Westbahn will run Munich-Vienna from April in competition with Railjet

[WestCoast]

An interesting development is that three of the daily 'Westgreen' train from Vienna Wbf to Salzburg will be extended into Germany to/from Munich Hbf. The Westbahn trains will be operated by Meridian on the German section after Salzburg taking over paths from existing Meridian Munich-Salzburg runs with the same stopping pattern.

There has been a cooperation between Westbahn and Meridian with through tickets but passengers have changed at Salzburg so this will certainly be useful especially for late bookings as I imagine Westbahn will undercut DB/OBB. Ticket prices not published but I imagine you'll be able to buy them from Westbahn and probably Flixbus as well.

Source: https://westbahn.at/en/munich/

WESTbahn through connections from Vienna to Munich (and back)
Starting these next weeks, WESTbahn in cooperation with Bavarian Meridian will offer three daily through connections from Vienna Westbahnhof to Munich Hauptbahnhof.

All Austrian WESTbahn stops as well as all regular Bavarian Meridian stops between Salzburg and Munich Hauptbahnhof will be met. We will publicize information on tariffs and booking options these upcoming weeks. By the way: Travellers can of course use any tickets that are currently valid in Meridian in the Bavarian section.

The through connections will be provided with WESTbahn´s KISS 2 train sets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Westbahn's Flirts are a bit slower (8 minutes) between Salzburg and Vienna Hbf than ÖBB's RailJets (but conveniently go on to the city centre on the S-bahn line).
The difference between Meridian services and ÖBB's is a bit more marked between Munich and Salzburg, reflecting the stopping pattern.
I find the Flirts perfectly adequate for a fast regional service, but others seem to think they are inferior to the RJ LHCS.
Not a lot in it.
Connections currently are poor, generally 40 minutes between trains at Salzburg.
(Correction: scrub all that, I was looking at the Vienna Hbf services, the connections are much better to/from the Westbf services).
Ticketing will be interesting.
Meridian as a "franchise" offers the Bavarian fare structure in Germany (eg the off-peak Bayernticket), but Westbahn as an open access operator does not in Austria.

 

[cactustwirly]

An interesting development is that three of the daily 'Westgreen' train from Vienna Wbf to Salzburg will be extended into Germany to/from Munich Hbf. The Westbahn trains will be operated by Meridian on the German section after Salzburg taking over paths from existing Meridian Munich-Salzburg runs with the same stopping pattern.

There has been a cooperation between Westbahn and Meridian with through tickets but passengers have changed at Salzburg so this will certainly be useful especially for late bookings as I imagine Westbahn will undercut DB/OBB. Ticket prices not published but I imagine you'll be able to buy them from Westbahn and probably Flixbus as well.

Source: https://westbahn.at/en/munich/

Interesting, but only 3x a day and, it takes a lot longer than the RJx.
I'd expect DB to drop the prices of their leg, as the OEBB Sparscheine tickets (from Salzburg to Vienna) are more competitive

 

[43096]

Westbahn's Flirts are a bit slower (8 minutes) between Salzburg and Vienna Hbf than ÖBB's RailJets (but conveniently go on to the city centre on the S-bahn line).
The difference between Meridian services and ÖBB's is a bit more marked between Munich and Salzburg, reflecting the stopping pattern.
I find the Flirts perfectly adequate for a fast regional service, but others seem to think they are inferior to the RJ LHCS.
Not a lot in it.
Connections currently are poor, generally 40 minutes between trains at Salzburg.
(Correction: scrub all that, I was looking at the Vienna Hbf services, the connections are much better to/from the Westbf services).
Ticketing will be interesting.
Meridian as a "franchise" offers the Bavarian fare structure in Germany (eg the off-peak Bayernticket), but Westbahn as an open access operator does not in Austria.

Westbahn have KISS units, not FLIRTs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much as I dislike double-deck stock, this will help solve the serious overcrowding problem you get on the single-deck FLIRTs in summer.

 

[F Great Eastern]

For me it's still a RailJet every time unless there was a decent saving to be had.

 

[cactustwirly]

Much as I dislike double-deck stock, this will help solve the serious overcrowding problem you get on the single-deck FLIRTs in summer.

But still when compared to a RailJet?
I'd take the RJ any day of the week!

 

[WestCoast]

Good points here. Having travelled on the Westbahn KISS units I do find them quite nice, lots of tables, decent seats and even lounge/cafe areas - bit like SBB’s intercity double deck stock. They also have an interesting model of having up to 8 ‘stewards’ per 8-car set that check/sell tickets and serve refreshments on both levels of their coach, not sure if they do the doors as well or if there’s a lead guard I didn’t see. Also interesting is the possibility to travel in their Plus car for a rather small supplement which guarantees the seat next to you free.

Not sure if these staff will stay on the train after Salzburg through to Munich.

The big question will be who will sell the tickets, Westbahn tickets can’t even be bought at every station in Austria that Westbahn serve because ÖBB will not sell their tickets at their machines and there’s no inter-available tickets. They now have opened shops in the main stations now where tickets can be bought but it used to be buy online or onboard only. This seems to be pretty standard for open access on the continent.

How this will be handled in Germany for tickets to Austria is a mystery at the moment. Meridian have their own machines so maybe they will be available via them but no ticket office as far as I know - doubt DB will sell them at all as they will only want to work with ÖBB I suspect.

 

[WestCoast]

But still when compared to a RailJet?
I'd take the RJ any day of the week!

Sure but ÖBB allow passengers to use Railjets with all sorts of tickets e.g. I recently travelled back/forth from Vienna Hbf to Vienna Airport on Railjet paying just the standard local ticket price. Meaning people in Austria can use them for shorter trips.

However when the Railjets cross into Germany they are premium priced like an ICE which makes them pretty uncompetitive on the Salzburg - Munich run. This is why loads pile onto the Meridian FLIRTs and they become very overcrowded in summer with all the intermediate passengers too. So definitely this will be a boost to capacity for this flow, pretty much win-win all round and good to see two totally separately owned rail companies managing to cooperate like this!

 

[cactustwirly]

Sure but ÖBB allow passengers to use Railjets with all sorts of tickets e.g. I recently travelled back/forth from Vienna Hbf to Vienna Airport on Railjet paying just the standard local ticket price. Meaning people in Austria can use them for shorter trips.

However when the Railjets cross into Germany they are premium priced like an ICE which makes them pretty uncompetitive on the Salzburg - Munich run. This is why loads pile onto the Meridian FLIRTs and they become very overcrowded in summer with all the intermediate passengers too. So definitely this will be a boost to capacity for this flow, pretty much win-win all round and good to see two totally separately owned rail companies managing to cooperate like this!

I noticed this, it's because the Munich - Salzburg leg is priced by DB, but the rest is priced by OeBB, who tend to be more competitively priced.

I remember when I was looking into traveling on EC113 (Frankfurt - Zagreb) the Munich - Salzburg leg had to be booked separately (no through fares from Germany) and the Sparpries ticket was the same price as, Salzburg to Ljubljana on the SAME train!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But still when compared to a RailJet?
I'd take the RJ any day of the week!

The Bayern-Ticket ensures that plenty don't, particularly if travelling in a group.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However when the Railjets cross into Germany they are premium priced like an ICE which makes them pretty uncompetitive on the Salzburg - Munich run. This is why loads pile onto the Meridian FLIRTs and they become very overcrowded in summer with all the intermediate passengers too. So definitely this will be a boost to capacity for this flow, pretty much win-win all round and good to see two totally separately owned rail companies managing to cooperate like this!

What's quite interesting is that this is allowed in Germany but not in the UK. It's near identical to what Chiltern and WSMR tried to do, which was one of the things that led to WSMR's demise - the Government made it very clear that TOCs could not subcontract their franchised operations to open-access operators, which is precisely what this is.

 

[nw1]

I have been on the Meridians once (they're the quickest way to get from Munich to Berchtesgaden, or at least they were in 2014, as they have good connections at Freilassing whereas the intercity connections to the Berchtesgaden branch were poor) and I do recall them pretty much being all-stations from somewhere close to Munich to Freilassing then fast into Salzburg.

The savings will have to be pretty significant for Vienna Munich travel.. can't imagine travelling on a service which is all-stations for a significant distance will be too attractive unless it's _significantly_ cheaper than the intercity options.

BTW are there still "regular ICs" on this route? I remember in 2014 the pattern on the faster Munich Salzburg trains was something like an hourly intercity, alternating between RailJet Munich/Vienna and regular IC, running from Slovenia or southern Austria to somewhere like Frankfurt. The other RailJet (of an hourly Salzburg-Vienna service) went towards Innsbruck if I remember correctly and I also seem to remember some slightly-slower "regular ICs", with a few more stops, running "local" Salzburg to Vienna every two hours.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current pattern from Munich to Salzburg is an hourly RJ/EC alternating between a Vienna RJ and an EC to somewhere on the Tauern/Graz routes.
Mostly they are non-stop to Salzburg in 1h28.
Meridians are also hourly, but stop at most stations (10 stops is typical) taking 1h47.
As they stop at München Ost, they connect well with Flughafen S-bahn trains.
On the Innsbrück route, the ECs are 2-hourly (mostly continuing to Italy), and the Meridian stoppers are hourly to Kufstein.
When I travelled with them, it was on a double Meridian set which divided at Rosenheim.

Flexpreis seems to be €35 on RJ/EC and €33.10 on M, but on M you can use a Bayernticket off-peak for €25 (€23 after 1800, which was my case).
Sparpreis on RJ/EC could be €19.90, but arriving by easyJet I couldn't trust to a specific connection.

The 3 Westbahn/Meridian through connections seem to be just the normal timetabled trains, not extras between Salzburg and Munich.
You could just as easily travel at other hours in the same times.
Vienna-Munich on Westbahn/M takes 4h43, on RJ it would be 4h (taking RJ times at Meidling as similar to Westbf on WB).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flexpreis seems to be €35 on RJ/EC and €33.10 on M, but on M you can use a Bayernticket off-peak for €25 (€23 after 1800, which was my case).

Even cheaper per head in a group.

 

[tasky]

I have been on the Meridians once (they're the quickest way to get from Munich to Berchtesgaden, or at least they were in 2014, as they have good connections at Freilassing whereas the intercity connections to the Berchtesgaden branch were poor) and I do recall them pretty much being all-stations from somewhere close to Munich to Freilassing then fast into Salzburg.

The savings will have to be pretty significant for Vienna Munich travel.. can't imagine travelling on a service which is all-stations for a significant distance will be too attractive unless it's _significantly_ cheaper than the intercity options.

BTW are there still "regular ICs" on this route? I remember in 2014 the pattern on the faster Munich Salzburg trains was something like an hourly intercity, alternating between RailJet Munich/Vienna and regular IC, running from Slovenia or southern Austria to somewhere like Frankfurt. The other RailJet (of an hourly Salzburg-Vienna service) went towards Innsbruck if I remember correctly and I also seem to remember some slightly-slower "regular ICs", with a few more stops, running "local" Salzburg to Vienna every two hours.

Yep, DB do an IC/EC service to Frankfurt, from at least Salzburg - I took it last year and it was very pleasant.

 

[Groningen]

According to a tweet of European Timetable the start of this service is now planned for June 2019.

 

[dutchflyer]

But other later news seems to suggest its for now cancelled alltogether/or at least for this year unbtill timetable change in dec.