Western europe - do you train it or fly it?

[Intermodal]

Hi all,

I was wondering what the general (albeit biased) opinion of this forum was about whether they would prefer to fly to western Europe (Paris, Spain, Brussels, the Netherlands), or take the train.

It's a difficult one for me - I would much prefer to take the train, but as I am based in either Middlesbrough, Portsmouth or Liverpool depending what phase of the moon it is, it is generally far more expensive for me to get to London and buy a Eurostar ticket - even when baggage allowances come into play. I can get a ticket from Liverpool Airport to Amsterdam for around £20, or £40-50 with bags, and it would cost me maybe £40 at an optimistic minimum for the Eurostar alone, plus usually double that for the travel down to St. Pancake!

I hate flying, although I do it regularly, the experience truly sucks - security is a true episode of needless theatre and scare tactics at airports these days, the waiting around in a (locked in) lounge is awful, and baggage allowances can be very limiting. Eurostar seems like a much more civilised option, but only seems affordable for those that live in the capital.

Thoughts?

 

[AndrewNewens]

Living in Darlington I face the same issues. I just went Eurostar to Amsterdam on the first day of the new service which was great, but came back on the Ferry. DFDS do an overnight crossing from Newcastle to Amsterdam and I think there is a North Sea Ferry Service from Hull, again overnight to Rotterdam I think. The DFDS service was relatively cheap and gets you to just outside Amsterdam Centraal by about 10am local time. From there are international services to various destinations in Germany, Belgium and France..... Much as I enjoy the Eurostar experience, I'm thinking of using the ferry to Amsterdam the next time I travel to the mainland and take the train onward from there.

 

[radamfi]

Even if you live in the SE, Eurostar is far from a no-brainer, mainly because of the high fares and the large number of airports to choose from, one of which will probably be more convenient than St Pancras. I used the train more frequently before Eurostar services began. Before Eurostar, you could always get a reasonable rail-sea-rail fare and you had more ferries to choose from. There is no longer a ferry service to Oostende, meaning you have to use Eurostar or go through Calais to get to Belgium. Through rail-sea-rail fares no longer exist on the Calais route and you have to make your own way to/from the ports. Foot passengers can no longer use certain overnight sailings and can't use the Dunkerque route.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The DFDS route is a good bet for a more relaxed, higher quality option. Not all is golden with Eurostar: it too has its security and passport control headaches, particularly when two trains are time to depart to StP within a few minutes of each other. The terminal, realistically, cannot cope with such volumes and, when crushes happen, the Eurostar trains are sometimes late leaving. The standard class catering is going downhill and is pricey, so I would just keep biting one's lip and stick with the £20 fares from John Lennon airport!

 

[duesselmartin]

I train it (from Düsseldorf) If it can be done in a day. To Oxford regulary yes. South Milan is the limit. Spain, too much hastle.
Paris, train is city centre to centre fastest.

 

[AlexNL]

Living in Darlington I face the same issues. I just went Eurostar to Amsterdam on the first day of the new service which was great, but came back on the Ferry. DFDS do an overnight crossing from Newcastle to Amsterdam and I think there is a North Sea Ferry Service from Hull, again overnight to Rotterdam I think. The DFDS service was relatively cheap and gets you to just outside Amsterdam Centraal by about 10am local time. From there are international services to various destinations in Germany, Belgium and France..... Much as I enjoy the Eurostar experience, I'm thinking of using the ferry to Amsterdam the next time I travel to the mainland and take the train onward from there.

There are also ferries between Harwich and Hook of Holland. There's one daytime ferry and one overnight.

From Hook of Holland to Rotterdam you'll have to take a bus though, as the "Hoekse Lijn" light rail conversion project has seen serious delays.

 

[farci]

Up here in Scotland Eurostar is out of the question for business trips since it takes nearly five hours to get to London from Glasgow/Edinburgh. That's unlikely to change in the next few years. However, I regulalrly take a frequent and reasonably priced plane to AMS then from Schiphol use the Dutch & German rail networks for easy and fast connections as far south as Frankfurt

 

[hexagon789]

I would prefer the train but it takes too long from up here really so the plane is definitely the quicker if less interesting option. I have done Glasgow-London by Sleeper abd Eurostar to Paris the following day, which was enjoyable but obviously time consuming.

 

[nlogax]

I live in London, so train to Paris, Brussels, Bruges or Amsterdam is a no-brainer. Beyond that it's a case of diminishing returns in terms of train benefits..flying just seems easier to Spain, Italy and Austria. Until DB manage to get a service through the tunnel that'll be the case for Germany too.

 

[duesselmartin]

I would prefer the train but it takes too long from up here really so the plane is definitely the quicker if less interesting option. I have done Glasgow-London by Sleeper abd Eurostar to Paris the following day, which was enjoyable but obviously time consuming.

I was always surprised of the vibrant internal flight business in the UK. During my 4 years in Aberdeen in the 1990s, nobody I knew would have taken a train to Manchester, or even London.
I remember buying a rail&sail ticket and the ticket office tried to convince me to book with Ryanair. I had to insist that I was at a train station to a train. The booking then took at least 30 min as the person did not know how it was done. So even then, on a relatively short distance, booking international journeys by rail was an adventure in its self.

 

[hexagon789]

I was always surprised of the vibrant internal flight business in the UK. During my 4 years in Aberdeen in the 1990s, nobody I knew would have taken a train to Manchester, or even London.
I remember buying a rail&sail ticket and the ticket office tried to convince me to book with Ryanair. I had to insist that I was at a train station to a train. The booking then took at least 30 min as the person did not know how it was done. So even then, on a relatively short distance, booking international journeys by rail was an adventure in its self.

The growth of budget airlines in the 1990s basically killed off the plan to run Eurostars north of London. I think that even if Eurostars were to run over HS2 and HS2 ran right up to Edinburgh or Glasgow the journey time would still not likely be competitive enough.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Personally, if I'm paying out of my own pocket, I would fly every time to France rather than take Eurostar.

Eurostar is hugely overpriced, aimed at well-heeled central London dwellers and well- (over?)-paid City workers rather than us plebs out in the suburbs. In actual fact, from where we live in South London to central Paris takes about the same time via Gatwick - and Easyjet fares look like loose change, in comparison to Eurostar.

 

[hexagon789]

Personally, if I'm paying out of my own pocket, I would fly every time to France rather than take Eurostar.

Eurostar is hugely overpriced, aimed at well-heeled central London dwellers and well- (over?)-paid City workers rather than us plebs out in the suburbs. In actual fact, from where we live in South London to central Paris takes about the same time via Gatwick - and Easyjet fares look like loose change, in comparison to Eurostar.

It definitely is overpriced, which is why I'm glad I only paid the Standard fare to travel in Business Premier - the difference was about £112 at the time.

 

[Merseysider]

If my destination in Germany isn’t particularly well served by an airport, eg Germersheim, then the train wins. DB’s London-Spezial fares are very reasonable when booked far enough ahead.

Unfortunately Eurostar is simply too expensive to use on a regular basis - the additional time to travel down from Manchester is neither here nor there - but I can’t justify paying £100+ all the way when Ryanair get me there for a third of that.

If Eurostar Snap fares and/or their £28 youth fares were more widely available I’d probably use them a lot more!

I did grab a £28 ticket through the tunnel for June, but only as part of a return with another £28 ticket back. Oddly enough this was cheaper than paying for a single.

 

[Matt_pool]

In the past 10 years I have flown (usually from Liverpool but also from Bristol and Manchester on a couple of occasions) over to Europe. I have also done Harwich - Hook (Stena Line) once, Hull - Rotterdam (P&O) once, and Newcastle - Ijmuiden (DFDS) once.

On the return journeys I have only flown back 4 or 5 times. Every other time I have taken the train back to the UK from as far away as Prague (twice, inc overnight sleeper via Amsterdam), Krakow, Berlin and Marseille, but usually shorter distances from places in the Netherlands and Belgium.

I'm not a big fan of flying - security, rip off departure lounge, cramped seats on the plane, the other passengers etc!

The advantage of coming back on Eurostar is that there are no liquid restrictions so I can bring back several bottles of nice Belgian beer or French wine. Yes, it takes longer than flying, especially when you take into account that I then have to get a train back from Euston up north, but I'm never really in a rush and see it all as part of the trip.

I'm already planning another trip to Poland or Czech Republic and I will fly out, but will definitely get the train home (not all in one day of course, I always stop off somewhere for the night in Germany or Belgium) . And I am planning another trip to the Netherlands but will almost certainly get the train there and back for the first time, although it will probably be a one off just to check out the new direct service, and it will also be a first because I have never started a Eurostar journey from St Pancras.

 

[Segedunum]

Eurostar being usually prohibitively expensive means that Ryanair wins my business.

Flew from Stansted to Basel this morning, £12.99- Arrived at the Airport at about 05:45 and was on a train heading south out of Basel SBB four hours later.

Even if you compared that to St Pancras to Basel, the cost and time just make it unviable.

 

[leshuttle]

From West Kent to West Western Europe it's good for some of my trips when connecting at Ashford with a CSV ticket which can be really convenient and stress-free although few Eurostar stop there now. Ebbsfleet has better frequency but is less easy to get to from where I am without any CSV fares available meaning a hefty fare on top as Southeastern don't have the cheapest fares. It makes more sense for me to go from St Pancras most of the time but that's still £30 on top of the Eurostar ticket for a CSV return.

Flights alone are generally cheaper but there's still travel costs and time to and from the airport which might be during peak time particularly for early morning flights.

The Any Dutch/Any Belgian stations combination tickets are good value for travel the other end which as far as I'm aware budget airlines don't offer - Lufthansa/DB maybe? Likewise for ferries - Stena Line offer the Any Greater Anglia and Any Dutch stations as part of the Rail Sail option.

 

[Dougal2345]

It seems like everyone is discussing this based on price and convenience.

Without wishing to seem holier than thou, does no one take environmental factors into consideration?

 

[317666]

Generally I've always opted to take the train, although I'm now pretty bored of high speed rail and have had quite a few bad experiences with Eurostar, so I'm less bothered about flying somewhere instead unless the rail journey involves something more interesting like a sleeper. An exception to this is the Netherlands, Belgium and northern Germany, for which I will always use Stena Line's overnight ferry from Harwich to Hoek van Holland if I can. Living in East Anglia it's just as convenient for me as Eurostar from London, and I've always found it to be spot on time and a very relaxed experience - I'd wholeheartedly recommend it!

To give an example of all my points above, last time I visited Switzerland in September 2016 I took the night ferry to the Netherlands, spent a day in Utrecht (including the Spoorwegmuseum, natuurlijk!), then caught the Amsterdam - Zürich CityNightLine sleeper that night. A long, but enjoyable and rewarding journey, with an interesting stopover along the way. I'm going again this August, but with the Amsterdam - Zürich sleeper having been axed there's now little alternative but to take Eurostar to Paris and a TGV from there. Having been on plenty of Eurostars and TGVs before I don't feel that the dull, longer and more expensive journey is worth it compared to flying, so SWISS/Helvetic Airways have got my custom this time!

 

[FQTV]

It seems like everyone is discussing this based on price and convenience.

Without wishing to seem holier than thou, does no one take environmental factors into consideration?

I went on a DB/Eurostar press trip to Cologne a few years ago and the whole thing was, quite frankly, a farce of disjointed operations and buck-passing.

That I’d originated north of Watford, requiring an overnight stay in London to even begin the lunacy, convinced me that, irrespective of price, it was an utterly pointless task trying to convince those living outside TfL Zone 3 that high-speed rail is in any way a rational alternative to short haul flying.

Since then, commercial aviation has become immeasurably less convenient in itself, with even the legacy carriers racing to the bottom, to such an extent that they can actually make the no frills upstarts look more professional.

If more and more short haul business day trips can be converted into the use of technology, and more discretionary leisure travel can be encouraged towards less environmentally compromising modes, then there’s perhaps a brighter future for rail.

The likelihood is, however, that the ‘hard’ factors of convenience, comfort, cost, connection protection etc., will be the ones that have most traction in driving decisions to change behaviour, rather than the ‘soft’ ones of sustainability, nice view etc.

Once the latter are being enjoyed, however, they’re often quite hard to give up.

Personally, despite the Cologne experience, I’m actively spending time trying to work out ways to make long distance (international) rail work for me, and if I can do so I’ll be trying to encourage others to follow my lead, having done the legwork.

On that subject: Nightjet. It’s superb!

 

[duesselmartin]

It seems like everyone is discussing this based on price and convenience.

Without wishing to seem holier than thou, does no one take environmental factors into consideration?

To a certain extend yes, but a Düsseldorf to Ajaccio service by train is hardly doable in a day. The environental aspect of a ferry questionable.
As to cost. Often the option is cheap or dont so it at all.

 

[gazthomas]

As much as I hate flying it is almost always cheaper and with the exception of Paris and Brussels faster than train. And when I say cheaper often very cheap, beating GB train tickets by a country mile!

 

[Polarbear]

For me, much depends on how much time I have at my disposal. I'm based in Merseyside so have access to Liverpool & Manchester airports

Regarding costs, I agree that E* is overpriced (unless you book way in advance & avoid "peak" services). Since the rules regarding Inter Rail on E* & in ones home country to get to/ from the border, it's been more cost effective to use Inter Rails. Of course, they have to be booked in advance too, so lack flexibility.

 

[Intermodal]

Without wishing to seem holier than thou, does no one take environmental factors into consideration?

I certainly take them into consideration, and my moral compass tugs at me - but frankly, most of my trips are on business - I am self employed, I do not earn much, and I will always consider putting food on the table before paying higher personal expenses to save the environment, however important that may be long term.

When I go on holiday I try not to fly as much as possible, and use ferries/Eurostar, as I am doing on my holiday to Europe in June. This is because I have time to consider and save for a holiday, but I do not have this opportunity for a business trip. I simply must take the cheapest option to remain in profit.

 

[306024]

Generally I've always opted to take the train, although I'm now pretty bored of high speed rail and have had quite a few bad experiences with Eurostar, so I'm less bothered about flying somewhere instead unless the rail journey involves something more interesting like a sleeper. An exception to this is the Netherlands, Belgium and northern Germany, for which I will always use Stena Line's overnight ferry from Harwich to Hoek van Holland if I can. Living in East Anglia it's just as convenient for me as Eurostar from London, and I've always found it to be spot on time and a very relaxed experience - I'd wholeheartedly recommend it!

Couldn’t agree more, my first choice for short trips. Shame you have to get the 711 bus from the Hoek to Schiedam at the moment but that’s no great problem.

The novelty of Eurostar has worn off, so flying from London City is my second preference, then Eurostar from Ebbsfleet, and finally traipsing right across to Heathrow, only to fly over home some four hours later.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As much as possible, train for me.

I have done family trips to Russelsheim ( a suburb of Frankfurt ) via Eurostar and ICE and to Lourdes via Eurostar and TGV.

 

[30907]

I do my best to avoid flying, and particularly multi-leg flights, but it isn't always possible, especially when travelling with other people - coordinating diaries to factor in the extra travel time is difficult (and bearing in mind that MAN and LBA are close by...)
Generally I will avoid flying, but sometimes the schedules make it too attractive.
For example, in a couple of weeks I am doing Blackburn-Quedlinburg (in the Harz) in a day, flying MAN-Schoenefeld. By rail, I would have lost a full day's holiday - I manage my own diary, but there are some things I can't work around.
For summer holidays we prefer self catering, and taking the car is attractive, certainly for France (the almost total demise of AutoTrain is sad....).

 

[43096]

Depends where I'm going.....

Living in the south east, I have a choice of airports and Eurostar.
If it's Benelux, then Eurostar wins - just a whole lot easier. Further afield and it tends to be flying. That said, off to Switzerland later in the month and am going Eurostar to Paris, ICE to Strasbourg etc etc (and back through Germany, Luxembourg and Eurostar from Brussels).

Staying in Olten, which can comfortably be done in a day by train (French unions permitting...). But flying, and it would be several hours less: get an 06xx early flight from Gatwick and I can be in Zürich Hbf by 1030.

 

[bspahh]

I live in Ely. I like travelling by train and ferry, but fly when I have to. Stansted is the most convenient airport for me, and has lots of cheap flights. However, when I walk through the duty free, it feels like I'm being assaulted, by the bright lights.

I am usually travelling for work, and I'm not that price sensitive. However, if flying means I can finish work, and get home that evening, then its hard to justify taking longer. At the moment, the last Eurostar from Brussels leaves at 19:52. A Eurostar departure from Brussels after 9pm would mean that I could finish work at 5pm in Cologne or Amsterdam and make it home.

In the May, I'm going to the Netherlands on the ferry from Harwich and back by train. I'm also going to Basel via Brussels and Cologne. Flying would have been several hours quicker and a bit cheaper, but I'll be able to do more work on the train.

 

[duesselmartin]

Interesting statement from bspahh.
I find that my employer does not understand the train option unless its a very short distance with no flight available.