibly three Solos (the ex-Nottingham examples, 921/2/3).

They weren't DDA compliant when they left NCT

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

SPEAKING HYPOTHETICALLY, if WGL were to fall off their perch, you could see a St Austell area operation being set up to undertake Newquay operations and take the 27 (to create capacity in Truro) and to take on selected local operations (Mevagissey, Fowey, etc). Also, there might be a wish to take on stuff like the 76 tender. QUOTE]

Apologies if this looks self indulgent (not meant to) but looks like I was half right....only that First aren't waiting for WGL to fail but are steaming right in there with further routes to Mev and Fowey.

A little surprised that they're going on the 29 again (if only because of Cornwall Busways on there)

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is quite clear when you look at who is operating the 'soon to be non-compliant' fleets, not many medium to large operators. Since they have larger fleets to replace you'd think they have a bigger challenge, but unfortunately I can see a last minute rush from the little independents who will upgrade buses from maybe V to Y reg and keep them for another 10 years!

The non-compliant fleets tend to be in more rural areas- First Kernow have plenty of step-entrance Olympians still out and about, and my local Arriva operator still have Optare Excels out in service- but the bigger companies already have buses to cascade down the pecking order. The independents don't, so they're going to have to take the credit card down to Ensignbus sooner rather than later. For those in financial hardship, like Western Greyhound, that'll be enough to tip them over the edge.

And the trouble is that, as GrandWazoo pointed out, the only DDA compliant buses on Ensignbus' yard are those that the big operators don't want. Usually because they're a dog, built badly by Transbus just before it fell over.

 

[Robertj21a]

.
First still have a large number of non-DDA compliant buses to get rid of in the next year or so, and not only rural areas - just look at Potteries.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

.
First still have a large number of non-DDA compliant buses to get rid of in the next year or so, and not only rural areas - just look at Potteries.

There are quite a number of non-DDA compliant vehicles that would only require a limited amount of work to bring them up to scratch.

For instance, I was in FHD territory and had a look at some of their B10BLE/Wright Renowns. The S reg machines might be a little too old to realistically keep going but the W regs have most aspects (e.g. ramps etc) but only need the nearside destination display AFAIK. Some of the Potteries Scania L94/Wright Floline might be similarly treated?

 

[swifty]

There are quite a number of non-DDA compliant vehicles that would only require a limited amount of work to bring them up to scratch.

For instance, I was in FHD territory and had a look at some of their B10BLE/Wright Renowns. The S reg machines might be a little too old to realistically keep going but the W regs have most aspects (e.g. ramps etc) but only need the nearside destination display AFAIK. Some of the Potteries Scania L94/Wright Floline might be similarly treated?

IIRC First are converting a lot of the B7/ALX400s and later B10/Renown to be DDA compliant.

 

[SWTH]

To be compliant beyond the end of 2014 by virtue of being classed as coaches the Varios would need to weigh over 7.5 tonnes.

Where does it say that in the PSVAR? Just rechecked it and as far as I can tell only buses are subject to different dates relative to GVW for DDA compliance. Coaches are on a blanket exemption until 2020. Being honest, I don't think it'll matter either way once First begin to compete.

 

[South Westerly]

Where does it say that in the PSVAR? Just rechecked it and as far as I can tell only buses are subject to different dates relative to GVW for DDA compliance. Coaches are on a blanket exemption until 2020. Being honest, I don't think it'll matter either way once First begin to compete.

The following is widely used to explain within the industry:

Over the next 6 years, the need for buses to be accessible to DDA standards is being introduced.

The dates for each of the deadlines are below :

1st January 2015 - All buses and coaches up to 7.5 tonnes GVW
1st January 2016 - Single-deck buses over 7.5 tonnes GVW
1st January 2017 - Double-deck buses
1st January 2020 - Coaches

 

[SWTH]

That's not the wording of PSVAR, which is the actual legislation.

See here: PSVAR 2000

Note that according to Part II Regulation 3:

7.5t Regulations:

(4) Without prejudice to paragraph (3), a single-deck bus which weighs 7.5 tonnes or less and is in use on or after 1st January 2005 shall require a certificate referred to in paragraph (8) relating to Schedule 1, except that a single-deck bus which—
(a)is first used before that date; or
(b)is manufactured before 1st October 2004,
shall not require a certificate relating to Schedule 1 until 1st January 2015.

Coach regulations:

(7) Without prejudice to paragraph (6), a single-deck or double-deck coach which is in use on or after 1st January 2005 shall require a certificate referred to in paragraph (8) relating to Schedule 1, except that a single-deck or double-deck coach which—
(a)is first used before that date; or
(b)is manufactured before 1st October 2004,
shall not require a certificate relating to Schedule 1 until 1st January 2020.

There is no reference to coaches in the 7.5t section, nor any weight limit in the coach section.

 

[South Westerly]

The up to 7.5 tonne category covers all vehicles, bus and coach. It effectively stops anything under 7.5 tonnes being used on local registered bus services.

The coach category is only applicable to vehicles over 7.5 tonnes.

That's not the wording of PSVAR, which is the actual legislation.

See here: PSVAR 2000

Note that according to Part II Regulation 3:

7.5t Regulations:

(4) Without prejudice to paragraph (3), a single-deck bus which weighs 7.5 tonnes or less and is in use on or after 1st January 2005 shall require a certificate referred to in paragraph (8) relating to Schedule 1, except that a single-deck bus which—
(a)is first used before that date; or
(b)is manufactured before 1st October 2004,
shall not require a certificate relating to Schedule 1 until 1st January 2015.

Coach regulations:

(7) Without prejudice to paragraph (6), a single-deck or double-deck coach which is in use on or after 1st January 2005 shall require a certificate referred to in paragraph (8) relating to Schedule 1, except that a single-deck or double-deck coach which—
(a)is first used before that date; or
(b)is manufactured before 1st October 2004,
shall not require a certificate relating to Schedule 1 until 1st January 2020.

There is no reference to coaches in the 7.5t section, nor any weight limit in the coach section.

 

[SWTH]

Except that's not what the regulations say.

Please could you provide a link to any official documentation that supports your opinion?

 

[Goldfish62]

Except that's not what the regulations say.

Please could you provide a link to any official documentation that supports your opinion?

I agree with you. Coaches of whatever weight are a blanket 2020, because that's what the legislation says.

 

[South Westerly]

Except that's not what the regulations say.

Please could you provide a link to any official documentation that supports your opinion?

No mate. Google it and you'll find a whole variety of documents from within the industry saying the same thing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the Varios are for seated passengers only then they're a coach. If they are registered to carry standing passengers then they're a bus. The regulations simply define a coach as a vehicle that doesn't carry standing passengers and has a capacity of more than 22 passengers.

 

[SWTH]

No mate. Google it and you'll find a whole variety of documents from within the industry saying the same thing.

Why do I need to go hunting for a 'variety of documents' when the answer is written in black and white in the actual legislation - realistically, the only document that matters?

Are you genuinely trying to tell me that the regulations and exemptions as written in PSVAR 2000 are not accurate? If so, you really ought to be making the DfT aware.

Out of curiosity what role do you have within the bus industry?

 

[robertclark125]

If I can somehow get this thread back on track, how is WG coping with the slightly reduced journeys it's now operating?

 

[Goldfish62]

No mate. Google it and you'll find a whole variety of documents from within the industry saying the same thing.

I have a regulatory role in the industry and can tell you that if this is what these documents are saying then they're incorrect. End of.

Anyway, so how are WG these days?

 

[starrymarkb]

Had a couple of customers asking when First were taking over as local rumours were suggesting closure is imminent (Monday was suggested). We've had nothing official

 

[robertclark125]

I would be surprised if that happened.

 

[starrymarkb]

I don't mean a buy out, more First stepping in. The Council are known to have alternative operators on standby for their contracts.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't mean a buy out, more First stepping in. The Council are known to have alternative operators on standby for their contracts.

If Travel Cornwall/ Summercourt Travel are one such operator I have severe misgivings they are up to it. Friday lunchtime visibility was down to about fifty yards along the coast at Marazion and looming up out of it sat on the bridge over the railway line by the cafe was a totally unlit, driverless S.T. singledecker, seemingly abandoned from the task of providing the 'back road' route from Hayle to Penzance whose number currently escapes me. How a professional driver could leave a bus like that except in the direst of emergencies I don't know, but I haven't thought much of the drivers of theirs I've encountered, although I admit I've not been east of Truro with them.