Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[South Westerly]

so talk in the press release from first this is the start of many new routes in cornwall whats next then?

seen comments else where western greyhound directors have been trying to sell shares / the company.... would first be stopped from maybe making a move for the company just out of interest if they wanted too?

Why would they want to? All the debts, vehicles that WGL say are unreliable, staff with length of service, loss making routes? Looks like First can have what they want with no compromises, ties or commitments. All they need to do is to register what they want. Looks like enough WGL drivers will be waiting to work for them too.
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May well see a repeat of the Stagecoach vs First debacle in North Devon.

In what way?

 

[83G/84D]

Roughly what happened was First wanted to sell it's North Devon operation and agreed a deal with Stagecoach but it was rejected by the competition commission. First then pulled the plug anyway and Stagecoach got themselves a number of routes for next to nothing.

Could history not repeat itself with Western Greyhound and First in Cornwall?

 

[South Westerly]

Roughly what happened was First wanted to sell it's North Devon operation and agreed a deal with Stagecoach but it was rejected by the competition commission. First then pulled the plug anyway and Stagecoach got themselves a number of routes for next to nothing.

Could history not repeat itself with Western Greyhound and First in Cornwall?

Except that First don't want to buy WGL. It seems that no one wants to buy it. In Devon First left then Stagecoach filled the gap. In Cornwall it looks like First aren't going to wait for the gap to open up, presumably because they don't want anyone else to fill it.

 

[83G/84D]

Except that First don't want to buy WGL. It seems that no one wants to buy it. In Devon First left then Stagecoach filled the gap. In Cornwall it looks like First aren't going to wait for the gap to open up, presumably because they don't want anyone else to fill it.

If First do not want to buy Western Greyhound how can they stop another operator filling the gap should WG stop services, other than registering services that compete with Western Greyhound's current routes?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If First do not want to buy Western Greyhound how can they stop another operator filling the gap should WG stop services, other than registering services that compete with Western Greyhound's current routes?

I think that's exactly what First are thinking. Wonder what other routes they're looking at. Would think they might look at mid Cornwall but elsewhere?

 

[Busaholic]

Except that First don't want to buy WGL. It seems that no one wants to buy it. In Devon First left then Stagecoach filled the gap. In Cornwall it looks like First aren't going to wait for the gap to open up, presumably because they don't want anyone else to fill it.

That's a rewriting of history. Stagecoach came in, very quickly established themselves with a quality operation and the public voted with their feet, just what the arch-capitalist in command of First for so many years proclaimed as his philosophy. Stagecoach needn't have made an offer for First, you could say that was an altruistic thing for them to do as it would have kept First drivers in employment and made Stagecoach keep the extra services running for a year when, in the main, they were no longer needed. Instead, the cackhanded Competition Commission handed it to Stagecoach on a plate and First didn't get the sale to helo them balance their books. Then Stagecoach could pick and choose which First drivers they wanted on an entirely new employment contract. To present it as First's finest hour is a travesty of the truth.
I feel sorry for WG drivers who are now in a similar position to those First drivers in Bideford and Ilfracombe.

 

[83G/84D]

That's a rewriting of history. Stagecoach came in, very quickly established themselves with a quality operation and the public voted with their feet, just what the arch-capitalist in command of First for so many years proclaimed as his philosophy. Stagecoach needn't have made an offer for First, you could say that was an altruistic thing for them to do as it would have kept First drivers in employment and made Stagecoach keep the extra services running for a year when, in the main, they were no longer needed. Instead, the cackhanded Competition Commission handed it to Stagecoach on a plate and First didn't get the sale to helo them balance their books. Then Stagecoach could pick and choose which First drivers they wanted on an entirely new employment contract. To present it as First's finest hour is a travesty of the truth.
I feel sorry for WG drivers who are now in a similar position to those First drivers in Bideford and Ilfracombe.

I do not know who presented it as First's finest hour (if anyone did so) but as you say it didn't appear to be that looking in from outside.

Stagecoach whilst they did not come out of it smelling of roses certainly gained the most and now have a virtual monopoly in Barnstaple (with a token competition from Filers) which was exactly what the competitions commission wanted to avoid.

Surely there should be measures in place to ensure that Stagecoach do not take advantage of their position of main operator, not that I am suggesting they would.

 

[robertclark125]

But the thing is, putting measures in place to prevent a firm taking advantage of their position as main operator could actually prevent competition. After all, just because one operator is dominant doesn't mean they aren't allowed to compete or expand.

On another point, it wasn't the competition commission who actually scuppered the Barnstaple sale. What actually happened was this; Stagecoach agreed to buy the Barnstaple depot of First, on the condition the OFT did NOT refer the deal to the Competition Commission. The OFT did refer the deal, Stagecoach pulled out of the deal, First said they were withdrawing from the area, and Stagecoach stepped in. Purely business decisions, one firm withdraws, another takes its place. Nothing the authorities can do.

One other little thought. I just wonder if First may offer a deal to WG, namely to take on the remaining WG routes, and staff, but not the vehicles or the premises, and no money changes hands? This allows the WG management to dispose of all the rolling stock and the premises, and thus generate money, and First gets staff and routes it currently doesn't have, free of charge, and the passengers get a good contiuous service. Everyone's a winner.

 

[winston270twm]

One other little thought. I just wonder if First may offer a deal to WG, namely to take on the remaining WG routes, and staff, but not the vehicles or the premises, and no money changes hands? This allows the WG management to dispose of all the rolling stock and the premises, and thus generate money, and First gets staff and routes it currently doesn't have, free of charge, and the passengers get a good contiuous service. Everyone's a winner.

It's a good idea in principle, an ideal way out for WG & expansion for First F.O.C, the only issue I can see is where would First run the routes from as they would need additional depot capacity/outstations to operate the routes that are miles from the nearest First depot. Plus First wouldn't also need to source a load of Solo's or smaller DDA compliant Darts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's a good idea in principle, an ideal way out for WG & expansion for First F.O.C, the only issue I can see is where would First run the routes from as they would need additional depot capacity/outstations to operate the routes that are miles from the nearest First depot. Plus First wouldn't also need to source a load of Solo's or smaller DDA compliant Darts.

Are we not getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. We're organising the vol au vents for the wake and the person hasn't died yet!!

Firstly, in terms of fleet, there's a lot that First can do. Remember that DDA is a year away for single decks so if there was a case of WG (or any other firm turning turtle), there are spare non DDA vehicles that can head down as a stop gap (as has happened with former Hampshire Darts that are old but in excellent condition heading to Somerset).

As regards depots and the like, that does pre-suppose that First would want ALL of the WGL operations. Remember, WGL has one central depot and then a mix of outstations of varying complexity. SPEAKING HYPOTHETICALLY, if WGL were to fall off their perch, you could see a St Austell area operation being set up to undertake Newquay operations and take the 27 (to create capacity in Truro) and to take on selected local operations (Mevagissey, Fowey, etc). Also, there might be a wish to take on stuff like the 76 tender.

However, perhaps First might not want North Cornwall, and as for Liskeard area, perhaps they may actually want PCB to take that on. Give them a distraction from competing on Tavistock and Torpoint??
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.

One other little thought. I just wonder if First may offer a deal to WG, namely to take on the remaining WG routes, and staff, but not the vehicles or the premises, and no money changes hands? This allows the WG management to dispose of all the rolling stock and the premises, and thus generate money, and First gets staff and routes it currently doesn't have, free of charge, and the passengers get a good contiuous service. Everyone's a winner.

That depends on whether the value of current assets exceeds current liabilities?

 

[winston270twm]

Are we not getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. We're organising the vol au vents for the wake and the person hasn't died yet!!

Firstly, in terms of fleet, there's a lot that First can do. Remember that DDA is a year away for single decks so if there was a case of WG (or any other firm turning turtle), there are spare non DDA vehicles that can head down as a stop gap (as has happened with former Hampshire Darts that are old but in excellent condition heading to Somerset).

As regards depots and the like, that does pre-suppose that First would want ALL of the WGL operations. Remember, WGL has one central depot and then a mix of outstations of varying complexity. SPEAKING HYPOTHETICALLY, if WGL were to fall off their perch, you could see a St Austell area operation being set up to undertake Newquay operations and take the 27 (to create capacity in Truro) and to take on selected local operations (Mevagissey, Fowey, etc). Also, there might be a wish to take on stuff like the 76 tender.

However, perhaps First might not want North Cornwall, and as for Liskeard area, perhaps they may actually want PCB to take that on. Give them a distraction from competing on Tavistock and Torpoint??

Yet being the operative word....

Now First will be starting to attack WG commercial services from Early Nov and staff are defecting to First in large numbers, I don't see how WG could come back from that and they don't have the finances for a bus war and I doubt they now have the loyalty of their passengers due to continued poor service.

From what I saw last week, the WG 572/573 around Looe, Polperro & Liskeard seem to be fairly well used, they could be of interest to First to re-link the Cornish bus operations in with Plymouth?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's a rewriting of history. Stagecoach came in, very quickly established themselves with a quality operation and the public voted with their feet, just what the arch-capitalist in command of First for so many years proclaimed as his philosophy. Stagecoach needn't have made an offer for First, you could say that was an altruistic thing for them to do as it would have kept First drivers in employment and made Stagecoach keep the extra services running for a year when, in the main, they were no longer needed. Instead, the cackhanded Competition Commission handed it to Stagecoach on a plate and First didn't get the sale to helo them balance their books. Then Stagecoach could pick and choose which First drivers they wanted on an entirely new employment contract. To present it as First's finest hour is a travesty of the truth.
I feel sorry for WG drivers who are now in a similar position to those First drivers in Bideford and Ilfracombe.

I too can't see where it was portrayed as being First's finest hour.

I think everyone knows it was an unmitigated cock up from beginning to end. Starting with the purchase of Cawlett for a vastly inflated sum, all about Moir's hubris and wanting to be the biggest. It was never worth £18m.

Then you had the fact that there were margin expectations far in advance of what was realistic. Hence, work was lost/surrendered in Exeter (which all helped spread the overhead) and then the NatEx work went. The final nail was when Stagecoach decided to tender for the DCC tenders. They went in with a realistic price whilst First went in with their high margin expectations (perhaps complacently thinking that they might lose a bit to Filers or BeaconBus but would make a killing on the rest they'd retain?). Of course, Stagecoach seized the initiative and with a guaranteed income to cover some of the fixed costs, used it as a bridgehead to attack First on the main route. First tried to react (closing Ilfracombe depot) and soldiering on with an increasingly ageing fleet.

With Moir gone and a looming crisis (with the divestment agenda), First tried to offload to Stagecoach but as has been accurately stated, the involvement of the authorities simply precipitated an all out closure of the operation.

I don't think Stagecoach really incurred any bad press AFAIK. Just a sad end to a catalogue of mismanagement from First.

 

[richw]

That depends on whether the value of current assets exceeds current liabilities?

Most recent accounts (publically available info)

Balance Sheet

FIXED ASSETS £4,389,652
Tangible Assets £4,389,652

CURRENT ASSETS £1,041,120
Debtors £865,080
Stocks £57,955
Cash £118,085

TOTAL ASSETS £5,430,772

CREDITORS/LIABILITIES
Amounts falling due within one year £2,097,362

TOTAL ASSETS LESS CURRENT LIABILITIES £3,333,410

Suggests they are asset rich, but cash poor based on cash in bank against liabilities due within one year. NatWest have 5 legal charges over the company.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are we not getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. We're organising the vol au vents for the wake and the person hasn't died yet!!

Judging by the state of the company when I was down in Perranporth this week, I think we need to be booking the pub function room sooner rather than later. I've never seen such a shoddy operation, it looks as though they're down to their last tenner and clinging on for dear life. Shame, as the drivers who drove for us were all reasonably happy and friendly; maybe they have jobs lined up with First

 

[winston270twm]

Most recent accounts (publically available info)



Suggests they are asset rich, but cash poor based on cash in bank against liabilities due within one year. NatWest have 5 legal charges over the company.

Aren't those extracts from the accounts up to 30.9.12 though? i.e prior to the fire, I would expect the latest figures to have worsened form those.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Aren't those extracts from the accounts up to 30.9.12 though? i.e prior to the fire, I would expect the latest figures to have worsened form those.

I was wondering that? Even with the fleet that remained, and an erosion in book value, so one wonders how realisable any figure is for asset disposal?

 

[winston270twm]

I was wondering that? Even with the fleet that remained, and an erosion in book value, so one wonders how realisable any figure is for asset disposal?

Plus WG have sold newer Solo's and replaced those with much older MPD's & ex London Tridents. Their debts will no doubt have increased following the fire/fires, lack of full insurance payouts etc. Even current revenue will more than likely have fallen due to unreliability, services missing out sections of route / not running at all and an increase in competition. I should imagine that the Summercourt land & depot is worth a far bit, but depending on where liabilities currently stand, nett assets will have no doubt reduced somewhat or could even now be negative?

The other thing to note, it that WG over overdue submitting latest accounts to companies house:

Next Accounts Due: 30/06/2014 OVERDUE

 

[Busaholic]

Plus WG have sold newer Solo's and replaced those with much older MPD's & ex London Tridents. Their debts will no doubt have increased following the fire/fires, lack of full insurance payouts etc. Even current revenue will more than likely have fallen due to unreliability, services missing out sections of route / not running at all and an increase in competition. I should imagine that the Summercourt land & depot is worth a far bit, but depending on where liabilities currently stand, nett assets will have no doubt reduced somewhat or could even now be negative?

The other thing to note, it that WG over overdue submitting latest accounts to companies house:

Next Accounts Due: 30/06/2014 OVERDUE

I'm not great with accounts, which my accountant would call an understatement, but surely any new set of accounts prepared would have to be heavily qualified, particularly in relation to the balance sheet and not knowing what (if any) more money may come from the insurance on the fire-destroyed buses?

 

[richw]

Aren't those extracts from the accounts up to 30.9.12 though? i.e prior to the fire, I would expect the latest figures to have worsened form those.

Ahh I hadn't noticed the date. I assumed their accounts would be up to date. They were the most recent figures.

As winston270twm highlights their accounts are overdue.

I wont comment further but an interesting point:

Cash £118,085

CREDITORS/LIABILITIES
Amounts falling due within one year £2,097,362

Fire 9 months later......

 

[winston270twm]

Ahh I hadn't noticed the date. I assumed their accounts would be up to date. They were the most recent figures.

As winston270twm highlights their accounts are overdue.

I wont comment further but an interesting point:

Cash £118,085

CREDITORS/LIABILITIES
Amounts falling due within one year £2,097,362

Fire 9 months later......

No, smaller companies accounts are typically always 6-12 months behind the current date, therefore it's harder to gain a clear picture of current trading. Incidentally, EYMS owned Whittle's accounts were overdue as well, then they were recently submitted and not long after the 'For Sale' signs went up.

That amount of cash in the bank is pretty typical of bus companies accounts I'd seen, to be fair to WG the amount falling due within in one year could be anything such as end of loan to buy Summercourt and could have quite easily have been extended/re-negotiated. I see what you're getting at, but don't you think it would be blatantly obvious to the police/ their insurance company???

Mark Howarth doesn't look overly stressed in this recent picture:
http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/Be...hday-message/story-23156040-detail/story.html

 

[richw]

Mark Howarth doesn't look overly stressed in this recent picture:

No, smaller companies accounts are typically always 6-12 months behind the current date

He never comes across stressed, even when on the TV and media defending poor performance. Something I've noticed he always shows a positive front on the media.

They are 25 months since last accounts, or 13w months since due...

 

[winston270twm]

He never comes across stressed, even when on the TV and media defending poor performance. Something I've noticed he always shows a positive front on the media.

They are 25 months since last accounts, or 13w months since due...

Even once the latest accounts are submitted, they will likely only show up to 30/9/13 so we'll still be 12 months behind actual

 

[83G/84D]

R530YRP Its a Wright bodied Dart in all over Red
X513ADF- Stagecoach Dart - Stagecoach paintjob looks immaculate - maybe another operator can learn about using other operator's liveries whilst still looking good!
R632VEG - Marshall Dart in all over red- not been commissioned into use as yet.
R76GNW - Wright Bodied Dart - I haven't seen it on the road so unsure if this is with them or not but it was parked in their yard when I passed by not long after they started.

They've been using KP Cabs' minibus as cover when they've had buses off the road due to the tight fleet at moment.

R530 YRP was on service 30 today but has a paper route number displayed in the windscreen, X513 ADF still in Stagecoach colours (albeit with Cornwall Busways branding) was on the 31 with a working electronic destination display.

 

[Robertj21a]

R530 YRP was on service 30 today but has a paper route number displayed in the windscreen, X513 ADF still in Stagecoach colours (albeit with Cornwall Busways branding) was on the 31 with a working electronic destination display.

Presumably, none of these buses will meet the DDA requirements in 15 months time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Presumably, none of these buses will meet the DDA requirements in 15 months time.

The SPD might be DDA compliant - built in 2000?

 

[winston270twm]

Presumably, none of these buses will meet the DDA requirements in 15 months time.

Rotala have recently acquired 2 V-reg ex Stagecoach Dart/ALX200's V463/464TVV for Diamond and reckon they are being converted to DDA at minimal cost, so who knows.....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/115199517@N06/15376920860/in/photostream/

 

[starrymarkb]

Basically it requires an integrated ramp (can be manual but has to be fixed to the vehicle, not a portable one), side destination display, grab rails painting contrasting colours and other minor stuff. It's not a big job though the vehicles are at an age where the big groups would be offloading them anyway.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Basically it requires an integrated ramp (can be manual but has to be fixed to the vehicle, not a portable one), side destination display, grab rails painting contrasting colours and other minor stuff. It's not a big job though the vehicles are at an age where the big groups would be offloading them anyway.

Think some older Darts (and the like) have an issue with wheel arches and insufficient aisle width

 

[Robertj21a]

Basically it requires an integrated ramp (can be manual but has to be fixed to the vehicle, not a portable one), side destination display, grab rails painting contrasting colours and other minor stuff. It's not a big job though the vehicles are at an age where the big groups would be offloading them anyway.

Plus plenty of bell pushes etc plus ironing board (which has to meet stress tests) for wheelchair etc. On some buses the angle of the floor near the ramp may be a problem.

Not generally worthwhile (IMHO) given that the vehicles will be 15+ years old when the regulations take effect.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Plus plenty of bell pushes etc plus ironing board (which has to meet stress tests) for wheelchair etc. On some buses the angle of the floor near the ramp may be a problem.

Not generally worthwhile (IMHO) given that the vehicles will be 15+ years old when the regulations take effect.

And for those wondering why Stagecoach may have disposed of X513 (given its age and probable DDA compliance), I believe its a Super Pointer Dart. I'm no engineer but apparently they're known for chassis issues associated with the wheelbase. Go NE disposed of theirs relatively early as well.