West Lothian buses

[In Focus]

Not just a change of uniform. Change of working conditions. A change of environment, a change of resources, a change of management, a change of routes, a change of engineering.

Totally different.

Are working conditions really that much better?
Environment into a depot that was lying empty for months and difference of a few hundred yards?
Change of resources Van's to change over bus arrives ,drive bus ,not any real change.
Management are you telling me there are no disciplinary procedures at one company ?
Routes , one 27 / 28 is much like another and one village is same no matter the route number.
Engineering, strange that as First in Livingston have not had an MOT failure in years ,and no driver is asked to drive a faulty vehicle.
So nope I dont buy into these reasons ,maybe just public perception and propaganda through social media but whatever it is if it works for you and your mindset then that's a choice for each individual to make .
I prefer Tesco to Morrisons but I wouldn't say it was due to their staff being different,,that's way to much of a generalisation to be making .

 

[Jordan Adam]

Engineering, strange that as First in Livingston have not had an MOT failure in years.

I'm sorry but such a statement is false, I'll have to check the whole fleet on the DVLA site, but the chances of there not being a failure for "years" are very very very slim.

 

[OmniCity999]

You are biased then

Worked for First for 10 years. Left on good terms. Keep in touch.

 

[overthewater]

Worked for First for 10 years. Left on good terms. Keep in touch.

I shall tip my hat and unquestionable withdraw my point, however first is a different beast from a few years ago in Livingston.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

After working for Lothian myself I can see why drivers have voted for strike action, but behind the scenes to be fair all public transport companies are known for being bullies to drivers in someway or other, The players change but the game remains the same.

Stagecoach it is usually about being persuaded to drive faulty buses and doin more shifts than you morally should be doing.

First, a very similar story, shoddy, unmaintained buses is another problem.

At Lothian the highly respected reputation they know they have around edinburgh creates a strict environment to work within, more so than it needs to be, pettiness as you've likely heard mentioned before.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I shall tip my hat and unquestionable withdraw my point, however first is a different beast from a few years ago in Livingston.

I would use the term “beast” lightly.

As far as things seem to be atm Lothian are playing a far stronger game when it comes to the “whole package” provided, I don’t just mean the routes.

I think social media plays a far more important role in gauging todays introductory story of how a bus service is being received, as we have come to know Lothian are rather adept at there PR game through social media, displaying to those that they opened a travel help desk in Livingston, have purchased a new depot, these reasons are far from shall we say a miraculous stunt but they are certainly helping to grow a sense of the company doing a “good” job amongst the every day members of the public, even on the smallest of scales the colours they have chosen helps them stick out amongst all the blue....

If one thing thats absolutely, definitely missing from this venture is decent weekly and monthly tickets.

 

[In Focus]

First, a very similar story, shoddy, unmaintained buses is another problem

Can you back up this claim ?
Let's go back 4 years to when Livingston fleet was improved, can you point to any Pg9 offences or MOT Failure rate that will substantially back this claim ?
And yes historically going back to 90s and 00s I am aware of the issues but let's move onto what's relevant .

 

[Jordan Adam]

After working for Lothian myself I can see why drivers have voted for strike action, but behind the scenes to be fair all public transport companies are known for being bullies to drivers in someway or other, The players change but the game remains the same.

Stagecoach it is usually about being persuaded to drive faulty buses and doin more shifts than you morally should be doing.

First, a very similar story, shoddy, unmaintained buses is another problem.

At Lothian the highly respected reputation they know they have around edinburgh creates a strict environment to work within, more so than it needs to be, pettiness as you've likely heard mentioned before.

To be fair it's Stagecoach that tend to have the most "horror storeys" about management and certainly within Scotland are the ones most frequently in the press and being pulled by the TC for maintenance issues.

The only time i can recall First being pulled by the TC for maintenance issues in recent times was for the E300 that crashed in Glasgow last year, even then it's debatable if that was actually down to a lack of maintenance at First and the TC did confess that the maintenance record with First within Scotland was pretty good.

Lothian obviously have by far the best fleet presentation among the three, however driver moral is debatable.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Can you back up this claim ?
Let's go back 4 years to when Livingston fleet was improved, can you point to any Pg9 offences or MOT Failure rate that will substantially back this claim ?
And yes historically going back to 90s and 00s I am aware of the issues but let's move onto what's relevant .

When I say maintenance, Im generalising on this “whole package” and generally the whole company(even if that not right to do for this topic), comparing FSE, MBB(Midland Bluebird) and FiG, not just mechanically but both how a bus is maintained cleanliness wise, how a bus is in its mid to late life, give it a refresh etc etc.

The only reason we see a better level of service on WL routes from FSE is there basic understanding that they would have even less of a reputation and ergo less passengers if they offered anything less than what they do atm, “ESPECIALLY” with LC on the scene now!

On the merit of the current FSE fleet at Livi you can understand good reliability of there vehicles is helped by the fact they are so new.

However Experiencing a 14 year old Lothian Trident against a FiG trident of a similar age and it becomes crystal clear that long term lothian have a better grasp on maintenance than First do, subsidiary engineering teams may change but from my experience(previously working at Larbert for a short time) has an internal ethos which does not change amongst individual depots and its engineering teams.

In the same way that no one really knows who will come out on top in WL long term we shall see!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

To be fair it's Stagecoach that tend to have the most "horror storeys" about management and certainly within Scotland are the ones most frequently in the press and being pulled by the TC for maintenance issues.

The only time i can recall First being pulled by the TC for maintenance issues in recent times was for the E300 that crashed in Glasgow last year, even then it's debatable if that was actually down to a lack of maintenance at First and the TC did confess that the maintenance record with First within Scotland was pretty good.

Lothian obviously have by far the best fleet presentation among the three, however driver moral is debatable.

I’m near certain that much of the issues with the enviro 300’s are hereditarily gained because of its design & build to a much lighter standard, much of how I think of the midi buses we have discussed elsewhere, they do not feel as sturdy for as long as you get from a heavy duty bus, ie Scania and Volvo chassis.

ADL use/used Dana suspension on the 200/300/400 line and more recent the 400MMC range now uses ZF suspension all round, unfortunetly the MMC range are not as comfortable as there heavy weight brethren did 10 years ago, sad times!

Driving a bus in edinburgh is something that changes you as a driver, In edinburgh you certainly get a sense that the public expects just that little bit more than other areas out of its bus services.

As a result I found myself naturally being a happier driver willing to go that extra mile, at Stagecoach in Fife I certainly got to a point where you couldn't drive a bus without a warning beeper, believe it or not that was my reason for leaving stagey lol, anyways I find many passengers in edinburgh are rather polite people comparing that to Dundee and Glasgow, so I’ve found anyways, I have since moved away from driving the public about and I am even more of a happier person now lol, I would suggest people get a HGV driving job!

To everyone, apologies for clogging this post today!

 

[Jordan Adam]

However Experiencing a 14 year old Lothian Trident against a FiG trident of a similar age and it becomes crystal clear that long term lothian have a better grasp on maintenance than First do, subsidiary engineering teams may change but from my experience(previously working at Larbert for a short time) has an internal ethos which does not change amongst individual depots and its engineering teams.

Of course in the case of the Trident's the First examples had a far harder life being thrashed about in London then on the equally demanding Glasgow network. Most of them received Midlife refurbs around the turn of the last decade, but these were not that extensive and the signs of their hard life were pretty evident by the time they hit the 12 year old mark.

 

[In Focus]

However Experiencing a 14 year old Lothian Trident against a FiG trident of a similar age and it becomes crystal clear that long term lothian have a better grasp on maintenance than First do, s

I think this may have a lot to do with the vehicles history and the workload it has done before reaching 14 years of age .

 

[CM]

Of course in the case of the Trident's the First examples had a far harder life being thrashed about in London then on the equally demanding Glasgow network. Most of them received Midlife refurbs around the turn of the last decade, but these were not that extensive and the signs of their hard life were pretty evident by the time they hit the 12 year old mark.

Most of them didn't! As somone who travelled on FiGs Tridents daily, I can safely say that the majority of them didn't get a re-furb and instead the most they seemed to get was a single door conversion(with some done half arsed) and re-trimmed seats and that was it. The only Tridents FiG had/have that I know of that got a proper refurbishment are the 53 plated ALX400s and SOME of the long wheel base 51 plated Presidents.

The worst Tridents ever to grace the streets of Glasgow had to be the W reg ALX400s, most of which simply got a re-paint into barbie livery, an LED screen and then thrown out onto service with interiors in a shocking state.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I think this may have a lot to do with the vehicles history and the workload it has done before reaching 14 years of age .

I can't believe that, the 88s used years ago had trident which always overheated, they were eventually replaced with slightly newer trident, perhaps those were the 51 plates Colin mentions, which were only a few years newer but they were Refurbished and the engines overhauled, it really showed me to extent to which FiG particularly went down the route of having a bus overhauled once ever 10 years, not periodically maintaining them when it needed fixed, problemd got put off and off until you got overheating issues, interiors not being fixed etc etc

Hindsight tells me I should really be waiting to see what happens in another 10 years in glasgow, if FiG really will pick things up in Glasgow.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Back to Lothian Country...

 

[Jordan Adam]

The worst Tridents ever to grace the streets of Glasgow had to be the W reg ALX400s, most of which simply got a re-paint into barbie livery, an LED screen and then thrown out onto service with interiors in a shocking state.

Don't forget the W-VLNs, or as they were known in Aberdeen "The Slugs".

 

[ChrisPJ]

I don't think you can say that an Edinburgh Trident had a materially easier life than one new to London or one that did half its life in Glasgow. Still intensive urban operation with heavy loads and high mileage.

Maybe sweated a little less due to smaller night network than London but that's about it. The point is that preventative and reactive maintenance at Lothian is of a higher standard than the other large Scottish operators and that point is valid.

Also Lothian retire their buses at a younger age than First which helps avoid the impression that services are run by old clunkers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most of them didn't! As somone who travelled on FiGs Tridents daily, I can safely say that the majority of them didn't get a re-furb and instead the most they seemed to get was a single door conversion(with some done half arsed) and re-trimmed seats and that was it. The only Tridents FiG had/have that I know of that got a proper refurbishment are the 53 plated ALX400s and SOME of the long wheel base 51 plated Presidents.

The worst Tridents ever to grace the streets of Glasgow had to be the W reg ALX400s, most of which simply got a re-paint into barbie livery, an LED screen and then thrown out onto service with interiors in a shocking state.

The W reg ALXs were a sorry state - no refurbishments and the single door conversion still retained the bulkheads so pretty lousy all round.

However, some of the Presidents of the same age were definitely given a refurbishment - new seat cushions etc. 32843 was definitely one.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I don't think you can say that an Edinburgh Trident had a materially easier life than one new to London or one that did half its life in Glasgow. Still intensive urban operation with heavy loads and high mileage.

Maybe sweated a little less due to smaller night network than London but that's about it. The point is that preventative and reactive maintenance at Lothian is of a higher standard than the other large Scottish operators and that point is valid.

Also Lothian retire their buses at a younger age than First which helps avoid the impression that services are run by old clunkers.

Very few couldve have put that better...

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Does anyone know when Lothian's new Green Arrow coaches, which as far as I know are sitting doing nothing right now, will be put in to actual service and what that service will be? Surely a coach like that must be used on longer between stops motorway style running..

 

[OmniCity999]

Does anyone know when Lothian's new Green Arrow coaches, which as far as I know are sitting doing nothing right now, will be put in to actual service and what that service will be? Surely a coach like that must be used on longer between stops motorway style running..

These are currently at the Volvo garage in Broxburn where staff are being familiarised with the build so warranty work can take place quicker if needed down the line.

They have sat for a while yes, but are due to hit the streets soon.

 

[OmniCity999]

These are currently at the Volvo garage in Broxburn where staff are being familiarised with the build so warranty work can take place quicker if needed down the line.

They have sat for a while yes, but are due to hit the streets soon.

When a new type of vehicle is delivered to Lothian this is the case. The vehicle is delivered say at the start of April. It is then shown to management, engineering, social media and drivers and press. It is then taken (or shoen off in house) to its manufacturers to be shown off and made familiar should any warranty work need to take place down the line. After the manufacturers, it is taken to outsourcing companies, like Kings in Grangemouth and other local suppliers so that they are familiar with them.

If every single department that is to encounter that vehicle is 100% familiar with them, their downtime is minimum.

As you can probably imagine, making sure someone is 100% familiar with something takes time.

This happened with the XLB's and many previous batches...

 

[OmniCity999]

Duplicate

 

[Observer]

Most of them didn't! As somone who travelled on FiGs Tridents daily, I can safely say that the majority of them didn't get a re-furb and instead the most they seemed to get was a single door conversion(with some done half arsed) and re-trimmed seats and that was it. The only Tridents FiG had/have that I know of that got a proper refurbishment are the 53 plated ALX400s and SOME of the long wheel base 51 plated Presidents.

The worst Tridents ever to grace the streets of Glasgow had to be the W reg ALX400s, most of which simply got a re-paint into barbie livery, an LED screen and then thrown out onto service with interiors in a shocking state.

The T-LLCs were just as bad, and they had the gall to send them to Larbert and Livingston once Glasgow was done with them!

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Thank you OmniCity999

The website for Green arrow is still not active though. I do have some fears they will be used on X17 (I personally don't think they are suited to that style of work as they are a coach not bus so better for M8 etc..) but then again, might it be part of LMC ventures?

 

[lastbus]

Anyone know what LCB are like to work for? What’s the shift patterns, average duty length and paid time etc?

 

[OmniCity999]

Thank you OmniCity999

The website for Green arrow is still not active though. I do have some fears they will be used on X17 (I personally don't think they are suited to that style of work as they are a coach not bus so better for M8 etc..) but then again, might it be part of LMC ventures?

The Leopard service coaches are wholly owned by Lothian Country Buses. They are delivered to Lothian Country for Lothian Country routes, of which im not in a position to disclose.

The Green Arrow website does exist. Its a page that is currently private within the LMC website, the Green Arrow URL will just redirect to this page.

Lothian Country is owned by Lothian Buses, this means these Leopards could be used on any Lothian, East Coast Buses, Lothian Motorcoaches or Edinburgh Tours route, displaying the appropriate on loan details, of course. And yes, Lothian Motorcoaches are to have routes, their taking up CityLink work starting with a singular daily (i believe) return service to Fort William. One of the recent Levnate purchases has been painted all over white with CityLink names and a Lothian Motorcoaches interior refurb, with LMC wheel trims etc.

If this sort of work proves to be either lucrative or rewarding remains to be seen and if such more, similar work will be sought.

 

[Driver362]

Are working conditions really that much better?
Environment into a depot that was lying empty for months and difference of a few hundred yards?
Change of resources Van's to change over bus arrives ,drive bus ,not any real change.
Management are you telling me there are no disciplinary procedures at one company ?
Routes , one 27 / 28 is much like another and one village is same no matter the route number.
Engineering, strange that as First in Livingston have not had an MOT failure in years ,and no driver is asked to drive a faulty vehicle.
So nope I dont buy into these reasons ,maybe just public perception and propaganda through social media but whatever it is if it works for you and your mindset then that's a choice for each individual to make .
I prefer Tesco to Morrisons but I wouldn't say it was due to their staff being different,,that's way to much of a generalisation to be making .

And by your post your presuming we all came from first livingstone depot. I'm ex first and I didn't come livingston I had over a decade of working for first and know who I'd rather be working for. On the subject of grass being greener how many have came back to deans since leaving ?? Your point about keeping Edinburgh moving are on shuttle vans ! It's not the van doing the run to blackridge or wherever

 

[Driver362]

The talk is the X18, however the coaches have been sitting around nothing now for weeks, and if coaches are going on something new then thats another 8 week, expensive coaches are sitting around doing nothing. Great logic here. IE LCB



There would be draft to operate 22 or 26, There already have 7/8 service down A8, If there can;t fill up those buses what another 6 going to do? There would be smarter going after uni markets.

First may have gone after the right market, the tours ie the big bucks, Have Adult ticket cost £12 and family £30, It will forces them to cut there cost and hit Lothian bottom line. First could break even while making sure Lothian lose money.

I know when and where new coaches are going but I'm not at liberty to say I'm afraid

 

[alangla]

Who's going to want to do a tour on an unfamilliar brand with life expired vehicles when there is an alternative, well known brand using fresh, modern vehicles and a 5 star rating available.....nobody!

Is there not a Megabus branded tour in London using older stock? A bus is a bus to a lot of people & for a similar route, price very much comes in. Anyway, you should see the amount of 1980s UK and Hong Kong/Kenya via UK open toppers that Big Bus etc have exported to the US, many of which are still running round American cities carrying UK reg plates alongside the local ones.