West Yorkshire To Glasgow

[MichaelTrains]

Does anyone know why this route is so poorly served?

Wasn't the old Leeds to Glasgow service profitable?

Surely there is big demand from the West Yorkshire cities and towns of Bradford, Leeds, Halifax, Huddersfield and Wakefield?

I’m currently on a train to Manchester from Huddersfield heading to Glasgow via a change at Picadilly and it’s apparent there's myself and a number of other people from West Yorkshire going this long articulated way.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Does anyone know why this route is so poorly served?

Wasn't the old Leeds to Glasgow service profitable?

Surely there is big demand from the West Yorkshire cities and towns of Bradford, Leeds, Halifax, Huddersfield and Wakefield?

I’m currently on a train to Manchester from Huddersfield heading to Glasgow via a change at Picadilly and it’s apparent there's myself and a number of other people from West Yorkshire going this long articulated way.

You would still have to change once from Huddersfield.

From Leeds, you have an hourly service to Preston with hourly connections to Glasgow or an hourly Cross Country with connections at Edinburgh. This is quicker and more frequent than the long-gone service via the S&C.

 

[Iskra]

While I agree a through train from the East Midlands to Glasgow via Sheffield and West Yorkshire would be useful and I believe popular enough; it is currently only one easy change at Manchester Piccadilly, Preston, Carlisle or Edinburgh so it is a market that is adequately catered for via a number of different routes.

 

[DarloRich]

While I agree a through train from the East Midlands to Glasgow via Sheffield and West Yorkshire would be useful and I believe popular enough; it is currently only one easy change at Manchester Piccadilly, Preston, Carlisle or Edinburgh so it is a market that is adequately catered for via a number of different routes.

Do Cross Country not run that route anymore? ( i would rather walk than use XC so have no idea what thier service pattern is like these days)

 

[Tetchytyke]

CrossCountry staffing issues are the main reason. XC used to operate 2-hourly from Leeds to Glasgow Central but this has fallen away since Covid. They now only operate one direct train per day in each direction.

 

[syorksdeano]

When I do that journey I prefer to go from Leeds via Settle and changing at Carlisle. Nice quite journey, which may take longer but can be a hell of a lot cheaper

 

[Iskra]

Do Cross Country not run that route anymore? ( i would rather walk than use XC so have no idea what thier service pattern is like these days)

No, the only Yorkshire-Glasgow Central direct service appears to be an LNER one, once per day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2024 ==

When I do that journey I prefer to go from Leeds via Settle and changing at Carlisle. Nice quite journey, which may take longer but can be a hell of a lot cheaper

This is my preference too, although Sheffield-Glasgow via Manchester Pic is perfectly adequate.

 

[DarloRich]

no, the only Yorkshire-Glasgow Central direct service appears to be an LNER one, once per day.

oh - that is a poor show!

 

[MichaelAMW]

Having checked the archive, direct trains from Leeds in 1980 took about 4 hours, which is the same as the OP's journey from Huddersfield today, so exta time would have been needed for travel to Leeds and changing. That's similar to today's journey times, albeit with a change, but you have at least a couple of options every hour. (Turns out that direct to Preston is actually quite slow.)

There were three trains a day in 1980.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I live in Leeds and when going to Glasgow i avoid the S and C like the plague and will tend to go via the ECML for reliability, comfort and frequency

 

[Tetchytyke]

No, the only Yorkshire-Glasgow Central direct service appears to be an LNER one, once per day.

XC are supposed to still run one southbound in a morning via Leeds and Sheffield and one northbound in an evening.

The northbound appears to have been temporarily dropped as part of their current temporary timetable, but the southbound is still running.

 

[sannox]

No, the only Yorkshire-Glasgow Central direct service appears to be an LNER one, once per day.

Which is going to be binned shortly.

The direct Glasgow to East Coast services are very poor now and nobody cares really. There should be a direct offering to Yorkshire / Newcastle. I preferred direct services when doing Glasgow - Newcastle. Was just more pleasant.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The direct Glasgow to East Coast services are very poor now and nobody cares really.

When I used to travel that way it was usually quicker to change at Edinburgh for the shuttle to Queen Street. My experience of the GNER/NXEC/EC service when it ran 2-hourly from Central was that it mostly carried fresh air between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[syorksdeano]

This is my preference too, although Sheffield-Glasgow via Manchester Pic is perfectly adequate.

I don't mind that journey either, problem is when I was using TPE they would drop the service at little notice.

At one point I used to get the 1610 (or was it 1710) from Doncaster on a Friday, and was able to get some very cheap tickets, even for first class.

The bonus with traveling with Northern to Carlise is the delay tickets.

Thankfully I don't have to do the journey anymore unless I'm going up there to meet friends for a night out

 

[19Gnasher69]

The optimal option for travelling from West Yorkshire to Glasgow must depend on where in West Yorkshire you’re starting from.
However, assuming you’re talking about services from Leeds (or Nottingham) to Glasgow, via the Settle to Carlisle line, I suspect they weren’t profitable apart from when the line was threatened with closure so lots of people were taking a “final trip”.
In any case, after privatisation, the TOCs operating north and south of Carlisle on this route were separated so, as noted by another contributor, a change at Carlisle is required anyway.
Additionally, the rolling stock used over the S&C route is woeful - would you really want to travel from West Yorkshire (or further south) to Glasgow on a clapped-out class 158? It’s bad enough crawling over the Pennines with the engines grinding away, without adding another 80+ miles! Be careful what you wish for!!

 

[sannox]

When I used to travel that way it was usually quicker to change at Edinburgh for the shuttle to Queen Street. My experience of the GNER/NXEC/EC service when it ran 2-hourly from Central was that it mostly carried fresh air between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

It was mixed - there were some dead and others fairly well used. The Crosscounty services were better used but reliability was an issue. For me travelling to the south of Glasgow the extra change and walk to Queen Street is a complete pain.

 

[MichaelTrains]

When I do that journey I prefer to go from Leeds via Settle and changing at Carlisle. Nice quite journey, which may take longer but can be a hell of a lot cheaper

How much cheaper are we talking? I noticed cheap advances from Carlisle to Glasgow but you'd still have to get to Carlisle from West Yorkshire?

 

[D6975]

Cheaper still is to go on an advance Leeds-Man Vic (via Calder Valley), free bus to Picc, adv Picc to Glasgow C. This comes in at under £20 if you're not in a hurry, which is IMHO ridiculously cheap for such a journey.

 

[quantinghome]

The optimal option for travelling from West Yorkshire to Glasgow must depend on where in West Yorkshire you’re starting from.

True. Living in north-west Leeds, picking up the S&C at Shipley is often the best option to Glasgow for me, even Edinburgh on occasion depending on the timings. But it will be completely different if you live in east Leeds or Halifax or Wakefield or Huddersfield.

A direct service would only get off the ground if it was significantly quicker and more convenient than the present options.

Additionally, the rolling stock used over the S&C route is woeful - would you really want to travel from West Yorkshire (or further south) to Glasgow on a clapped-out class 158? It’s bad enough crawling over the Pennines with the engines grinding away, without adding another 80+ miles! Be careful what you wish for!!

They're not too bad. Far better than what came before and more comfortable than some much newer trains.

 

[30907]

Does anyone know why this route is so poorly served?

Wasn't the old Leeds to Glasgow service profitable?

How old I old?
There have been 3 different services which could be so described:
1. Cross Country via Newcastle and Edinburgh, 2-hourly pre 2020 but now infrequent.
2. Northern Spirit (?RRNE) via Settle and Beattock, once daily in 1990s
3. The pre-80s BR era service (not much changed from LMS days!), 2-3 trains daily, one of which in its last years went via Beattock but originally via Dumfries.

I'm not sure which service is being referred to at times

 

[19Gnasher69]

A direct service would only get off the ground if it was significantly quicker and more convenient than the present options.

Or offered a better passenger experience??
I don’t know whether the timings over the S&C could be accelerated in terms of infrastructure or stock. I daresay there’s little appetite for either within the modern railway.

They're not too bad. Far better than what came before and more comfortable than some much newer trains

That depends on what you’re referring to and how far back you look. They’re on a par with 156s in my view (and the 156s weren’t as old and tired when they were used). However the latter replaced 31s and 47s +8/9/10 coaches which were inherently more comfortable. But that’s simply renewing the debate about front-end power or underfloor engines on hilly routes.
The Northern 158s have reasonably nice seats but that’s as far as the accolades can go! I dread to think what foreign tourists make of slogging up the Long Drag in a 158.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I remember travelling up the S&C in April 1970 to Bradford's penultimate game in D4 at Workington before we got kicked out of the league (so Cambridge could join Oxford). This was a night game and Don Revie's Leeds were playing Celtic in the European Cup semi-final 2nd leg at Hampden on the same night with well over 100,000 present. I'd been to the first game at Elland Road which the Celts won 1-0 to my delight.

To cut a long story short, I caught the 2250-ish Workington to Carlisle then picked up the packed overnight Glasgow - Leeds at about 0130. I was too scared to ask anybody the score (2-1 to Celtic). After arriving in Leeds, I caught the 0345 Leeds - Pudsey night bus, talked my way on to a BCT staff car at Stanningley Bottom, picked up the first trolleybus out of Thornbury depot, then caught the 0445 Bradford to Queensbury bus. Workington to Great Horton in six hours by overnight public transport using six different vehicles. (Un)happy days.

 

[A S Leib]

Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and Wakefield are outside the 100 most common journeys to / from Glasgow Central, and Leeds is the 88th most common for Glasgow Queen Street, according to the ORR's figures, with 8500 journeys per year. Edinburgh – Leeds is 49,000 per year, so even bearing in mind reasons why that's a busier flow (easier, Edinburgh's more of a tourist destination), I think that's big enough of a difference that West Yorkshire – Glasgow is a lot higher than 10,000 journeys per year.

 

[quantinghome]

Or offered a better passenger experience??
I don’t know whether the timings over the S&C could be accelerated in terms of infrastructure or stock. I daresay there’s little appetite for either within the modern railway.

I have thoughts. But if we go further on this the mods will probably need to pop this thread into the speculative discussion area.

Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and Wakefield are outside the 100 most common journeys to / from Glasgow Central, and Leeds is the 88th most common for Glasgow Queen Street, according to the ORR's figures, with 8500 journeys per year. Edinburgh – Leeds is 49,000 per year, so even bearing in mind reasons why that's a busier flow (easier, Edinburgh's more of a tourist destination), I think that's big enough of a difference that West Yorkshire – Glasgow is a lot higher than 10,000 journeys per year.

Looking at the ORR figures and taking all journeys between the local authority areas rather than individual stations, we have:

67,000 journeys between West Yorkshire and Edinburgh
37,000 between West Yorkshire and Glasgow

For comparison, Birmingham and Nottingham are both in the 90-100k bracket. These are shorter journeys with hourly direct services.
Other largeish destinations with no direct service to WY and about the same journey time as Glasgow (Oxford, Reading, Cardiff) are below 10,000.

This suggests there is actually a reasonable level of demand for WY-Glasgow.

If the railway wanted to test the appetite for this, the lowest effort option would be to 'borrow' three hybrid trains and run 3-4 services each way per day with minimal stops on the S&C then fast via Beattock. You might be able to get Leeds-Glasgow down to 3h40 (it's currently 4h13 with 18 stops between Leeds and Carlisle and an 18 minute change there).

 

[Iskra]

Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and Wakefield are outside the 100 most common journeys to / from Glasgow Central, and Leeds is the 88th most common for Glasgow Queen Street, according to the ORR's figures, with 8500 journeys per year. Edinburgh – Leeds is 49,000 per year, so even bearing in mind reasons why that's a busier flow (easier, Edinburgh's more of a tourist destination), I think that's big enough of a difference that West Yorkshire – Glasgow is a lot higher than 10,000 journeys per year.

I don’t think you can read too much into those numbers. They are probably a lot higher than that in reality due to splitting and the absence of any cheap advances between West Yorkshire and Glasgow direct, due to lack of any such trains. You can’t really compare flows with direct, reasonably-priced trains against flows without and derive any sensible conclusions!

 

[InkyScrolls]

Why the 158 hate? I love them, my favourite units by far!

For any speculative discussion of Yorkshire - Glasgow services, I suggest this thread:- Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

I have asked for it to be reopened.

 

[A S Leib]

I have thoughts. But if we go further on this the mods will probably need to pop this thread into the speculative discussion area.



Looking at the ORR figures and taking all journeys between the local authority areas rather than individual stations, we have:

67,000 journeys between West Yorkshire and Edinburgh
37,000 between West Yorkshire and Glasgow

For comparison, Birmingham and Nottingham are both in the 90-100k bracket. These are shorter journeys with hourly direct services.
Other largeish destinations with no direct service to WY and about the same journey time as Glasgow (Oxford, Reading, Cardiff) are below 10,000.

This suggests there is actually a reasonable level of demand for WY-Glasgow.

If the railway wanted to test the appetite for this, the lowest effort option would be to 'borrow' three hybrid trains and run 3-4 services each way per day with minimal stops on the S&C then fast via Beattock. You might be able to get Leeds-Glasgow down to 3h40 (it's currently 4h13 with 18 stops between Leeds and Carlisle and an 18 minute change there).

I don’t think you can read too much into those numbers. They are probably a lot higher than that in reality due to splitting and the absence of any cheap advances between West Yorkshire and Glasgow direct, due to lack of any such trains. You can’t really compare flows with direct, reasonably-priced trains against flows without and derive any sensible conclusions!

That was my point; that the existence of a large number of Leeds – Edinburgh journeys suggests at least reasonable levels for other West Yorkshire – Central Belt journeys.

 

[dk1]

I recall the brief Arriva Trains Northern class 158 service from Leeds-Glasgow via the Settle & Carlisle. Incompatibility incase of failure on the WCML was one of the reasons given for its withdrawal then which seems odd considering the variety of trains operating the route now. Maybe they were just looking for an excuse.

 

[Bill57p9]

The optimal option for travelling from West Yorkshire to Glasgow must depend on where in West Yorkshire you’re starting from.
However, assuming you’re talking about services from Leeds (or Nottingham) to Glasgow, via the Settle to Carlisle line, I suspect they weren’t profitable apart from when the line was threatened with closure so lots of people were taking a “final trip”.
In any case, after privatisation, the TOCs operating north and south of Carlisle on this route were separated so, as noted by another contributor, a change at Carlisle is required anyway.
Additionally, the rolling stock used over the S&C route is woeful - would you really want to travel from West Yorkshire (or further south) to Glasgow on a clapped-out class 158? It’s bad enough crawling over the Pennines with the engines grinding away, without adding another 80+ miles! Be careful what you wish for!!

Clapped-out 158?

I am reading this on a ScotRail 156 on the GSW - the "traditional" from S&C to Glasgow. Now they are tired (despite refurbishment), noisy and have really uncomfortable seats now.
Not really appealing for long distance travel these days, but at least I am not going to Mallaig on one!

 

[route101]

Always a bit of a long way round to Leeds from Glasgow. Via ECML has higher fares but its cheaper to go via Preston or Lancaster. Advance fares to Glasgow on WCML and ECML have reduced greatly and gone up in price.