TheEastCoaster
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It would be great to see the B8 Wright Eclipse 3’s painted in LCB colours! they are good Buses, make journeys like the 106/X7 a breeze to sit through
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West Lothian buses
- Thread starter overthewater
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It would be great to see the B8 Wright Eclipse 3’s painted in LCB colours! they are good Buses, make journeys like the 106/X7 a breeze to sit through
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ScotRail158725
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im really not a fan of these buses. i enjoyed them at first but they have grew off me. exterior is looking quite bad now aswell so a repaint could be good for them
Driver362
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- 12 Aug 2018
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No just fed up trying. Swimming against the tide! Will keep a watching brief from now on! I can defenend all day long my friend as I know what's happening rather than educated guess work. But you guys know best eh?
overthewater
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We keep on highlight issues: Like the Ex1 or the cuts to 281? Lothian still not making a proper dent on key peak route with First still needing deckers, Why Lothian has mist the boat on the x38 making it harder to catch up? When the people of Winchburgh get wind of weekly or monthly tickets not being fully comprehensive as first? You may know what is happening, it's been over a year now and First are still around. I thought the people of West Lothian would welcome you with open arms and first would have no passengers whatsoever, that went south pretty quick.
You can defend indefensible, LCB policy on weekly and monthly is disgrace and the company should be ashamed of itself. First at least give passenger a proper choice, Yes its stirling ticket is tad high but at least its a proper ticket.
You can defend indefensible, LCB policy on weekly and monthly is disgrace and the company should be ashamed of itself. First at least give passenger a proper choice, Yes its stirling ticket is tad high but at least its a proper ticket.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
I have to agree, i was never a fan of the exterior on them, when i first saw them i couldn't help but notice the fact they looked very similar to that Grumpy Slug in the kids animated film Monsters inc!
Jordan Adam
Established Member
It is interesting, when all this was first announced in 2018 everyone thought Lothian would wipe the floor and all passengers would switch to LCB because it's part of the "Lothian Family", quite evidently that's not been the case. Other than a stable repaint program First haven't had to do or change much. I suspect these next changes may see them take more action, but time will tell. Perhaps extending the 22 as a X22 via the same route as the X23 in to Edinburgh offering a 10 minute frequency. I do think First's biggest advantage has been that they had a decent network from the get go, however it's also been their biggest downfall as they should've realistically done more by now, especially when it comes to a Edinburgh - Livingston - Blackburn - Whitburn service.
overthewater
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How hard is it to win a bus war against a company like that? no money, wants to sell, its pensions are to pot, The public despise First: there is alot of hatred and yet a good whack have still stuck with First Why?
Literally the ticket scenario. If Lothian start a solid set of tickets on that area people will switch. Some might stick with First out of habit but not many. I admit I don't know too much about West Lothian buses at all having only been to Armadale, Bathgate and Livingston a couple of times in car journeys but it doesn't take someone in the know to realise how poor the ticket issue really is
Dont stop posting. Nice to get facts rather than speculation most of which is negative and repetitive.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
The routes are also not the best either, almost everything wastes time giving a tour of Craigshill/Howden. The X17 is slower than getting the 26 and changing on to the X23 at Livingston, the X27/X28 pointlessly go to Bathgate. And most routes are inconsistently timed. For example the X17/281 offer a 10/20 minute frequency, when logically it should be a 15 minute frequency, same goes for the X17/X18. The whole EX1/X18 situtation requires no further comment as it was doomed from the start, as i say time and time again the X18 has been their best move, however if Armadale/Bathgate residents are still using the 25 all the way to Edinburgh (which appears the case) it does leave some questions.
First fall in this boat too however as the X23 extension to Broxburn is rather pointless and would've been better operating as an extension to the 21 or 22. they only done it to stop Craigshill residents complaining after the 21/22 were replaced by the 24/25 to Edinburgh. The 600 is a waste of time/money and would've been better off with Streetlites, especially given the deckers are needed on the 25, on that note First should've know better and launched a half hourly X25 before Lothians X18 came along. Branding those E400MMCs for the 23 was also a waste of money.
Lothians biggest downfall has been poor routes are fares, Firsts biggest downfall has been poor investment (Branding deckers for the 23/600) along with a lack of "drive". All the money pumped in to the 600 would've been better spent on the 24/25.
Journeyman
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Well, as a badly-wronged former employee of First, I loathe them with a passion, and when the X38 starts, I'll be happy to switch to LCB, even if it costs more.
Yeah I've had a look at some of the timetables on a couple of occasions for the buses provided by both First and Lothian and the routes and timings never made too much sense and considering I'm used to Glasgow buses that have some questionable routes that's pretty bad. I can understand the spending on building up an airport service in the 600 but there was definitely a waste of resources on that
SpeedbirdA350
Member
LCB should offer the 5/20 day ticket for those who do not travel on bus at weekend BUT also have the option of a 7/14/28 day ticket too. However, I still can't work out why they don't have a ridacard system set up yet for it. It's not like it woudl be hard to impliment their own but did someone not say before that Lothian are changing their ridacard system?
SpeedbirdA350
Member
And what about others who enjoy your insight to what is going on? Just like with others who work in the company, insight to what is going on is good, and is helpful to the chat.
SpeedbirdA350
Member
I would love to ask for more details on that but I don't want to open a can of worms. Hopefully the cost won't be higher, or much higher though as most people will talk with their wallet.
Anything will be better than those dire StreetLites First bought for the 38. At least they will have to be on their way out sooner than later now.
Likely down to cost and the need for physical infrastructure/agreements with PayPoint - perhaps they might be more inclined to launch one if they set-up the ability to do it online. Needing to go to Waverley Bridge to get your season ticket might not be so popular for people living in Fauldhouse!
Frankly just moving their m-ticket bundles from 5-7 and 20-28 like ECB do would be better and more useful than First, especially for students and part-time workers. Don't need to travel on a certain day? You can save up your tickets for later rather than paying for a day you didn't use.
I look forward to confirmation that the X62 changed when the railway opened (I know it was 20 mins for a while, I guess targetting the Edinburgh-Penicuik business). Likewise I know the 26 was once every 20 mins on both branches with a short journey in between then went to 15 mins on both branches with nothing in between, but, I believe, well before First abandoned East Lothian.
(Not sure what the Borders Railway has to do with West Lothian anyway.)
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Think it's people drawing inaccurate parallels with First in the Borders and in West Lothian.
That's the two competitive strategies. Lothian feel they can win and can do so by undermining First so that they eventually capitulate without resorting to a fares strategy that will prove difficult and contentious to unpick once they win. Of course, is it unduly hampering their ability to win...?
Likewise, First have responded by looking to batten down the hatches, retain some modern fleet (granted, they're Streetlites) and some older fleet in order to minimise costs whilst selectively modifying their network.
Now there are many observers on this thread displaying their particular allegiances and also saying "what I'd do is....." but in truth, these are business decisions and who has the correct strategy will only be defined by time.
overthewater
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Of course First did the Smartest thing of all and went to city to nick the tourist passengers.
I'm not going to be hypocrite on this forum. I complained what First was doing in the area for years, so I'm not going to let LCB get off Scot-free for doing stupid things just because there supposed to be our savior. If LCB strategy was so great why haven't their win this bus war already, against a company who own reputation is despised. Clearly there is a problem with LCB strategy
Negative IE the truth?
Repetitive? All I see are Issues being raised and then swept under the carpet, and it this also goes for first. No29 withdrawn, who cares. It supposed to be getting sorted next week so a replacement is coming for the Westfield area. The only person to put up a proper discussion was MB88, and we went back and forth over a number of points. A forum is here to see all ideas and view, and then get them challenged.
I will not let some so called savior have a free reign which what its doing is half A**** It's So disappointing..
I'm not going to be hypocrite on this forum. I complained what First was doing in the area for years, so I'm not going to let LCB get off Scot-free for doing stupid things just because there supposed to be our savior. If LCB strategy was so great why haven't their win this bus war already, against a company who own reputation is despised. Clearly there is a problem with LCB strategy
Negative IE the truth?
Repetitive? All I see are Issues being raised and then swept under the carpet, and it this also goes for first. No29 withdrawn, who cares. It supposed to be getting sorted next week so a replacement is coming for the Westfield area. The only person to put up a proper discussion was MB88, and we went back and forth over a number of points. A forum is here to see all ideas and view, and then get them challenged.
I will not let some so called savior have a free reign which what its doing is half A**** It's So disappointing..
At the end of the day First aren’t perfect, Lothian aren’t perfect. And I find it difficult to grasp why anyone would say any different. Blind loyalty to one company or another seems very odd to me, even when you work for one or the other, as I do. What is clear to us all I’m sure is that the current level of service provision in West Lothian is unsustainable - something has to give. There simply isn’t enough passengers to go round. A recurring theme here has been LCBs lack of a weekly ticket. Whilst I can understand the frustration on that point, I get people on my bus almost daily saying how much cheaper our single fares are to First’s. Over £1 cheaper for a journey from Livingston to Addiewell or Broxburn. I also hear people often saying how they prefer our services as they find the drivers friendlier and the buses nicer to travel on. This can’t simply be poo-poo’d away. Clearly we are doing something right. But of course there is room for improvement. It would be nice however if this thread could remain civil, as I said previously the constant sniping based on some bizarre sense of loyalty is tedious beyond belief.
overthewater
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Round of applause for MB88
It’s unrealistic in the extreme to expect First to close down and push off after a few months of competition, they’ve been established in the area and got a lot invested in the operation.
Could take a few years of mounting losses before head office says “right, that’s it” and the plug gets pulled.
for what it’s worth my money is on a further round of death by a thousand cuts, like what seems to be happening in Oldham at the moment. They’ll get bored with the Edinburgh tours and at best flog it off to someone else who’ll squeeze a couple more seasons out of it then struggle to invest in replacement buses (or it’ll be an eventual Lothian buy-out).
Could take a few years of mounting losses before head office says “right, that’s it” and the plug gets pulled.
for what it’s worth my money is on a further round of death by a thousand cuts, like what seems to be happening in Oldham at the moment. They’ll get bored with the Edinburgh tours and at best flog it off to someone else who’ll squeeze a couple more seasons out of it then struggle to invest in replacement buses (or it’ll be an eventual Lothian buy-out).
Frankly I don't see Lothian giving up in WL, they need to diversify their operations. With the workplace parking levy passed last night it won't be too long until there's money for a southern tram line and perhaps the Granton/Craigleith line. With the Newhaven line that's about to start being built that'll be two currently major Lothian corridors that will have a fast and frequent tram service.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Very rarely does an incumbent operation get dislodged after a year. North Devon is often mentioned but the Stagecoach expansion there started in 2006 and First didn't leave town until 2012. For First, the exit liabilities are substantial let alone the signal it would send out. Both firms will be battling it out during 2020 unless the First Bus divestment changes things.
The issues about things like Ridacards have been mentioned many, many times. It isn't that the opinion isn't valid or correct and yes, it's great to air them and get them challenged. Any opinion can, no matter how well argued or well observed and factually correct, lose its lustre and its power if repeated ad nauseum.
Indeed, and although Lothian did eventually dislodge First in Midlothian and East Lothian, these were the end results of battles which had started back in 1986 under Charles Evans' stewardship, and subsequently ramped up by subsequent management. Remember that it wasn't until 2000-2001 when the first of the "traditional" SMT corridors, the Edinburgh-Penicuik run, fell to Lothian.
For myself as a current First bus user, it'll come down to do cost firstly as to whether I jump to LCB on the new X38 or stick to the current First 38.
Then following that, it'll be down to the service I get, and any extras that may be worth it to me.
I pay £21.50 a week on an LM weekly ticket mainly for commuting to work, and since I do split shifts (Morning then evening any 5 days a week) it's cost-effective vs a £4 return from Winchburgh when I can use a bus 4 times a day (I come home for lunch/rest usually then go back out)
It also helps that I can use said ticket to then travel places on my days off whether it be out of need or just for leisure.
I have had some issues with First bus over the last few years but little interaction with LCB so TBH I'm not a fan of either and it'll come down to the points above as to who I'll use.
Then following that, it'll be down to the service I get, and any extras that may be worth it to me.
I pay £21.50 a week on an LM weekly ticket mainly for commuting to work, and since I do split shifts (Morning then evening any 5 days a week) it's cost-effective vs a £4 return from Winchburgh when I can use a bus 4 times a day (I come home for lunch/rest usually then go back out)
It also helps that I can use said ticket to then travel places on my days off whether it be out of need or just for leisure.
I have had some issues with First bus over the last few years but little interaction with LCB so TBH I'm not a fan of either and it'll come down to the points above as to who I'll use.
I think Lothian are basically waiting on First to drop off but it'll take quite a while given the issues with the pensions etc not to mention a sale then happening. If anything the longer Lothian leave it to step up and dominate it might hurt them a lot more. Could genuinely still be having this conversation for at least 18 months/2 years if things take longer to sort than First initially planned
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