West Yorkshire Metro expansion

[Aictos]

I am very much aware that their operations only cover the West Yorkshire area with the exception of a few places on the fringe of their area such as Skipton however taking the West Midlands as a example which you have the local authority manage public transport such as Trams, Buses and Trains why not have Yorkshire do the same?

So you would have the East Riding of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire work together with a common goal under West Yorkshire's Metro with equal fares in use regardless of if you live in North Yorkshire or West Yorkshire as it would be to the end user ie you and me just one system responsible for public transport in Yorkshire.

I know this wouldn't be easy but it would be a move in the right direction I believe and what would benefit nearly 6 million people living in the area.

 

[LLivery]

18 councils of Yorkshire broadly agree with you on that. Not sure if you're aware, but there is a push for a Yorkshire wide devolution plan, with or without Sheffield & Rotherham, known as One Yorkshire. The business case is there but it'll be quite impressive if they get it approved by the Tory government who have seemed lukewarm by the idea of the provinces (or indeed home nations) having actual power like any other normal country.

There is quite a bit of info on Google and you can find the whole proposal document here:
https://www.york.gov.uk/info/20003/your_council/2238/one_yorkshire_devolution

A few relevant extracts from the devolution proposal:

This deal would deliver for Yorkshire game changing levels of capital investment in infrastructure, including in regeneration and transport, from devolved funding and fiscal powers, along with supporting additional borrowing powers for non-transport investment, and revenue support for skills and business support interventions, and greater control over the transport system to enable the region to maximise the potential of HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail. We believe that a deal of this kind offers the potential to transform productivity in the region, narrowing the growing gap with the UK minus London average, and thereby boosting the earnings power of the people and businesses of Yorkshire.

The Mayor would also hold ultimate responsibility for franchised bus services across all or part of the Combined Authority area9 , and for integrating smart ticketing across all forms of transport. The Mayor would also be able to levy a supplement on business rates10 in all or part of the region in order to finance investments in infrastructure. The Mayor would be able to exercise these functions autonomously. The allocation of portfolio responsibilities for the Cabinet would be at the Mayor’s discretion.

The Mayor and Cabinet will be supported by flexible sub regional Area Committees which recognise the functional economic linked and overlapping geographies and will undertake any functions appropriately delegated to these committees consistent with the principle of subsidiarity, including transport functions which will be exercised on behalf of the Mayor and Cabinet for the areas of all or part of South Yorkshire and of West Yorkshire. Transport powers exercisable by the Combined Authority for other parts of Yorkshire will be delegated back from the CA to the existing individual Local Transport Authorities. Overall the strategic integration of transport, and other, infrastructure will be coordinated via the Mayor’s Industrial Strategy.

 

[yorksrob]

It would certainly be about time that York in particular was brought into the fold. A "super PTE" for all Yorkshire sounds interesting. I'd want to know how it would affect metro card boundaries and pricing.

 

[30907]

I noticed that the proposals mentioned by LeeLivery involve delegating back powers over transport to WY and SY, in other words the heavily urbanised areas, which suggests little real change.

The problem for Yorkshire is that it is so diverse in transport terms - at one extreme heavily urban with frequent services, at the other extremely rural with minimal public transport. In the OP's terms, it's like including rural Herefordshire and Shropshire in the WMTA, and I could imagine the council tax payers of Wensleydale and the Wolds asking what was in it for them.

I would agree with yorksrob about incorporating York (and Harrogate).

 

[LLivery]

It would certainly be about time that York in particular was brought into the fold. A "super PTE" for all Yorkshire sounds interesting. I'd want to know how it would affect metro card boundaries and pricing.

I noticed that the proposals mentioned by LeeLivery involve delegating back powers over transport to WY and SY, in other words the heavily urbanised areas, which suggests little real change.

The problem for Yorkshire is that it is so diverse in transport terms - at one extreme heavily urban with frequent services, at the other extremely rural with minimal public transport. In the OP's terms, it's like including rural Herefordshire and Shropshire in the WMTA, and I could imagine the council tax payers of Wensleydale and the Wolds asking what was in it for them.

I would agree with yorksrob about incorporating York (and Harrogate).

This document (page 63): https://www.york.gov.uk/downloads/file/16919/one_yorkshire_report accepts the limitations the devolution would have to rail but goes on to talk about ticketing.

Ticketing – public transport prices rise steeply once journeys extend beyond a single Combined Authority (Passenger Transport Executive) boundary, for example between West and South Yorkshire, or between Leeds and Bradford and neighbouring areas in North Yorkshire such as Harrogate, York, Craven and Selby. This ‘cross-boundary premium’ acts as a price deterrent to cross-LEP travel and undermines the efficient operation of labour markets. Yorkshire devolution would make it easier and quicker to smooth out ticket prices to address this barrier and hence widen employment options for individuals, help address business skills shortages/gaps, and reap economic advantages from agglomeration.

It seems they're most ambitious about improving the bus network in the region, which I imagine would have a big effect. The problem with metropolitan devolution is the disunity between the metro area and the commuter towns which the metro area relies on for workers and visitors. It's why I could always see why Network SouthEast made perfect sense. I think arguments for devolution are strong and not fading. Maybe, in time they'd get more powers and have a stronger influence over transport.

 

[Bantamzen]

I noticed that the proposals mentioned by LeeLivery involve delegating back powers over transport to WY and SY, in other words the heavily urbanised areas, which suggests little real change.

The problem for Yorkshire is that it is so diverse in transport terms - at one extreme heavily urban with frequent services, at the other extremely rural with minimal public transport. In the OP's terms, it's like including rural Herefordshire and Shropshire in the WMTA, and I could imagine the council tax payers of Wensleydale and the Wolds asking what was in it for them.

I would agree with yorksrob about incorporating York (and Harrogate).

Its a good point, with such diverse levels of public transport the pressure would be to improve the service in the most densely populated areas, possibly at the expense of the more rural areas, at least this would be the perception at the very least. Another problem would be that Sheffield & it's surrounding region might not like being lumped in with West Yorkshire, especially as would very probably happen Leeds became the hub for the whole region as it is for West Yorks now. I could see a lot of arguments coming from South Yorkshire about that.

However lumping Harrogate, York & I would add Skipton to the Metro area would probably be far more palatable for those cities and towns, especially as commuting & leisure travel could be made a bit cheaper as Metro products become more widely available.

 

[tbtc]

Another problem would be that Sheffield & it's surrounding region might not like being lumped in with West Yorkshire, especially as would very probably happen Leeds became the hub for the whole region as it is for West Yorks now. I could see a lot of arguments coming from South Yorkshire about that

Yup - same with Hull (which is kind of Yorkshire but not really Yorkshire, depending on which way the wind is blowing). In railway operational terms you'd want Humberside as part of Yorkshire as the lines to Hull and Cleethorpes are integrated into other Yorkshire services but the lands south of the Humber area really "Lincolnshire" and the old East Riding can have the same chippy/independent attitude that Sheffield has (to being part of one big Yorkshire happy family!).

Whilst Yorkshire is varied, ScotRail manages to serve diverse areas/ markets without any *huge* accusations of favouritism (there will always be some moaning, but that's par for the course these days).

But if we are going to rip things up and have a super-PTE then I'd want some firm guarantees about the kind of service/ infrastructure/ rolling stock benefits it would bring (not just that it'd be a little cheaper than now to travel over the border from Harrogate/ Skipton into Leeds) - this kind of upheaval requires some kind of commitments to a better future beyond just extending the subsidised ticket prices outside the WY Metro area.

(there's also the problem of what TfN is going to be for, if we have a "Yorkshire" version - does that leave TfN just dealing with Manchester and surrounding places on t'other side of the hills?)

 

[sheff1]

(there's also the problem of what TfN is going to be for, if we have a "Yorkshire" version - does that leave TfN just dealing with Manchester and surrounding places on t'other side of the hills?)

Some would argue that is all TfN are interested in now.

 

[yorksrob]

I noticed that the proposals mentioned by LeeLivery involve delegating back powers over transport to WY and SY, in other words the heavily urbanised areas, which suggests little real change.

The problem for Yorkshire is that it is so diverse in transport terms - at one extreme heavily urban with frequent services, at the other extremely rural with minimal public transport. In the OP's terms, it's like including rural Herefordshire and Shropshire in the WMTA, and I could imagine the council tax payers of Wensleydale and the Wolds asking what was in it for them.

I would agree with yorksrob about incorporating York (and Harrogate).

It's an interesting one. I don't know whether the burghers of rural Yorkshire genuinely have little interest in public transport, or whether the lack of services are more a result of a lack of any power. I did hear that a previous administration in York had built up some funding to enable them to join Metro, however this was abandoned after a change in administration.

Yup - same with Hull (which is kind of Yorkshire but not really Yorkshire, depending on which way the wind is blowing). In railway operational terms you'd want Humberside as part of Yorkshire as the lines to Hull and Cleethorpes are integrated into other Yorkshire services but the lands south of the Humber area really "Lincolnshire" and the old East Riding can have the same chippy/independent attitude that Sheffield has (to being part of one big Yorkshire happy family!).

Whilst Yorkshire is varied, ScotRail manages to serve diverse areas/ markets without any *huge* accusations of favouritism (there will always be some moaning, but that's par for the course these days).

But if we are going to rip things up and have a super-PTE then I'd want some firm guarantees about the kind of service/ infrastructure/ rolling stock benefits it would bring (not just that it'd be a little cheaper than now to travel over the border from Harrogate/ Skipton into Leeds) - this kind of upheaval requires some kind of commitments to a better future beyond just extending the subsidised ticket prices outside the WY Metro area.

(there's also the problem of what TfN is going to be for, if we have a "Yorkshire" version - does that leave TfN just dealing with Manchester and surrounding places on t'other side of the hills?)

In the past you've suggested terminating the Hallam stopper at Castleford and have one of the fasts pick up passengers to Leeds. Why not extend it to York to provide a genuine "cross border" improvement, linking an important regional centre with some of the areas such as the five towns in need of regeneration.

 

[Bevan Price]

Its a good point, with such diverse levels of public transport the pressure would be to improve the service in the most densely populated areas, possibly at the expense of the more rural areas, at least this would be the perception at the very least. Another problem would be that Sheffield & it's surrounding region might not like being lumped in with West Yorkshire, especially as would very probably happen Leeds became the hub for the whole region as it is for West Yorks now. I could see a lot of arguments coming from South Yorkshire about that.

However lumping Harrogate, York & I would add Skipton to the Metro area would probably be far more palatable for those cities and towns, especially as commuting & leisure travel could be made a bit cheaper as Metro products become more widely available.

But would "Tory" areas such as Harrogate or Selby want to be ruled more or less permanently by mainly "Labour" West Yorkshire ?

 

[Bantamzen]

Yup - same with Hull (which is kind of Yorkshire but not really Yorkshire, depending on which way the wind is blowing). In railway operational terms you'd want Humberside as part of Yorkshire as the lines to Hull and Cleethorpes are integrated into other Yorkshire services but the lands south of the Humber area really "Lincolnshire" and the old East Riding can have the same chippy/independent attitude that Sheffield has (to being part of one big Yorkshire happy family!).

Whilst Yorkshire is varied, ScotRail manages to serve diverse areas/ markets without any *huge* accusations of favouritism (there will always be some moaning, but that's par for the course these days).

But if we are going to rip things up and have a super-PTE then I'd want some firm guarantees about the kind of service/ infrastructure/ rolling stock benefits it would bring (not just that it'd be a little cheaper than now to travel over the border from Harrogate/ Skipton into Leeds) - this kind of upheaval requires some kind of commitments to a better future beyond just extending the subsidised ticket prices outside the WY Metro area.

With regard to Skipton & Harrogate, they already have some limited access to Metro products through the Metrocards Zones 1-6 & 1-7, plus some Sunday Dales buses in those regions accept MCards. So it would not be a massive move to bring these areas into the Metro zone if some agreements could be made for their local authorities to join the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA), of which Metro is part. Spreading it further (and it would probably need rebranding at this point) would be more problematic as currently the rail zones are based around Leeds. I can't see Sheffield, Hull and maybe even York agreeing to keep that status quo. Which would be fair enough, as it would leave their areas on the very outskirts of a widened zone, and obviously for travel across it in the potentially most expensive.

What would be needed is a series of zones, centred around the big cities as with Leeds & Sheffield, with cross-zonal offerings available to those regular commuting between them. Could be complex, and could take a while to sort out detail wise, but if all authorities allowed their transport options to merge under one authority not impossible.

(there's also the problem of what TfN is going to be for, if we have a "Yorkshire" version - does that leave TfN just dealing with Manchester and surrounding places on t'other side of the hills?)

This would just be a further expansion on the multi-zonal issue above. But again, if all authorities could agree to hand over the transport facets to TfN, its not impossible but given the size of the area would be very, very complex.

But would "Tory" areas such as Harrogate or Selby want to be ruled more or less permanently by mainly "Labour" West Yorkshire ?

There would be no question of them being ruled by other areas. This is about have a strategy for the whole area. West Yorkshire has always had a mixture of political parties involved, yet this has not stopped initially Metro then Metro as part of the WYCA operating transport policy & budgets. and as far as ticketing goes, it has been reasonably successful, keeping at least season ticket prices to a reasonable level.

If any party in the current climate still wanted to resist such a move, they'd be more than welcome to explain to commuters in their areas why they don't like the idea of possible cheaper travel.

 

[Bevan Price]

With regard to Skipton & Harrogate, they already have some limited access to Metro products through the Metrocards Zones 1-6 & 1-7, plus some Sunday Dales buses in those regions accept MCards. So it would not be a massive move to bring these areas into the Metro zone if some agreements could be made for their local authorities to join the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA), of which Metro is part. Spreading it further (and it would probably need rebranding at this point) would be more problematic as currently the rail zones are based around Leeds. I can't see Sheffield, Hull and maybe even York agreeing to keep that status quo. Which would be fair enough, as it would leave their areas on the very outskirts of a widened zone, and obviously for travel across it in the potentially most expensive.

What would be needed is a series of zones, centred around the big cities as with Leeds & Sheffield, with cross-zonal offerings available to those regular commuting between them. Could be complex, and could take a while to sort out detail wise, but if all authorities allowed their transport options to merge under one authority not impossible.



This would just be a further expansion on the multi-zonal issue above. But again, if all authorities could agree to hand over the transport facets to TfN, its not impossible but given the size of the area would be very, very complex.



There would be no question of them being ruled by other areas. This is about have a strategy for the whole area. West Yorkshire has always had a mixture of political parties involved, yet this has not stopped initially Metro then Metro as part of the WYCA operating transport policy & budgets. and as far as ticketing goes, it has been reasonably successful, keeping at least season ticket prices to a reasonable level.

If any party in the current climate still wanted to resist such a move, they'd be more than welcome to explain to commuters in their areas why they don't like the idea of possible cheaper travel.

But you need to remember that a large proportion of residents rarely, if ever, use public transport. You would need to persuade them that paying higher council tax, etc., is a good idea, even for something that they never use.

 

[Bantamzen]

But you need to remember that a large proportion of residents rarely, if ever, use public transport. You would need to persuade them that paying higher council tax, etc., is a good idea, even for something that they never use.

They probably also don't use a lot of other services funded locally, all of which will have increasing demands on local authority funding. But adding their respective areas to a larger pot of funds will potentially bring indirect benefits such as better connectivity, resulting in less road congestion for example. Plus generally speaking better connectivity can help boost house prices, if that's the sort of thing that motivates them.

 

[tbtc]

As an aside, if we are talking about one body looking after transport in Yorkshire, the quality of bus services from South Yorkshire to West Yorkshire has been on a downward spiral for a long time - e.g. you used to have regular services on routes like Barnsley - Huddersfield, Penistone - Huddersfield (even Sheffield - Huddersfield was hourly), Doncaster - Pontefract, Barnsley - Castleford, plus the old X33 from Sheffield/ Meadowhall/ Barnsley to Wakefield/ Dewsbury/ Bradford without even touching on things like the hourly Sunday service Sheffield used to have to Holmfirth - these kind of services have dwindled in recent years - the X10 from Barnsley to Leeds is a partial replacement for the old X32 but cross border bus links have been ignored as operators retrench into their comfort zones - there's a lot of non-train improvements that could be made)

Some would argue that is all TfN are interested in now.

True - like the way that the "Manchester Hub" was rebranded as the "Northern Hub" to give the impression that it wasn't just about one city (thought that's where the vast vast majority of the monies were to be spent).

In the past you've suggested terminating the Hallam stopper at Castleford and have one of the fasts pick up passengers to Leeds. Why not extend it to York to provide a genuine "cross border" improvement, linking an important regional centre with some of the areas such as the five towns in need of regeneration.

I'd be all for that - a regular service from Barnsley/ Wakefield/ Castleford to York would be a good thing (esp if the XC service is chopped at Leeds, so there's still a service from Wakefield to York) - that also permits Pontefract to get a half hourly service on the Woodlesford corridor (and maybe then we don't have to waste so many resources on the Sheffield - Pontefract - York corridor).

With regard to Skipton & Harrogate, they already have some limited access to Metro products through the Metrocards Zones 1-6 & 1-7, plus some Sunday Dales buses in those regions accept MCards. So it would not be a massive move to bring these areas into the Metro zone if some agreements could be made for their local authorities to join the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA), of which Metro is part. Spreading it further (and it would probably need rebranding at this point) would be more problematic as currently the rail zones are based around Leeds. I can't see Sheffield, Hull and maybe even York agreeing to keep that status quo. Which would be fair enough, as it would leave their areas on the very outskirts of a widened zone, and obviously for travel across it in the potentially most expensive.

What would be needed is a series of zones, centred around the big cities as with Leeds & Sheffield, with cross-zonal offerings available to those regular commuting between them. Could be complex, and could take a while to sort out detail wise, but if all authorities allowed their transport options to merge under one authority not impossible.

This would just be a further expansion on the multi-zonal issue above. But again, if all authorities could agree to hand over the transport facets to TfN, its not impossible but given the size of the area would be very, very complex

I'm not arguing with what you are saying, it all sounds nice, but is the idea of expanding WY control over the rest of Yorkshire just about ticket prices or is it linked to devolved spending/ long term investment/ regional commitments to improvements etc?

Is this about having a Government body that will facilitate steps forward (new trains, better stations, maybe some additional stations/lines etc) or just a case of reducing ticket prices to the West Yorkshire levels?

 

[Bantamzen]

As an aside, if we are talking about one body looking after transport in Yorkshire, the quality of bus services from South Yorkshire to West Yorkshire has been on a downward spiral for a long time - e.g. you used to have regular services on routes like Barnsley - Huddersfield, Penistone - Huddersfield (even Sheffield - Huddersfield was hourly), Doncaster - Pontefract, Barnsley - Castleford, plus the old X33 from Sheffield/ Meadowhall/ Barnsley to Wakefield/ Dewsbury/ Bradford without even touching on things like the hourly Sunday service Sheffield used to have to Holmfirth - these kind of services have dwindled in recent years - the X10 from Barnsley to Leeds is a partial replacement for the old X32 but cross border bus links have been ignored as operators retrench into their comfort zones - there's a lot of non-train improvements that could be made)

I particularly remember the X33 well, I used it a lot & so did many other for some time. And you're right, the cross border services have been slowly eroded over time. Even when I lived in South Elmsall some 10-15 years ago it was noted locally that these were slowly getting worse, and looking at some of the service detail for the town now its got even poorer. This is where, you would hope, neighbouring PTEs and councils could work more closely to ensure that those who travel across their borders are given sufficient provision, and that they not just concentrate on services exclusively within their areas.

I'm not arguing with what you are saying, it all sounds nice, but is the idea of expanding WY control over the rest of Yorkshire just about ticket prices or is it linked to devolved spending/ long term investment/ regional commitments to improvements etc?

Is this about having a Government body that will facilitate steps forward (new trains, better stations, maybe some additional stations/lines etc) or just a case of reducing ticket prices to the West Yorkshire levels?

Ultimately it would be about better services & facilities across the entire area covered, that has to be a given. But expanding the full range of Metro products into the Skipton & Harrogate areas would be a quick & relatively easy sell / win.

 

[yorksrob]

Ultimately it would be about better services & facilities across the entire area covered, that has to be a given. But expanding the full range of Metro products into the Skipton & Harrogate areas would be a quick & relatively easy sell / win.

And York.

 

[Bantamzen]

And York.

Ideally yes, although I suspect that might be slightly more difficult as it would probably mean the remaining parts of North Yorkshire would want in too. Not that this would be a bad thing of course, it might even be a nudge to South Yorkshire's authorities.

 

[Deerfold]

I particularly remember the X33 well, I used it a lot & so did many other for some time. And you're right, the cross border services have been slowly eroded over time. Even when I lived in South Elmsall some 10-15 years ago it was noted locally that these were slowly getting worse, and looking at some of the service detail for the town now its got even poorer. This is where, you would hope, neighbouring PTEs and councils could work more closely to ensure that those who travel across their borders are given sufficient provision, and that they not just concentrate on services exclusively within their areas.

Ultimately it would be about better services & facilities across the entire area covered, that has to be a given. But expanding the full range of Metro products into the Skipton & Harrogate areas would be a quick & relatively easy sell / win.

Many the cross-border services into West Yorkshire seem to have been severely downgraded. As well as so many WY/SY links, The (Manchester)-Oldham-Halifax-(Leeds/Bradford) buses have gone, hours of operation of the X84 Skipton - Leeds North of Ilkley are much shorter (used to be ~0600-2300), Todmorden - Bacup seems to be hanging on by a thread, having briefly had only school journeys, the 517 Halifax - Burnley service has gone after more than 50 years. PTEs struggle to justify helping services which go over the county boundaries and bus companies seem less interested in them - and multi-operator tickets usually don't cross the border (Metro have been talking about developing cross-border tickets for at least 10 years but I've never seen anything other than the WY/SY Bus only MetroMaster which has got less and less useful as cross-border services disappear.

The X33 may have had its final death blow from National Express who enhanced services between Leeds, Meadowhall and Sheffield with short journeys to produce at least a half-hourly service. It was quicker than the X33, so took many of its passengers.