Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[overthewater]

Has anyone else notice WG have killed off the evening journeys on two service which First are about to compete on?

 

[RPI]

The writing is on the wall

 

[robertclark125]

This is worrying. It must be worrying for the passengers, and also for the remaining staff. With regards to First, how quickly can an outstation be set up, and then how much notice do they have to give to the Traffic Commissioner that they have a new operating centre, and to adjust the maximum authorisation at other operating centres, IF it comes to that?

 

[richw]

This is worrying. It must be worrying for the passengers, and also for the remaining staff. With regards to First, how quickly can an outstation be set up, and then how much notice do they have to give to the Traffic Commissioner that they have a new operating centre, and to adjust the maximum authorisation at other operating centres, IF it comes to that?

I re-posted the above list and notice on a facebook group, and a passenger commented that he will now need to fork out for a taxi every day.

 

[Busaholic]

I re-posted the above list and notice on a facebook group, and a passenger commented that he will now need to fork out for a taxi every day.

Are any or all of these commercial or tendered services? If the latter, then problems begin to flow: if the former, it's a wonder that they can exist in today's environment. It certainly appears that W.G. will not go down without a fight, which is highly commendable.

 

[richw]

Are any or all of these commercial or tendered services? If the latter, then problems begin to flow: if the former, it's a wonder that they can exist in today's environment. It certainly appears that W.G. will not go down without a fight, which is highly commendable.

All are council tendered services.

 

[Busaholic]

All are council tendered services.

Oh dear.

 

[matt_splat]

If things go tits up in cornwall first or who ever else jumps in would do it on a emergency basis but if it happens some ones going to have to find a lot of drivers and busses during a short time.

I wonder if cornwall council have a plan in place for if things go wrong

 

[SWTH]

Cornwall Council are indeed planning for worst case with WGL. Unfortunatley I'm not allowed to give more details.

 

[robertclark125]

What percentage of WG routes are commercial, and what percentage are tendered?

 

[SWTH]

Almost all the routes have some form of tendered element in them, whether it's providing a service between specific points or evening/Sunday services. It's not as simple as just giving a percentage.

 

[Robertj21a]

The writing is on the wall

If so, perhaps you'd better rearrange the letters in your name.

 

[starrymarkb]

We've had buletins on some WG services saying "Please confirm this service is operating on the day by calling WG on..." for a few weeks now

 

[richw]

We've had buletins on some WG services saying "Please confirm this service is operating on the day by calling WG on..." for a few weeks now

Good luck calling them! A fortnight or so ago their phone lines were cut off for several days. When they are working they rarely get answered. On the Facebook page wheres my bus, there's a number of passengers commenting it took.them 30-40 minutes to be answered and then to be told by the operator they don't know where the bus is or when it will arrive
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cornwall Council are indeed planning for worst case with WGL. Unfortunatley I'm not allowed to give more details.

Glad to be out? A contact who is normally quite reliable with industry info has said he expects them to be gone within a week or so.

 

[MotCO]

Apologies for copying a long extract from Bob Egerton, a Cornish Councillor, but it does provide some insight into the problems at Western Greyhound. Near the end he says that he fears for the future for Western Greyhound.

"Western Greyhound services update August 2014

Western Greyhound has been having severe problems with its operations across Cornwall and particularly in this area on the 550/551 and 522 services. Buses are frequently running very late, some services are being cut short, e.g. not going to Treliske, and some services have simply not run at all.

Thank you to all those residents who have told me about the specific problems that they have had. I have had conversations with Western Greyhound's managing director, Mark Howarth, about the general problems and also the specific issues in this area.

My analysis of the issue is as follows:

The problem is quite simply that he is losing money on running his bus services. First have also been losing money in Cornwall for the past few years, but at least they have a parent company that is able to support them. Western Greyhound's problem is that it is a small company without the deep pockets of First.

Some of the bus services in Cornwall are what as known as commercial. On these routes, the bus operator sets the timetable. Its only sources of income are the fares paid by the passengers plus the reimbursement that it receives from the Council for carrying those passengers with concessionary passes. The Council has over the past few years reduced the rate at which it reimburses the bus operators for these passengers. Although the government will claim that it pays for this, in practice it merely includes a notional sum within the overall grant that it provides to the local Council. The Council is left to fund any shortfall from its own resources. So, although the Council has tried to reduce the reimbursement rate to the bus operators, the number of journeys on concessionary passes has continued to rise and so the Council is out of pocket.

On some routes where no bus operator is prepared to run a commercial service, the Council puts out to tender the route and suggested timetable. Then the bus operators bid to run services on those routes and the company making the lowest bid gets to run the service. So, on those routes the bus operator gets the fares, the concessionary fare rebate plus a sum of money each year from the Council as an overall subsidy. The budget for the subsidised routes has been cut over the past few years. Each year there has been a desperate scrabbling around trying to juggle the budget that we have against the bids from the operators and trying to find a bit more money under the mattress to plug the gaps.

In 2011, Cornwall Council was subsidising the 550/551 service to the Roseland to the sum of about £75,000 per annum and the 522 through the Clay country to St Austell to about £30,000 per annum.

After the latest tendering round, all of the 550/551 and 522 services are being run by Western Greyhound commercially without any subsidy from the Council. Therefore, Cornwall Council has no powers to intervene in any problems with operation of these routes. The only body with any powers is the Traffic Commissioner who issues authority for operators to run routes.

When WG first indicated to me that they were going to run the 550/551 and 522 services through to Treliske, I questioned this decision. First used to run the 27 service to Treliske. About a year ago, they stopped going to Treliske because this was the part of the route that caused the most problems in sticking to a timetable. They now turn the buses round at Truro bus station and their reliability has improved dramatically. WG have the additional problem of not having any slack built into their timetables anywhere and so any traffic problems mean that they are not just running late on one particular service, but it has the knock-on effect on all subsequent services. Then there is the problem that WG simply do not have enough reliable vehicles to provide any backup when a bus breaks down. I don't think that Mark Howarth has done this because he has forgotten how to run reliable services; rather it is that the financial constraints mean that he has no choice but to try to work all buses to the maximum all day long and to have no slack in the system.

I fear for the future with Western Greyhound. But if they do not survive, the Council does not have the resources to plug the gap and it is very unlikely that any other operator would do any more than just cherry pick a few of the WG routes. If WG does not survive, we will end up with a much reduced rural bus network.

There is one way of plugging the financial gap at nil cost to the Council. That is to ask concessionary pass holders to pay a flat rate fare of, say, £1 per journey. The overwhelming majority of passholders would be happy to do that. But central government expressly forbids bus operators or councils to implement such a measure. I am looking at ways whereby we could get government to change its policy. However, it is a long shot."

 

[DaveHarries]

It will be sad if WGL do fold. However they do say on their website that they "are actively recruiting additional drivers." I suspect that if it had not been for that fire a year or two back then things might not now be as bad as they are so that really seems to have been the start of the decline.

WGL were doing very well before that but no doubt the acquisition of the replacements for the lost vehicles cost WGL a fair sum.

Dave

 

[SWTH]

The decline started long before the fire. Once the brains behind the success of WGL left, the company stagnated.

 

[DaveHarries]

The decline started long before the fire. Once the brains behind the success of WGL left, the company stagnated.

Mark no longer there then? If not then I don't know who you would be thinking of. But I have used WGL when work has taken me to Cornwall and I never had any problems with them.

Dave

 

[richw]

Agreed Dave. It is highly unlikely that the insurance will have paid up on an arson incident unless someone is prosecuted. Insurance companies act like this due to unsolved arson being the biggest "insurance job" situation going.
They have replaced 2009 (59 plate) Solos with 2001-02 Darts and late 90s Solos - a clear sign of raising revenue. From what I can find online from bus dealers a 2009 Solo is worth between £30000 and £50000. A 2002 Dart between £5000 and £8000. Late 90s Solo are around £4000 to £5000.

The decline started long before the fire. Once the brains behind the success of WGL left, the company stagnated.

Are the blokes behind Cornwall Busways ex WGL staff?

I was speaking to a former driver long before the fire and they were losing contracts then due to punctuality and unsatisfactory service provided to the contract.

Mark no longer there then? If not then I don't know who you would be thinking of. But I have used WGL when work has taken me to Cornwall and I never had any problems with them.

Dave

Mark is still there. Just look at his media interviews and you'll soon gain an understanding behind the problems.

Blamed the council for not paying enough, blame the council for damaged buses from low hanging trees (he may have a point on that one though), blame the staff for sabotage, blame the bus manufacturer for putting the radiator in the wrong place are various recent excuses all being recent excuses in the media.
A strong lack of accountability.

He must be doing ok though as he has posted a number of pictures of his expensive holidays publically online including first class air travel looking very nice that most of us can only dream of!

 

[SWTH]

Mark no longer there then? If not then I don't know who you would be thinking of. But I have used WGL when work has taken me to Cornwall and I never had any problems with them.

Dave

Mark Howarth is still at WGL.

Mark wasn't and isn't the brains behind WGL. He is in charge, but doesn't like to be involved in the day to day - he rarely speaks to the drivers, and won't listen to complaints.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are the blokes behind Cornwall Busways ex WGL staff?

One is, but he was a driver at WGL.

 

[Busaholic]

The problem when arson is 'suspected' (and I don't recall arson ever having been 'proved' until someone is convicted of same) is that many business arsons have been thought to be, and even a few proved to be, instigated by business owners or their associates for a financial gain, or possibly to destroy records or other evidence. When people are arrested on suspicion of arson, are given police bail, which is then extended, and still are neither charged and brought to court nor released without charge then the rumourmill can keep on turning and a vacuum is established. The 'system' is to blame for this IMO - I always thought police bail was a lousy concept and the courts should be involved at the earliest opportunity, as in most democratic countries. Meanwhile WG won't see more than a piddling amount of monet from their insurers.

On the subject of Mark Howarth, most of his peers seem to hold him in high regard as seen at the trade awards ceremonies, but like everyone reasonably successful he will inevitably have made enemies or made some jealous somewhere along the line, most likely when he thought he could do a better job than First in Cornwall, which he certainly did for a while. Some of the comments on this site must be read bearing this in mind.

 

[swifty]

The decline started long before the fire. Once the brains behind the success of WGL left, the company stagnated.

Would that be Robin by any chance?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The decline started long before the fire. Once the brains behind the success of WGL left, the company stagnated.

I think I mentioned this before (apologies if I have) but I experienced the Helston area services in early 2012 before they were lost to FDC. The standards experienced were pretty awful with buses being filthy inside and out, poor driving standards, poorly turned out drivers, and usually at least 10 mins late.

Clearly, the issues that were evident then have continued and been exacerbated. Obviously, not helped by two disastrous fires, tender losses and the cuts in ENCTS remuneration but the structural issues were evident before then.

I don't expect WG to fall over imminently and they are recruiting. After all, the same happened to Webberbus and they're still here

 

[richw]

I don't expect WG to fall over imminently and they are recruiting. After all, the same happened to Webberbus and they're still here

Are they recruiting, or is it just a show on their website?

First have just had a massive recruitment drive due to expansion. I don't see there being many decent drivers left looking for work in the area.

 

[SWTH]

Would that be Robin by any chance?

No. Though he did resign his directorship last year.

 

[Busaholic]

I think I mentioned this before (apologies if I have) but I experienced the Helston area services in early 2012 before they were lost to FDC. The standards experienced were pretty awful with buses being filthy inside and out, poor driving standards, poorly turned out drivers, and usually at least 10 mins late.

Clearly, the issues that were evident then have continued and been exacerbated. Obviously, not helped by two disastrous fires, tender losses and the cuts in ENCTS remuneration but the structural issues were evident before then.

I don't expect WG to fall over imminently and they are recruiting. After all, the same happened to Webberbus and they're still here

When FDC took over the Helston services the front page article in the local newspaper a couple of weeks later was about rude and unco-operative drivers and the buses being late! It was compounded by certain FDC drivers taking to social media and in turn complaining about their passengers: in view of what you say, perhaps the drivers switched company and perhaps the schedules prepared by Cornwall Council for their tendered services were unrealistic!

 

[SWTH]

On the subject of Mark Howarth, most of his peers seem to hold him in high regard as seen at the trade awards ceremonies, but like everyone reasonably successful he will inevitably have made enemies or made some jealous somewhere along the line, most likely when he thought he could do a better job than First in Cornwall, which he certainly did for a while. Some of the comments on this site must be read bearing this in mind.

As I've said before, Mark Howarth is not the man who built the business - he was happy to take the credit and do all the director-level stuff, but anything to do with running the company day-to-day was left to the operations manager, up to and including tendering and expansion. All Howarth did was sign off on it. There's no jealousy or envy involved - the man has left his company to stagnate and rot. Nothing to do with First - who have done nothing until now to directly compete - the company has been causing its own downfall without any outside assistance.

If you go into the offices at Summercourt, there are several rows of awards on the walls. However, apart from the award given after the fire, none are from 2011 onwards. Quite telling, wouldn't you say?

 

[robertclark125]

Let's hope Western Greyhound do survive. If they don't, how will they be best remembered in peoples eyes?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When FDC took over the Helston services the front page article in the local newspaper a couple of weeks later was about rude and unco-operative drivers and the buses being late! It was compounded by certain FDC drivers taking to social media and in turn complaining about their passengers: in view of what you say, perhaps the drivers switched company and perhaps the schedules prepared by Cornwall Council for their tendered services were unrealistic!

I don't know about the FDC standards (though I know they had some rather antiquated Darts from Bristol).

Just an observation on WG and somewhat worse than I'd anticipated, compared to earlier experiences round Newquay a few years earlier

 

[richw]

Let's hope Western Greyhound do survive. If they don't, how will they be best remembered in peoples eyes?

I'd like to think pre 2010 and the great company they were.

However people will remember the latter bad days I fear.