West Lothian buses

[SpeedbirdA350]

its cost 6 million to get up and running

Where did you get that figure from? I know they are spending around that in TOTAL investment but they are still doing so and not already spent it all.
They never bought brand new buses exclusivly for the venture, and although they did draft in ex londoners, they were also for use on main fleet too. The £6m investment includes £700k for the depot building which they can sell again if they need too plus what ever modifications they need to do to the place and the fleet of buses can easily be painted in to madder again if need be so again, not a waste if they did close doors or even sold on. They also have some current Lothian within their fleet at the moment too ie 551. Investment.

hiring buses

Why would LCB need to hire their own buses? They own them outright so no hire cost, even from Lothian main company such as currently they are borrowing 551 for example. Just purchase price which is an investment and has resale value. Or do we look at routes 11 and 16 and say that THEY cost x million JUST for that route because they bought new B8L buses for it?

employ more staff to keep a depot ti king over

They COULD draft in staff from other depots but hire 120 staff, I don't see it as a bad thing but more employment in the area in my view is a good thing. Yes, when the council closed the depot when they moved, some might not have wanted to make the move but most did. It does not take many staff however to keep it "ticking over".

What is the difference between Lothian setting up 5 new routes within Lothian family and getting a new depot to make it 5 working depots, vs setting up LCB and doing the above?

Don't get me wrong, I think the expendature is big but so was the order for 42 B8L buses, so was the new fleet order for the 100 airport B8L (in progress) and so was setting up LC which WAS a new venture which needed proper investment with coaches which can't even be used on the main fleet but it looks like it is working. So was the expendature to set up Skylink 200, 300 and 400 with brand new buses. Yes, LCB might be making some mistakes right now but to say it is losing £100k per week is not something I can not agree with you on. Especially when you look at the current resale value on everything and the fact that this was the estemated total of investment, not what they have spent to date. Unless they have spent all £6m and they now have no money left over for anything which means they can't do anything else with the depot or buses...

 

[In Focus]

are spending around that in TOTAL investment but they are still doing so and not already spent it all.
They never bought brand new buses exclusivly for the venture, and although they did draft in ex londoners, they were also for use on main fleet too. The £6m investment includes £700k for the depot building which they can sell again if they need too plus what ever modifications they need to do to the place and the fleet of buses can easily be painted in to madder again if need be so again, not a waste if they did close doors or even sold on. They also have some current Lothian within their fleet at the moment too ie 551. Investment.

6 million is 6 million. They quote it regularly on press release

They COULD draft in staff from other depots but hire 120 staff, I don't see it as a bad thing but more employment in the area in my view is a good thing. Yes, when the council closed the depot when they moved, some might not have wanted to make the move but most did. It does not take many staff however to keep it "ticking over".

What is the difference between Lothian setting up 5 new routes within Lothian family and getting a new depot to make it 5 working depots, vs setting up LCB and doing the above

They already do use Lothian staff at a considerable cost , they are not creating "new employment " how many have come through their training academy as non licence holders ? How many have gone from other companies?
It will take another 10 staff ,cleaners shunters,fuellers ,mechanics etc and they are already advertising ,now these are jobs being created.
How does it equate as a "good thing " if they employ 120 but 250 get made redundant from other companues due to lack of work? Good thing for the 120 bad thing for employees of other companies surely?

Put quite simply in this business you put out this much money you need passengers on seats and more so where no council subsidy is available and in first 6months they are running at around 10 % capacity on average and have put on routes like 287 + X18 which will never generate close the revenue required to cover costs, now they are putting on another 6 vehicles to run around empty and that roughly another 700,000 over a year.
Where or what is the business logic in this venture ,it makes absolutely no sense and even if my numbers are viewed as wrong by some it's still a massive white elephant unless anyone wants to claim it's making money ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

6 million to set it up,(LCB figure),
30 buses and staff running costs for 1st 6 months approx 60000 per bus that approx 7.8 million for 1st 6months , I'd say at £100,000 per Week that very conservative estimate this far into this venture . Someone must be absolutely cringing at the profit and loss columns and be visiting Church every Sunday to pray First decide to sack it soon or this could be an epic disaster .

Running a bus for a year is about £120k a year. That’s cost - excluding ANY revenue. So £70k/wk cost before any revenue.

A fair chunk of the £6m investment is on vehicles and the property - that’ll be capital spread over many years and can be realised in part even if they close.

Sorry but don’t think you understand the figures.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

6 million is 6 million. They quote it regularly on press release

When I read their releases it always says they are spending £6m investment, not we have spent £6m. There is a massive difference. As I also said, some of the investment is in actual goods ie bricks and mortar and vehicles.

They already do use Lothian staff at a considerable cost , they are not creating "new employment " how many have come through their training academy as non licence holders ? How many have gone from other companies?
It will take another 10 staff ,cleaners shunters,fuellers ,mechanics etc and they are already advertising ,now these are jobs being created.
How does it equate as a "good thing " if they employ 120 but 250 get made redundant from other companues due to lack of work? Good thing for the 120 bad thing for employees of other companies surely?

Put quite simply in this business you put out this much money you need passengers on seats and more so where no council subsidy is available and in first 6months they are running at around 10 % capacity on average and have put on routes like 287 + X18 which will never generate close the revenue required to cover costs, now they are putting on another 6 vehicles to run around empty and that roughly another 700,000 over a year.
Where or what is the business logic in this venture ,it makes absolutely no sense and even if my numbers are viewed as wrong by some it's still a massive white elephant unless anyone wants to claim it's making money ?

The cost of Lothian staff to LCB is negligable as they are already in the company, already being paid by the company and if they have been moved from one part to the other, it is just the same as the guy who deals with the deli in supermarket to serve you at the checkout or deliver your shopping to your home. As for other companies closing down, that is not the fault of Lothian. Lothian never told the council to close down and move depot, they never told x shop to close down so if Lothian never opened up these jobs, they might not be another business in that area for a while who would. So I DO see that as a good thing as it means employment. If we take your figures of 250 job lost, 120 hired, 130 loss is better than 250.

I look at how First are digging in, and Lothian did not expect that but Lothian will not run a bus on a route that is going to lose them a ton of cash, so either they are still monitoring things, hopeful of First moving out (won't happen soon) or they will change things.

 

[In Focus]

Running a bus for a year is about £120k a year. That’s cost - excluding ANY revenue. So £70k/wk cost before any revenue.

A fair chunk of the £6m investment is on vehicles and the property - that’ll be capital spread over many years and can be realised in part even if they close.

Sorry but don’t think you understand the figures.

Sorry but I dont think you understand empty buses and throwing more money at a thing to resolve the issue is business suicide .

 

[Driver362]

Very,very,very rarely do we use Lothian drivers.in fact I have been at LC since phase 1and can't ever recall a "lothian" driver driving our buses .OK maybe 1 but he is now a street supervisor with us .as speedbird stated we do not hire any buses from Lothian 551 is now ours as well as 571/5 I think it is .however 591/4 is on loan from Lothian shure there maintenance costs probably come from LC budget as per first with loan vehicles it's not hiring them .again it's all the negatives which you focus on my freind, is the common narrative from you .again I would say get your own house in order before critiquing others . Just the other day I saw a bus leave the centre with 1051 Whitburn w/e should that not be 21? .this bus was closely followed by by a streetlight completely lop sided to o/so to pg 9 levels or whatever it's called nowadays. And shortly after a training bus running around with a headlight out going against first policy of full dipped beam at ALL times ; great example being set for trainee's .added to certain services being at 10%or bellow I. E 600 ! Shure 21 and 25 are busy the rest not so much. As always trying to inject a bit of balance.and 1 other thing if you are so committed to first as you come across why do care how much Lothian are spending ??

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sorry but I dont think you understand empty buses and throwing more money at a thing to resolve the issue is business suicide .

I know that but you’re saying it’s a min £100k/wk loss and it just isn’t even if there was no revenue at all.

 

[In Focus]

look at how First are digging in, and Lothian did not expect that but Lothian will not run a bus on a route that is going to lose them a ton of cash, so either they are still monitoring things, hopeful of First moving out (won't happen soon) or they will change things.

You just dont get West Lothian public transport.
Already x18 changing after weeks due to what?
287 changing due to what ?
By changing do you really think buses will suddenly be full ?
280 doing ok just now but greed makes increasing service to dilute numbers look desperate.
Now a 281 to add more empty vehicles running around !!

 

[overthewater]

X18 was claimed to be competition to the train and yet the service has been pulled out Wester inch, X18 is not a busy service. Passengers from Deans and knightbridge are staying with First because the routes are quicker. What turns up first get the passengers on most routes. I have notice LCB now doing the same as First and not putting out the timetables, heck X27/28 has yet to be reprinted...

 

[In Focus]

Very,very,very do we use Lothian drivers.in fact I have been at LC since phase 1and can't ever recall a "lothian" driver driving our buses .OK maybe 1 but he is now a street supervisor with us .as speedbird stated we do not hire any buses from Lothian 551 is now ours as well as 571/5 I think it is .however 591/4 is on loan from Lothian shure there maintenance probably come from LC budget as per first with loan vehicles it's not hiring them .again it's all the negatives which my freindeer is a common narrative from yourself.again I would say get your own house in order before critiquing others . Just the other day I saw a bus leave the centre with 1051 Whitburn w/e should that not be 21? .this bus was closely followed by by a streetlight completely lop sided to o/so to pg 9 levels or whatever it's called nowadays. And shortly after a training bus running around with a headlight out going against first policy of full dipped beam at ALL times ; great example being set for trainee's .added to certain services being at 10%or bellow I. E 600 ! Share 21 and 25 are busy the rest not so much. As always trying to inject a bit of balance

That be like the 287 sat at farm foods with maintenance at it this morning ?
Or the same x28 that's broken down twice this week ?
Only adding balance
Seen the poppy bus on X28 other day is this now a LCB ?
You and I know these things happen on a daily basis just as everyone knows nothing these companies are going to load the area with vehicles until 1 cannot continue.
Until then the few people in West Lothian who use buses should enjoy it !!

 

[In Focus]

X18 was claimed to be competition to the train and yet the service has been pulled out Wester inch, X18 is not a busy service. Passengers from Deans and knightbridge are staying with First because the routes are quicker. What turns up first get the passengers on most routes. I have notice LCB now doing the same as First and not putting out the timetables, heck X27/28 has yet to be reprinted...

As I've said many times the bus service will NEVER compete with train from Armadale / Bathgate .
You are correct which is why both companies over the summer months are going to put way too many buses into these roads ,both racking up massive losses in the process ,it may come down to who's pockets are deepest .

 

[Driver362]

That's exactly my point .the x18 was removed because it wasn't getting used it's as simple as that.287 to give people from ladywell west a choice as per 280 .yes the poppy bus is a LC bus now

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Just had a little clearer look at the new routes that start today. Bizarrely the one way loop at Bathgate on the X27/X28 still exists (even though its terminating at Morrison's now) rather than going along South Bridge Street and down Menzies Road like the 26 does. In my own view the 287 sitting on South Bridge Street certainly doesn't help as whenever I seem to see it it just sits and blocks the road. What they should do with that is from Wester Inch serve Morrison's, then up Menzies Road, along South Bridge Street and turn at the Station. That way its barely wasting time and its out of the way, a win-win. Not an expert on West Lothian by any means but the 281 is just another copy route from first. I think they wanted to have it go to Fauldhouse and I still think it ultimately will but I just don't think they have the resources for it. As someone who has a few pals in Livi cutting back the last two 275's that go to Edinburgh Park as far as Broxburn will be a right pain for me as I connect with the 200 so I guess it's no more late nights for me then And I have no NightBuses either meaning along the A71 isn't an option. Still nothing to Harthill and I doubt we'll see anything as its out of area.

The one thing that amazes me is that they haven't used the Fastlink or served Deer Park at all, yet this road is by some distance the quickest way into Livi compared to the others, one has to wonder if this is a deliberate move. Still surprised that they haven't tried a route to dent the 600.

It seems with me everything they should be doing is the exact opposite. Someone made a point earlier about trying to get rid of the dividends to oay for the trams - given how much this expansion is costing perhaps this is true and dare I day it Lothian have done this to intentionally lose money so that the council have less to play with whilst Lothian can still buy the new fleet. If they have actually come out to West Lothian to play the game this is arguably the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

So let's see what Phase 5 is, if you don't want trams hopefully more lossmakers. If you want the trams I'm sorry this isn't gonna be your day and if you're like me and you don't give a damn about the trams but still find it funny to see Lothian in WL it's just having the nice cheap fare thanks to the ridacard that makes you like the whole thing.

I've said my piece now I'll retract back to my nest

 

[winston270twm]

6 million is 6 million. They quote it regularly on press release

They already do use Lothian staff at a considerable cost , they are not creating "new employment " how many have come through their training academy as non licence holders ? How many have gone from other companies?
It will take another 10 staff ,cleaners shunters,fuellers ,mechanics etc and they are already advertising ,now these are jobs being created.
How does it equate as a "good thing " if they employ 120 but 250 get made redundant from other companues due to lack of work? Good thing for the 120 bad thing for employees of other companies surely?

Put quite simply in this business you put out this much money you need passengers on seats and more so where no council subsidy is available and in first 6months they are running at around 10 % capacity on average and have put on routes like 287 + X18 which will never generate close the revenue required to cover costs, now they are putting on another 6 vehicles to run around empty and that roughly another 700,000 over a year.
Where or what is the business logic in this venture ,it makes absolutely no sense and even if my numbers are viewed as wrong by some it's still a massive white elephant unless anyone wants to claim it's making money ?

They also quote the following 'The total value of their investment should exceed £6 million' i.e. it's not all spent yet. Of which £700k is on property,

Whether or not the 120 new jobs have created employment for West Lothian's, or those jobs have been filled from within Lothian, the fact remains this new venture has created 120 new jobs!

Lets face it, you're clearly employed by First, if what you say is correct i.e. that LCB are carrying fresh air / incurring massive losses, you haven't got to worry about your job!

 

[David 90825]

X18 was claimed to be competition to the train and yet the service has been pulled out Wester inch, X18 is not a busy service. Passengers from Deans and knightbridge are staying with First because the routes are quicker. What turns up first get the passengers on most routes. I have notice LCB now doing the same as First and not putting out the timetables, heck X27/28 has yet to be reprinted...

The X27/X28 timetable leaflet has been reprinted. I obtained all of the timetables for today's alterations on Friday 29 March 2019 at Waverley Bridge. I would have thought that the new timetables would be available in Bathgate and Livingston as well.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They also quote the following 'The total value of their investment should exceed £6 million' i.e. it's not all spent yet. Of which £700k is on property,

Whether or not the 120 new jobs have created employment for West Lothian's, or those jobs have been filled from within Lothian, the fact remains this new venture has created 120 new jobs!

Lets face it, you're clearly employed by First, if what you say is correct i.e. that LCB are carrying fresh air / incurring massive losses, you haven't got to worry about your job!

Quite so Winston.

I don't believe that there is anyone, on either side of the fence, suggesting that Lothian are making money on this adventure. I would venture that their business plan would also be based on making a loss at this stage.

The £6m investment will be in both vehicles and property and that will be capitalised. The actual week to week costs (and losses) will be much more modest and, as "in focus" even admits, another 6 vehicles equates to an outline cost of £700k (or about £120k per year each or just over £2k per week) so how figures of total losses of £100k per week MINIMUM are arrived at (irrespective of any revenue that they are getting), I have no idea.

Lothian are doubtless losing money as will First. Clearly Lothian believe that First will simply walk away and not contest this. I was never certain of the validity of that view; perhaps in 2012 but not in 2018/9 even despite First's issues. Even if they're losing £30k a week - no small amount but probably not enough to materially impact the Lothian results. Of course, keep doing that for a year or two, then questions certainly will get asked.

 

[winston270twm]

Quite so Winston.

I don't believe that there is anyone, on either side of the fence, suggesting that Lothian are making money on this adventure. I would venture that their business plan would also be based on making a loss at this stage.

The £6m investment will be in both vehicles and property and that will be capitalised. The actual week to week costs (and losses) will be much more modest and, as "in focus" even admits, another 6 vehicles equates to an outline cost of £700k (or about £120k per year each or just over £2k per week) so how figures of total losses of £100k per week MINIMUM are arrived at (irrespective of any revenue that they are getting), I have no idea.

Lothian are doubtless losing money as will First. Clearly Lothian believe that First will simply walk away and not contest this. I was never certain of the validity of that view; perhaps in 2012 but not in 2018/9 even despite First's issues. Even if they're losing £30k a week - no small amount but probably not enough to materially impact the Lothian results. Of course, keep doing that for a year or two, then questions certainly will get asked.

Totally agree TGW.

Lothian are clearly going through a expansive phase, with ECB, Lothian Motorcoaches & now LCB. As I've said before, the timing of this West Lothian incursion by Lothian is a few years too late. But Lothian clearly seem to be planning on sticking around long term having purchased a depot rather than simply leasing a site. No matter how much the First fans whine about Lothian's antics, ultimately it's just business, Lothian have as much right to set up in West Lothian as First do in Central Edinburgh.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[CM]

I think certain people seem to forget that West Lothian Council have shares in Lothian and it's various subsidiaries so It seems only reasonable that they get a slice of the action. There seems to be far too much negativity and hate for Lothian Country on here and usually from the same few people. I wonder though, if First had instead launched an attack on Lothian's city services would these same people come on here and show the same hate and negativity towards First......more than likley!

Grow up...

 

[Siemens Trains]

I think certain people seem to forget that West Lothian Council have shares in Lothian and it's various subsidiaries so It seems only reasonable that they get a slice of the action. There seems to be far too much negativity and hate for Lothian Country on here and usually from the same few people. I wonder though, if First had instead launched an attack on Lothian's city services would these same people come on here and show the same hate and negativity towards First......more than likley!

Grow up...

The 'slice of action' that shareholding councils are supposed to get is a proportion of dividends from Lothian Buses. The councils benefit from the company making a profit overall rather than from it operating loss-making local bus services. Also, there shouldn't be any question of shareholding councils pulling strings to protect any company whose shares they own.

It's only natural that some people will tend to have sympathy with an incumbent operator that put effort into developing profitable services through time over a Johnny-come-lately walking in and pinching business with identical routes or unsustainable fares. However if you look more closely that isn't really what's happening in West Lothian. This thread is littered with folk criticising Lothian Country fares as being too expensive or their routes being unattractive. If Lothian's venture ousts First fom the area it won't be because their tactics have been unfair or especially aggressive - it will be because passengers prefer the product on offer. A benefit of deregulation was supposed to be offering passengers a choice, and this is what people in West Lothian have. At least for just now.

 

[CM]

I'd hardly call Lothian a "Johhny-come-latley" operator.....

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Lothian Country move into their new home in Livingston this weekend.

They still parking up at Longstone so not using Livi yet.

 

[In Focus]

I think certain people seem to forget that West Lothian Council have shares in Lothian and it's various subsidiaries so It seems only reasonable that they get a slice of the action. There seems to be far too much negativity and hate for Lothian Country on here and usually from the same few people. I wonder though, if First had instead launched an attack on Lothian's city services would these same people come on here and show the same hate and negativity towards First......more than likley!

Grow up...

Try suggesting that First are going into Edinbirgh as was recently muted and you will get your answer.

 

[In Focus]

The 'slice of action' that shareholding councils are supposed to get is a proportion of dividends from Lothian Buses. The councils benefit from the company making a profit overall rather than from it operating loss-making local bus services. Also, there shouldn't be any question of shareholding councils pulling strings to protect any company whose shares they own.

It's only natural that some people will tend to have sympathy with an incumbent operator that put effort into developing profitable services through time over a Johnny-come-lately walking in and pinching business with identical routes or unsustainable fares. However if you look more closely that isn't really what's happening in West Lothian. This thread is littered with folk criticising Lothian Country fares as being too expensive or their routes being unattractive. If Lothian's venture ousts First fom the area it won't be because their tactics have been unfair or especially aggressive - it will be because passengers prefer the product on offer. A benefit of deregulation was supposed to be offering passengers a choice, and this is what people in West Lothian have. At least for just now.

However if any company try to muscle into Lothian territory like Edinburgh Airport all hell let's loose .
And I disagree about them being "aggressive" running exact duplicate routes that belonged to another operator is not ground breaking business tactics , as for preferring either company up to now it's not really been the case that may of course change .

 

[In Focus]

They still parking up at Longstone so not using Livi yet.

Didn't happen . Meticulous planning gone out the window .
Although buses are changing over at different points now

 

[Jordan Adam]

They still parking up at Longstone so not using Livi yet.

There's been gas related issues on the new site.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's only natural that some people will tend to have sympathy with an incumbent operator that put effort into developing profitable services through time over a Johnny-come-lately walking in and pinching business with identical routes or unsustainable fares. However if you look more closely that isn't really what's happening in West Lothian. This thread is littered with folk criticising Lothian Country fares as being too expensive or their routes being unattractive. If Lothian's venture ousts First fom the area it won't be because their tactics have been unfair or especially aggressive - it will be because passengers prefer the product on offer. A benefit of deregulation was supposed to be offering passengers a choice, and this is what people in West Lothian have. At least for just now.

I do understand where you're coming from though and agree with a fair chunk of what you say. They (LCB) haven't just replicated the First network though, to be honest, they are covering most of the main flows. That's only to be expected - they're putting them where people naturally want to go rather than the usual thing with enthusiasts of wondering why firms compete over existing routes/corridors.

That Lothian aren't competing on cost or with a carbon copy network is one of the many interesting elements of this battle. Should First retaliate with something in the city (and I'm still dubious on that), then that's fair competition too.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I think certain people seem to forget that West Lothian Council have shares in Lothian and it's various subsidiaries so It seems only reasonable that they get a slice of the action. There seems to be far too much negativity and hate for Lothian Country on here and usually from the same few people. I wonder though, if First had instead launched an attack on Lothian's city services would these same people come on here and show the same hate and negativity towards First......more than likley!

Grow up...

Being a Lothian enthusiast with no shame I agree that while some of the criticisms against LCB can be justified (ex: no week or monthly tickets) and while I can’t fully comment on the comparison between LCB routes and Firsts routes within West Lothian, I think some folk are too hard on LCB as for what they are, they still provide a good service, they might not always be the busiest but they aren’t underused either, these changes should bring some good advantages, like I can see the X27/X28 getting more popular within the city with the additional stops.

and the X18 is a handy direct link to Bathgate if you don’t fancy the train, the 7.50 daytickets are good value for what you get within Edinburgh too, and it seems they Lothian are encouraging folk to buy daytickets than singles for that value, maybe they will bring out weekly/monthly tickets once they settle into their new depot, Rome wasent built in a day and it’s clear that Lothian aren’t backing down now or anytime, it’s been almost 9 months and they aren’t planning to stop growing, the fare zones won’t change or decrease without it effecting the entire Lothian network, I hope Lothian succeed more in West Lothian throughout the year, though I do hope though that LCB don’t forget about the 43.. it did all start with Queensferry after all..

Also 571 looks gorgeous in LCB colours!

 

[Darklord8899]

They still parking up at Longstone so not using Livi yet.

I still haven't seen a registration for Livi go through the N&P ....
Nor does it show on either LB or LCB license as an operating centre....
(Though last N&P I've seen is 2221 from 25th March)

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Some buses ie 574 have been repainted and now carry LV on the side window. Have they have the airport baggage hold removed and seats put in their place?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Have they have the airport baggage hold removed and seats put in their place?

Nope.