West Midlands Trains - Fleet Changes

[jhy44]

Hello all,

Apologies if this is already contained in a Thread but I couldn't find such a one, nor can I find details online, so thought I'd ask directly.

Currently, WMT has:
27 x Class 172 (D) (New Turbos)
23 x Class 170 (D) (Old Turbos)
8 x Class 153 (D) (Sprinters)
3 x Class 150 (D) (Sprinters)
2 x Class 139 (D) (Parrys)
7 x Class 319 (E)
26 x Class 323 (E)
76 x Class 350 (E) (Desiros)
TOTAL: 172

Future:
3 x Class 230 (E) in Dec 2018
8 x Class 172 (D) (New Turbos) - Coming from LO in Dec 2018
10 x Class 350 (E) - Coming from Transpennine in Dec 2019
45 x EMUs (for Long Distance)
36 x EMUs (for Cross City)
26 x DMUs (for Hford/Shrew/Stratford)
TOTAL: 128

My Question - which of the old fleet is definitely, or likely to be, leaving WMT once the new trains arrive?

Presumably the 323s are all going as the new EMUs are earmarked for the XC Line, but the sheer number of new stock coming in must mean things are leaving, perhaps the current 23 Class 170s?

Thanks!

 

[superalbs]

150s and 153s are meant to be, and I am pretty sure the 170s are too.

 

[sprinterguy]

DMU
3 x 2-car 150 off lease by 12/2020.
7 x 1-car 153 off lease by 12/2020.
17 x 2-car and 6 x 3-car 170 off lease by 12/2020.

EMU
26 x 3-car 323 off lease by 06/2022.
37 x 4-car 350/2 off lease by 06/2021.

8 class 172/0 units from London Overground will enter service in the West Midlands area, and 3 class 230 units are expected to enter service on the Bedford - Bletchley line, in December 2018. As noted there's also the 10 class 350/4s arriving from TPE a year later.

The 150s, 153s and 170s will be replaced, perhaps indirectly, by 12 x 2-car and 14 x 4-car CAF Civity DMUs, which will be in service by December 2020. Expected to displace the 172s from the Snow Hill lines to allow them to replace the other 'legacy' diesel fleets, although there's been some rumour, as annotated in the opening post, of the new DMUs alternatively being deployed on the Hereford and Shrewsbury routes.

36 x 3-car Bombardier Aventra EMUs, with a 145km/h top speed, will enter service by June 2021 to cover Birmingham Cross-City and West Midlands local electric services, replacing the 323s.

45 x 5-car Bombardier Aventra EMUs, with a 177km/h top speed, will enter service by June 2021 to replace the 350/2s and, presumably, the 319s. Of this fleet, 29 units will have an outer suburban internal configuration, while 16 units will be set out for longer distance work.

 

[59CosG95]

Yep, the 170/5s and the 170/6s are leaving the franchise; CrossCountry seem the most likely ones to take them. (They really do need the capacity, not sure if you've seen how loaded a 2-car peak Notts-Cardiff train can get by University - it's horrible!)

 

[sprinterguy]

Yep, the 170/5s and the 170/6s are leaving the franchise; CrossCountry seem the most likely ones to take them. (They really do need the capacity, not sure if you've seen how loaded a 2-car peak Notts-Cardiff train can get by University - it's horrible!)

Probably not all of them, but you'd certainly hope that the next Crosscountry franchise will take some of them - Or the ones that will be available from the Greater Anglia franchise. Fortunately for the Nottingham, Leicester & Stansted matrix of services, there's no shortage of 170s available at the start of the next decade - It's just a pity that they're not available now!

 

[LowLevel]

Equally as likely for the 170s to reappear in the East Midlands I'd say - especially with the DfT looking closely at merging most of the 170 operated XC routes into the EM franchise.

 

[jhy44]

Yep, the 170/5s and the 170/6s are leaving the franchise; CrossCountry seem the most likely ones to take them. (They really do need the capacity, not sure if you've seen how loaded a 2-car peak Notts-Cardiff train can get by University - it's horrible!)

Thanks!

As someone who commutes Birmingham - Nottingham daily, I am indeed only too familiar how crowded the 2-cars units get, especially the 16:10 out of Nottingham, like a sardine can out of Nottingham until Burton, and then the crowds that get on at Birmingham too, the quicker this becomes a 4-car the better.

 

[DarloRich]

Hello all,

Apologies if this is already contained in a Thread but I couldn't find such a one, nor can I find details online, so thought I'd ask directly.

Currently, WMT has:
27 x Class 172 (D) (New Turbos)
23 x Class 170 (D) (Old Turbos)
8 x Class 153 (D) (Sprinters)
3 x Class 150 (D) (Sprinters)
2 x Class 139 (D) (Parrys)
7 x Class 319 (E)
26 x Class 323 (E)
76 x Class 350 (E) (Desiros)
TOTAL: 172

Future:
3 x Class 230 (E) in Dec 2018
8 x Class 172 (D) (New Turbos) - Coming from LO in Dec 2018
10 x Class 350 (E) - Coming from Transpennine in Dec 2019
45 x EMUs (for Long Distance)
36 x EMUs (for Cross City)
26 x DMUs (for Hford/Shrew/Stratford)
TOTAL: 128

My Question - which of the old fleet is definitely, or likely to be, leaving WMT once the new trains arrive?

Presumably the 323s are all going as the new EMUs are earmarked for the XC Line, but the sheer number of new stock coming in must mean things are leaving, perhaps the current 23 Class 170s?

Thanks!

Looks like i am walking to work as none of those units will serve the Marston Vale line..................................

 

[jhy44]

Equally as likely for the 170s to reappear in the East Midlands I'd say - especially with the DfT looking closely at merging most of the 170 operated XC routes into the EM franchise.

Really? Even the Cardiff-Notts?
I do think it odd how XC run the Bham - Leicester and Bham - Notts locals,
I think I'd give those to the WM franchise, double the frequency to half-hourly, and then remove the stops on the hourly XC Cardiff & Stansteds to give a proper hourly 'express' to Nottingham and Leicester.

 

[sprinterguy]

Looks like i am walking to work as none of those units will serve the Marston Vale line..................................

Umm, the 230s are definitely in that list.

 

[DarloRich]

Umm, the 230s are definitely in that list.

Where.................. oh, there in the first line

 

[sprinterguy]

I do think it odd how XC run the Bham - Leicester and Bham - Notts locals,
I think I'd give those to the WM franchise, double the frequency to half-hourly, and then remove the stops on the hourly XC Cardiff & Stansteds to give a proper hourly 'express' to Nottingham and Leicester.

Is there the capacity at New Street to add an extra 2tph into the schedules, including turnarounds? Seems to me that it's already bursting at the seams. More likely if we ever get those new chords into Moor Street, though.

Where.................. oh, there in the first line

That's the one.

 

[mic505]

What about Northern acquiring the 170's? They need 18 x 2-car equivalent by December 2022.

 

[59CosG95]

What about Northern acquiring the 170's? They need 18 x 2-car equivalent by December 2022.

16 3-car 170/4s are mooted to arrive from ScotRail very soon, displaced by 385s.

The Class 170/4s reported on the "Northern Unit Refurbishments" thread to make their way south are:
170453-461, 170472-478. It's worth noting that 453-457 have been retrofitted with First Class (according to my P5 Locos/Stock/Units combined volume); 170450-452 and 170470/170471 will stay in Scotland.

 

[mic505]

Personally I would transfer Bham - Leicester and Bham - Notts routes to the East Midlands Franchise from 2019/20.

 

[mic505]

16 3-car 170/4's are already accounted for Northern, to eliminate their Pacers by 2020. The 170 2-car equivalent (36 vehicles) is for passenger growth post 2020.

 

[59CosG95]

Personally I would transfer Bham - Leicester and Bham - Notts routes to the East Midlands Franchise from 2019/20.

Agreed, take the B'ham-Notts (slower) route over to the East Mids franchise; I'd keep the Cardiff-Bham-Notts one with XC and transfer the B'ham-Leics slow service to the West Mids myself (for crewing and stabling purposes). Leicester doesn't have the bonus of Tyseley (or a similar DMU depot) being relatively close to it; Notts Eastcroft and Derby Etches Park are the nearest two. Tyseley also have the knowledge base of 170 maintenance, so it may seem easier to have them and the new CAF units for WMT stabled there and keep the East Mids stabling at DY & NM, as per the status quo.

16 3-car 170/4's are already accounted for Northern, to eliminate their Pacers by 2020. The 170 2-car equivalent (36 vehicles) is for passenger growth post 2020.

Indeed they are; AFAIK they're to be used on the Harrogate line. The specific units pencilled in thus far are in my post above.

 

[geoffk]

EMU
26 x 3-car 323 off lease by 06/2022.
37 x 4-car 350/2 off lease by 06/2021.

I wonder who will get the 323s, and will Northern's still be going to West Midlands? A 319 struggles to keep time on the Manchester Picc - Airport stopper. It's probably been said already on this site that there is a danger of relatively modern emus looking for work as the TOCs don't want small fleets of 30 or so.

 

[Domh245]

I wonder who will get the 323s

A scrap merchant is a likely bet

will Northern's still be going to West Midlands?

Very unlikely

 

[js1000]

I wonder who will get the 323s, and will Northern's still be going to West Midlands? A 319 struggles to keep time on the Manchester Picc - Airport stopper. It's probably been said already on this site that there is a danger of relatively modern emus looking for work as the TOCs don't want small fleets of 30 or so.

As you say, the 319s are poor. The 323s are far superior (acceleration, carriage space, general appearance etc.) and could last another 20 years with refurbishment - same can't be said about the 319s. I would imagine Northern are keen to explore the idea of scrapping the 319s, or converting many of them to hybrids and taking the remaining 323s for electrified suburban routes.

 

[D365]

Wouldn't an appraisal of the power electronics be necessary? I can imagine them needing some work sometime soon, and they're not exactly modern, technologically...

 

[brel york]

150 getting prm Work before 2020 and they are not going back to lm

 

[tomuk]

Wouldn't an appraisal of the power electronics be necessary? I can imagine them needing some work sometime soon, and they're not exactly modern, technologically...

Alstom have recently replaced the original traction packs with new IGBT components. To retain the existing approvals Alstom had to make the replacement IGBT components 'impersonate' the old HOLEC GTOs so the 323s still sound the same.

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp... - Case study - English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

 

[whhistle]

Expected to displace the 172s from the Snow Hill lines

Do these trains get up to any sort of worthwhile speed?
Admittedly I only went from Moor Street to the Jewelry Quarter so it wasn't over about 30/40mph I'd say.
I would have thought some sort of re-gearing so they get to a higher speed quicker would be better? Or a low top speed of 60mph but it gets there pretty quick off the mark like LUL stock.

 

[LowLevel]

Agreed, take the B'ham-Notts (slower) route over to the East Mids franchise; I'd keep the Cardiff-Bham-Notts one with XC and transfer the B'ham-Leics slow service to the West Mids myself (for crewing and stabling purposes). Leicester doesn't have the bonus of Tyseley (or a similar DMU depot) being relatively close to it; Notts Eastcroft and Derby Etches Park are the nearest two. Tyseley also have the knowledge base of 170 maintenance, so it may seem easier to have them and the new CAF units for WMT stabled there and keep the East Mids stabling at DY & NM, as per the status quo.


Indeed they are; AFAIK they're to be used on the Harrogate line. The specific units pencilled in thus far are in my post above.

Leicester already has a number of class 170 units stable overnight, there's a London Midland fitter outstationed there to keep an eye on them.

Wouldn't really matter either way which way round for maintenance as they'd no doubt eventually become part of a common user fleet.

 

[Class 170101]

Surprised an LM fitter is based at Leicester? Surely it would be an XC fitter?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I believe XC sub-contract them.

 

[43096]

Surprised an LM fitter is based at Leicester? Surely it would be an XC fitter?

LM maintain the 170s for XC - they are based at Tyseley - so it is logical.

 

[the sniper]

LM maintain the 170s for XC - they are based at Tyseley - so it is logical.

Logical, but in a greater sense, illogical.

 

[jopsuk]

Or the ones that will be available from the Greater Anglia franchise.

Hopefully whichever depot gets those can get better reliability out of them than Crown Point does!