West Yorkshire bus fares

[Deerfold]

They did used to be a 921 nightrider service to Garforth via Cross gates which then ran on to Kippax and Swillington on thurs, fri and sat nights, last one left about 0220 I think but they were withdrawn due low useage.

I have no experience of the nightrider service to Garforth - I think it was a higher number as the 921 was one of 2 nightriders that went to Otley.

However the night buses in Halifax were withdrawn "due to low usage". The 0220 From Halifax to Todmorden used to be a full and standing double decker whenever I caught it (I fondly recall having to let people sit on my knee - when it was the right person ).

 

[YorkshireRider]

Yes, I grew up in Cross Gates and also remember the bus been packed out, but there was often trouble on them, to the point they started to get nicknamed the 'fightrider', maybe that started to put people off. I felt sure it was the 921 I caught but it was a while ago and it could well have been a higher number. At first just the Thursday night service was withdrawn but a couple of years later they all went.

 

[brompton rail]

Kirk Sandall to Doncaster is £1.40 Anytime Single, £2 Anytime Day Return and £1.70 Off Peak Day Return without a railcard. Still very good for 4 miles and 9 chains. That is good value even compared to cheap places in mainland Europe like Belgium, and is an example of how much cheaper PTE fares can be compared to non-PTE fares. Actually £2.50 for a 4 miles bus ride is cheaper than most places in England outside London and the West Midlands.

Woops, sorry. My quoted fares were with a Railcard!

 

[34D]

Yes, I grew up in Cross Gates and also remember the bus been packed out, but there was often trouble on them, to the point they started to get nicknamed the 'fightrider', maybe that started to put people off. I felt sure it was the 921 I caught but it was a while ago and it could well have been a higher number. At first just the Thursday night service was withdrawn but a couple of years later they all went.

It was the 921 to Garforth etc.

Otley was the 927 via Guiseley and the 928 via Bramhope.
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They can - West Yorkshire has the 1 day MetroDay and 2.25 day Weekender and Weekly, Monthly and Annual Bus-only Metrocards.

Manchester has similar tickets.

But these are PTE tickets.

What is being discussed is a ticket controlled by a group of operators.

The York Quality Bus Partnership (though that does include the council) has a £4.50 'all york' day ticket.

 

[transmanche]

Possibly. But if they can do multi-operator, multi-mode tickets (e.g. Network One in T&W) without it being a 'cartel'; then I don't see why they can't do multi-operator, single-mode tickets.

Is the Network One ticket organised by the PTE though?

An update to my earlier post.

According to this website, Network Ticketing Ltd is jointly owned (in various proportions) by Nexus, Go-Ahead, Stagecoach, Arriva, Northern Rail and A-Line coaches. As Nexus is the largest shareholder (almost 40%) does that count as being 'organised by the PTE'? If so, then there really is no reason why they can't they can't do bus-only tickets (as mentioned by Deerfold) like West Yorkshire and Manchester.

 

[Deerfold]

It was the 921 to Garforth etc.

Otley was the 927 via Guiseley and the 928 via Bramhope.

Apologies - I think I got the 921 and 927 mixed up. I had been planning on giving the 928 a go as one of the last two original Leeds Nightrider routes - though it would have only got me half way home.

But these are PTE tickets.

What is being discussed is a ticket controlled by a group of operators.

The York Quality Bus Partnership (though that does include the council) has a £4.50 'all york' day ticket.

The PTE are involved but don't have the final say...

http://www.wymetro.com/news/releases/archive/2012/friendbus/

The West Yorkshire Ticketing Company was established in April 2007 to administer and develop the extensive range of multi-operator, multi-modal MetroCard tickets

All West Yorkshire bus and train companies are members of the West Yorkshire Ticketing Company, whose activities are managed through a Board comprising senior representatives of the transport companies with the largest market share, and Metro.

 

[radamfi]

Similarly Greater Manchester Travelcards Limited, who administer the System One range of tickets for Greater Manchester, is jointly owned by the operators and TfGM.

http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/about/about-us

 

[AndyHudds]

Public transport in West Yorkshire at night is lousy, totally dire, in particular the buses. We now live in a 24/7 world but public transport lags behind in this change to modern life. I criticised Metro in the past but some on here are quick to jump to their defence.

They've allowed the bus network to be run into the ground and let First dominate the area, with poor quality buses (although that has improved in recent years, but still too many ALX400's), poor service, rude drivers and high fares and a service run to suit First rather than the passengers.

First seem to be running scared over the QC's trying everything to avoid them.

Don't get me started on the trains, the night time stopper services are grim and most finish around 11pm. In fact in Huddersfield, although not a night time service, we have no Sunday Wakefield to Huddersfield service at all!! Even the TPE services to big cities beyond Leeds and Manchester are poor late at night.

 

[Ivo]

Even the TPE services to big cities beyond Leeds and Manchester are poor late at night.

That service is intended to provide a good service to Manchester Airport, not between the individual cities. Leeds to wherever besides the Airport is very much low priority.

 

[AndyHudds]

That service is intended to provide a good service to Manchester Airport, not between the individual cities. Leeds to wherever besides the Airport is very much low priority.

Thats all well and good but that doesn't mean they have to a rubbish service to Newcastle,Middlesbrough and Liverpool on a night.

 

[yorksrob]

That service is intended to provide a good service to Manchester Airport, not between the individual cities. Leeds to wherever besides the Airport is very much low priority.

Which also begs the question why Doris and Derek on their one train journey a year to spend their British money in foreign economies, should get service provision over and above regular travellers who spend more on the railway in the first place and who are penalised for wanting to spend their hard earned cash of an evening within those very citiies which the railway is supposed to serve.

 

[radamfi]

Public transport in West Yorkshire at night is lousy, totally dire, in particular the buses. We now live in a 24/7 world but public transport lags behind in this change to modern life. I criticised Metro in the past but some on here are quick to jump to their defence.

They've allowed the bus network to be run into the ground and let First dominate the area, with poor quality buses (although that has improved in recent years, but still too many ALX400's), poor service, rude drivers and high fares and a service run to suit First rather than the passengers.

First seem to be running scared over the QC's trying everything to avoid them.

Don't get me started on the trains, the night time stopper services are grim and most finish around 11pm. In fact in Huddersfield, although not a night time service, we have no Sunday Wakefield to Huddersfield service at all!! Even the TPE services to big cities beyond Leeds and Manchester are poor late at night.

It is a bit unfair to criticise Metro given that the control of buses was largely taken away from them in 1986. The amount of money available for subsidised services has increasingly become scarce while the operators cut more and more commercial routes so inevitably night services will be vulnerable to withdrawal to avoid even greater cuts to socially necessary services. Metro are the closest of any PTE to creating a QC, although I still think they will eventually give up and accept a partnership deal.

Overnight middle distance inter-city rail services are pretty rare in most countries. You still have long distance sleeper services throughout Europe, although they are becoming marginalised as the widening network of high-speed trains make them less popular. Overnight local train services may also exist at weekends in places like Zurich.

The only middle distance overnight inter-city rail service that runs 7 days a week that I can think of is the Utrecht - Amsterdam - Schiphol - Rotterdam night service.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, although I am happy to defend Metro (and Northern rail) on a lot of things later evening transport is not one of them. comparisons with longer or intermediate services elsewhere are less relevant than comparisons with local evening services.

 

[tbtc]

Public transport in West Yorkshire at night is lousy, totally dire, in particular the buses. We now live in a 24/7 world but public transport lags behind in this change to modern life

There are very few commercial services after midnight in the UK. Take away London and Edinburgh and there's not many "night" services full stop - despite many routes in the UK running every five/ten minutes during the daytime.

Not unique to West Yorkshire. It's just that this thread suggests that some in West Yorkshire have much higher expectations of what their taxes ought to be subsidising.

I criticised Metro in the past but some on here are quick to jump to their defence.

They've allowed the bus network to be run into the ground and let First dominate the area

First/Badgerline bought Yorkshire Rider around twenty years ago. Yorkshire Rider dominated Leeds/ Bradford/ Huddersfield/ Halifax. What has changed? And why is this the PTE's fault? Are Metro to blame for the demise of Black Prince and other independents?

 

[yorksrob]

First/Badgerline bought Yorkshire Rider around twenty years ago. Yorkshire Rider dominated Leeds/ Bradford/ Huddersfield/ Halifax. What has changed? And why is this the PTE's fault? Are Metro to blame for the demise of Black Prince and other independents?

No. The Tory party and its fetishisation of "free market" i.e big business interests is clearly to blame.

 

[AndyHudds]

Where as I understand that control was taken away from Metro with deregulation, they are still the PTE and should have been working with the bus companies years ago to halt the decline. They are trying to turn it round now with the QC programme, its probably 20 years too late!!! So yes tbtc, Metro are in my eyes guilty of letting the bigger companies get away with murder and they should have tried to intervene years ago. As for Yorkshire Riders dominance, yes they did dominate but at least they provided a reasonable night time service. As I've said in the past the last 372 to Almondbury is at 9pm, now this is one of First's flagship/high frequency routes in the Huddersfield, way to early, the last one used to be 11pm. HBC now pick up after 9pm to Almondbury. The West Yorkshire Urban Areas has a population 1.7 million, so I don't think its too much to ask to have a decent night nightime public transport network.

Is it too much to ask for the stoppers to continue until 12/12.30ish? I wasn't calling for all night services, just an improvement on later trains.

As for TPE,the last direct train from Huddersfield to Newcastle for example is at 22.16, so it must leave Manchester at 21.45 ish, surely there should be later ones? And the last one back to Huddersfield is 21.56!!!

 

[transmanche]

Where as I understand that control was taken away from Metro with deregulation, they are still the PTE and should have been working with the bus companies years ago to halt the decline. They are trying to turn it round now with the QC programme, its probably 20 years too late!!! So yes tbtc, Metro are in my eyes guilty of letting the bigger companies get away with murder and they should have tried to intervene years ago.

I'm not sure what they could have done 20 years ago - as 20 years ago I don't believe transport authorities were permitted to set up the kind of Quality Partnership/Quality Contract schemes we're seeing promoted today. I think it's only since the Local Transport Act 2008 came into force that such things have been possible.

 

[radamfi]

Where as I understand that control was taken away from Metro with deregulation, they are still the PTE and should have been working with the bus companies years ago to halt the decline. They are trying to turn it round now with the QC programme, its probably 20 years too late!!!

Sorry, but QC only came into law under Transport Act 2000. Until then, Metro were effectively powerless. However, even then the rules for QC were so strict that they were basically impossible to implement, as it had to be proven that a QC was the only way of improving bus services. QCs only became a realistic option once Local Transport Act 2008 relaxed these rules.

 

[AndyHudds]

Irrespective of legislation and QC's could Metro not have entered into discussion to halt the decline of bus patronage and service levels well before? and I never said it had to be QC, just get round the table and use some common sense and do whats right for the fare paying public. Like I said they are the PTE, if they have no power or say, what is the purpose of the PTE?

People like to make excuses for Metro when they need to up their game. They need to be more proactive, granted the QC's are proactive but as I said its far too late.

 

[transmanche]

Irrespective of legislation and QC's could Metro not have entered into discussion to halt the decline of bus patronage and service levels well before? and I never said it had to be QC, just get round the table and use some common sense and do whats right for the fare paying public. Like I said they are the PTE, if they have no power or say, what is the purpose of the PTE?

Well they had no power to tell bus companies what services to operate, what frequencies to operate, what fares to charge, what type of buses to use, etc. That Thatcher government believed that the private sector and the free market was better placed to decide. And no subsequent government had the balls to really change the situation - until the Local Transport Act 2008 was passed.

What they did have was the power to subsidise socially necessary services that would not be operated commercially, to co-ordinate multi-operator tickets, operate bus stations, provide timetables and similar tasks - plus their involvement in rail services and promotion of new schemes (e.g. trams and trolleybuses).

 

[radamfi]

I can just imagine Metro writing to Yorkshire Rider, Yorkshire Traction and West Riding in 1993 saying, "Can we have a meeting to discuss why patronage has fallen and what the way forward is?". The letters would have been met with hysterical laughter before they got filed in the waste paper basket. Even Statutory Partnerships didn't exist back then. The only thing possible was a voluntary agreement to have new buses etc. in return for infrastructure improvements such as bus lanes. Maybe the guided bus lanes were built with such an agreement - I can't remember.

 

[AndyHudds]

I can just imagine Metro writing to Yorkshire Rider, Yorkshire Traction and West Riding in 1993 saying, "Can we have a meeting to discuss why patronage has fallen and what the way forward is?". The letters would have been met with hysterical laughter before they got filed in the waste paper basket. Even Statutory Partnerships didn't exist back then. The only thing possible was a voluntary agreement to have new buses etc. in return for infrastructure improvements such as bus lanes. Maybe the guided bus lanes were built with such an agreement - I can't remember.

And that is why the bus network in West Yorkshire is in the state it is, because no one has ever used any common sense. Why does common sense not apply to the public transport in network?

 

[northwichcat]

There are very few commercial services after midnight in the UK. Take away London and Edinburgh and there's not many "night" services full stop - despite many routes in the UK running every five/ten minutes during the daytime.

According to an email I got from Stagecoach the night buses in the Manchester area are fully commercial with no subsidy.

 

[radamfi]

And that is why the bus network in West Yorkshire is in the state it is, because no one has ever used any common sense. Why does common sense not apply to the public transport in network?

This is Britain we are talking about. Common sense is irrelevant. If you want better PT, then the only option is to leave West Yorkshire. It is unlikely ever to be as good as you want it to be. I doubt even QCs would make much difference because of the lack of funding. Obviously Brighton, Oxford, Edinburgh, Nottingham and London are always cited as the best in the UK, but Freedom of Movement is available to the rest of the EU/EEA.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to an email I got from Stagecoach the night buses in the Manchester area are fully commercial with no subsidy.

Maybe all the Stagecoach ones are commercial, indeed there used to be cut throat competition on the Wilmslow Road night routes, but at least one night route is tendered:

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/RouteMaps/8.pdf

says the Saturday morning journeys on the 8 are subsidised, although Sunday mornings are commercial. TfGM leaflets state where buses are subsidised, unlike Metro ones.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

No. The Tory party and its fetishisation of "free market" i.e big business interests is clearly to blame.

sorry have i landed on sheffield forum instead of rail UK ?

to say First dominate the bus market in W yorks is a little disengenous - few if any First services in Wakefield and 'North Kirklees' - that's firmly arriva territory plus there are several Centrebus and Transdev operations and a fair sprinkling of independents arounds

 

[yorksrob]

sorry have i landed on sheffield forum instead of rail UK ?

I've never heard of the Sheffield forum before, but from what you're implying, I like the cut of its jib.

 

[radamfi]

It can't be denied that First have a dominant position in most of the areas of West Yorkshire that they operate in, especially in Leeds and Bradford. Obviously they aren't dominant in Wakefield, Dewsbury or Keighley! Other operators generally stick to minor or tendered routes.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The Manchester Stagecoach buses are commercial eg Finglands and Stagecoach but the First and JPT are supported afaik as are the stagecoach wigan ones.

 

[radamfi]

Not all First's night buses in Greater Manchester are tendered. The 17 and 135 are commercial. JPT have competed against both of these recently. But I thought they had stopped running night buses now. I also think Finglands no longer operate night buses.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I've never heard of the Sheffield forum before, but from what you're implying, I like the cut of its jib.

basically there are some sad sacks on there who want a return to the 2p flat fare days ...