West Lothian buses

[In Focus]

January changes as predicted, expect more changes and a fares revision within First 4 months on next year.

https://www.firstgroup.com/south-ea...-service-updates/west-lothian-network-changes

First Scotland East are launching Network Changes in West Lothian, effective from January 28th 2019.
We want to make sure you're prepared for these changes before travelling with us so we've summarised some of the key points for you below:

• Improved links from Livingston to Bathgate.
  
  
• More direct links to St John’s Hospital from Whitburn, Blackburn, Seafield and Livingston Village.
  
  
• Service 27 improved to offer new links to Livingston South station route through Dedridge simplified to offer both ways operation through the estate.
  
  
• Vast improvement of frequency to service 38 between Linlithgow and Edinburgh.

 

[Driver362]

Newbridge now off , we’re heading to Livingston location undisclosed as yet hopefully in time for phase4

 

[overthewater]

Newbridge isn't opening anymore? Where is Lothian motor services going? I doubt Phrase 4 will be happening anytime soon, until that depot is sorted.

 

[goldisgood]

If the loadings are anything like people are saying on here I'd say it'll be back to Phase 0 before long

 

[In Focus]

It was cancelled a few weeks ago when planning was knocked back to raise the roof ,be interesting how the staff from Edinburgh feel about travelling to a depot in Livingston.

 

[overthewater]

That a shame since it could have also helped out the Edinburgh services etc Lothian should really stuck to what its has, and revise the current network to build up more passengers.

 

[Driver362]

Coaches are staying where they are there will be revisisions to the network after the move to Livingstonre goldisgood just as well the high heid yin’s don’t look in here for loading figures eh ?

 

[overthewater]

Coaches are staying where they are there will be revisions to the network after the move to Livingstonre goldisgood just as well the high heid yin’s don’t look in here for loading figures eh ?

Wait a min, Newbridge is staying for coach operations and new base in Livingston will be opened just for LCB? It looks like everyone is digging in for the long haul? 2020 before someone blink it would seem

 

[In Focus]

Wait a min, Newbridge is staying for coach operations and new base in Livingston will be opened just for LCB? It looks like everyone is digging in for the long haul? 2020 before someone blink it would seem

Seems like it as First have just secured a place within Livingston Centre area for a drivers rest room which makes a lot of sense considering the network is built around the Centre,it also makes very good financial sense to do change overs without use of so many vans.
Long haul it is ....

 

[overthewater]

I just wish there would put their timetables on that BIG enquire desk at the front door of the "O Shopping centre.

 

[trainmania100]

Deletes

 

[Driver362]

OTW ,that as I understand it is correct , plans are afoot for phase 4 and a review of current network ,I think also they have known for some time planning or otherwise that it would never be big enough for what they want to put in it i.e coaches ,lcb ,and heritage fleet ,I'm guessing heritage fleet would be of limits at Newbridge too as most are deckers Inc routemasters ,but also heard coach dept are getting more stock too ,

 

[Observer]

It was cancelled a few weeks ago when planning was knocked back to raise the roof ,be interesting how the staff from Edinburgh feel about travelling to a depot in Livingston.

Plenty of LCB drivers coming from outwith Edinburgh to work there, not like the longer commute is something new. Plus I'm sure people would have realised that a base in West Lothian was going to happen sooner or later, all part of the plan. Seems whilst First are fighting back, LCB aren't throwing in the towel so quick. Eventually one will have to go.

 

[In Focus]

Plenty of LCB drivers coming from outwith Edinburgh to work there, not like the longer commute is something new. Plus I'm sure people would have realised that a base in West Lothian was going to happen sooner or later, all part of the plan. Seems whilst First are fighting back, LCB aren't throwing in the towel so quick. Eventually one will have to go.

Without a doubt ,said from day one by the end of 2019 one of these won't be operating ,wonder how long Lothian buses will bankroll a white Elephant in the West ?
Know for a fact word is group are going to back First for what it takes and however long it takes ,although as we all know in this business it can change quickly and money talks.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Without a doubt ,said from day one by the end of 2019 one of these won't be operating ,wonder how long Lothian buses will bankroll a white Elephant in the West ?
Know for a fact word is group are going to back First for what it takes and however long it takes ,although as we all know in this business it can change quickly and money talks.

In general the whole Scotland business is quite stable, although totally hypothetical i'd love to see "First Scotland" branch off from FirstGroup. Given how well the 3 divisions generally preform i think this would be far better than privatisation. While Stagecoach do operate in Aberdeen the likelihood of them taking on or trying any city services is very highly unlikely. Glasgow is quite large, a good earner and seeing lots of investment. West Lothian has been showing growth (prior to Halls vanity rush), and Stirling/Falkirk while probably the worst of the lot still isn't all that troubled either. It's always seemed to me that most of First's issues come from south of the Border.

 

[Driver362]

Jordan I admire your knowledge and enthusiasm for our industry in general and first in particular,why and what evidence do you have that this is a vanity project and not a business one is it beyond comprehension that they can operate buses wherever they like subject to Tc licensing etc if they are a market and as I've said the clue is in the name LOTHIAN i.e West Lothian ! And who k does could West Lothian been keen for LOTHIAN to come in the same for coach operations satisfy Tc and you can run them wherever you like (international) licenses same for heritage fleet Aberdeen have one also I believe could it be he has a vision for un tapped markets rather than this so called vanity project

 

[In Focus]

Jordan I admire your knowledge and enthusiasm for our industry in general and first in particular,why and what evidence do you have that this is a vanity project and not a business one is it beyond comprehension that they can operate buses wherever they like subject to Tc licensing etc if they are a market and as I've said the clue is in the name LOTHIAN i.e West Lothian ! And who k does could West Lothian been keen for LOTHIAN to come in the same for coach operations satisfy Tc and you can run them wherever you like (international) licenses same for heritage fleet Aberdeen have one also I believe could it be he has a vision for un tapped markets rather than this so called vanity project

Do they really believe that WL is a golden cash cow ? It's certainly not 1994 told them that.
Are LCB working under the pretence only jist launched it will get busier the more routes we put on ? It won't what you are lifting now is what is going to be there it won't suddenly turn into the City.
Why would any business decide to take on routes that have for so long been loss making ,where is the new business going to suddenly spring up from ?
Whoever designed LCB routes in WL has some kind of past connection with SMT or First however trying to go back in time is never going to work unless your Marty McCoy.
This is not intended to to say LCB don't have a right to operate of course they do but the planning and expectations IMO are out the ball park and it would be interesting to hear how it's going and see the figures monetary and passenger wise for the first 3 phases as just bringing on phases to run up more losses would be the craziest business practice ever and be assured there are no more passengers suddenly appearing.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Jordan I admire your knowledge and enthusiasm for our industry in general and first in particular,why and what evidence do you have that this is a vanity project and not a business one is it beyond comprehension that they can operate buses wherever they like subject to Tc licensing etc if they are a market and as I've said the clue is in the name LOTHIAN i.e West Lothian ! And who k does could West Lothian been keen for LOTHIAN to come in the same for coach operations satisfy Tc and you can run them wherever you like (international) licenses same for heritage fleet Aberdeen have one also I believe could it be he has a vision for un tapped markets rather than this so called vanity project

As i believe you work for Lothian your reaction is to be expected. I never said Lothian were not allowed to try serving in WL, nor did I quite say West Lothian was a vanity project. I just said "prior to Halls vanity rush". It was partially sarcasm, but to some extent true. From what i gather in my view Lothian entered West Lothian thinking they could clear First's services as they have the "Lothian brand". They had great success in East Lothian and were thinking this could be repeated to the west. Clearly they've not managed to clear "those dirty old blue buses" (as certain Hall admirers put it). It should also be noted though that Lothian have clearly at least had some impact in that First are actually listening to the public for once!

As for LMC, that's a whole different topic. Which i will refrain from tapping on in this thread.

 

[overthewater]

I don't mind Lothian going into West lothian either but if Lothian management want to do stupid things, then people will criticised. Bizzer routes, lack of FULL week and monthly tickets fare which punish certain customers. I do believe there is some untapped market within the WL area, however LCB hasn't gone after them...

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I don't mind Lothian going into West lothian either but if Lothian management want to do stupid things, then people will criticised. Bizzer routes, lack of FULL week and monthly tickets fare which punish certain customers. I do believe there is some untapped market within the WL area, however LCB hasn't gone after them...

What untapped market?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do they really believe that WL is a golden cash cow ? It's certainly not 1994 told them that.
Are LCB working under the pretence only jist launched it will get busier the more routes we put on ? It won't what you are lifting now is what is going to be there it won't suddenly turn into the City.
Why would any business decide to take on routes that have for so long been loss making ,where is the new business going to suddenly spring up from ?
Whoever designed LCB routes in WL has some kind of past connection with SMT or First however trying to go back in time is never going to work unless your Marty McCoy.
This is not intended to to say LCB don't have a right to operate of course they do but the planning and expectations IMO are out the ball park and it would be interesting to hear how it's going and see the figures monetary and passenger wise for the first 3 phases as just bringing on phases to run up more losses would be the craziest business practice ever and be assured there are no more passengers suddenly appearing.

Some fair points. Clearly there are some partisan views from both sides on this debate. However, a few points to remember:

• First clearly mismanaged the old SMT/ESOL business - coupled with underinvestment etc
• They were not helped by the various MMC undertakings that hamstrung their bus operations
• First are not as passive generally in dealing with competition as they were
• The WL Lothian ops have benefited from investment so the “quality gap” is not what it once was
• There’s a decent margin for one firm - losses for two
• However, First will probably be losing less - incumbent advantage and the lack of start up costs

It looks like First have not initially responded but instead taken a look at those areas where LCB have had some success and elected to target those. They’re playing the low profile, gentle pressure game and not investing too much. Two contrasting approaches - be interesting to see how it progresses.

In a way, if all the reports of LCB phase 4 and a Livi depot are true, then they will have to go for it. Don’t do it, then have they blinked first?

Alternatively, First don’t invest much and easier for them to walk away but I don’t think they will. Do that and it establishes a precedent that they’ve pretty well avoided over the last 4/5 years

 

[Driver362]

Yes Jordan i do ,I've been open about that from my very first post ,forgive me my indulgence thinking that's what you meant as I seem to recall a post of yours saying " halls latest vanity project" I really don't think they are that arrogant as to think that way and as we both know and as been discussed ecb was created as lcb for a.while different reason ,than entering a.New operations area and I credit you do with the intelligence to understand that , as already stated we are a start up operation and once the move to Livingston is complete there will be a first esque network review ,as I've also stated I worked for first for a good number of years and I'm grateful to the living afforded to me ,just I work for the other lot the job is still f@#£%d just less so there

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Some fair points. Clearly there are some partisan views from both sides on this debate. However, a few points to remember:

• First clearly mismanaged the old SMT/ESOL business - coupled with underinvestment etc
• They were not helped by the various MMC undertakings that hamstrung their bus operations
• First are not as passive generally in dealing with competition as they were
• The WL Lothian ops have benefited from investment so the “quality gap” is not what it once was
• There’s a decent margin for one firm - losses for two
• However, First will probably be losing less - incumbent advantage and the lack of start up costs

It looks like First have not initially responded but instead taken a look at those areas where LCB have had some success and elected to target those. They’re playing the low profile, gentle pressure game and not investing too much. Two contrasting approaches - be interesting to see how it progresses.

In a way, if all the reports of LCB phase 4 and a Livi depot are true, then they will have to go for it. Don’t do it, then have they blinked first?

Alternatively, First don’t invest much and easier for them to walk away but I don’t think they will. Do that and it establishes a precedent that they’ve pretty well avoided over the last 4/5 years

As far as I can gather Lothian are currently generating around £8m in profit after there dividend to Edinburgh Council from there other operations which is still superior than what FSE are generating in WL, essentially using that profit to subsidies there LC venture, I highly doubt Lothian will flee anytime soon as I also doubt that FSE will retaliate much more if LC were to come in even heavier in the future with lower fares and/or a weekly/monthly Ridacard option with further revised, larger service.

 

[goldisgood]

As far as I can gather Lothian are currently generating around 8m in profit after there dividend to Edinburgh Council from there city centre operations which is still superior than what FSE are generating in WL, I highly doubt Lothian will flee anytime soon as I douby that FSE will retaliate much more if LC were to come in even heavier in the future with lower fares and/or a weekly/monthly Ridacard option.

What TGW means is that in West Lothian, not the city, First will be losing less than Lothian Country (if First is losing anything at all).

 

[Driver362]

Ok ,since we're talking dividends and losses etc ,see unless first have changed there model all those busses have to be paid for our of operating profit they are not gifted to each opp co ,kinda h.p from group if you like ,then factor in the running costs of above ,breakdowns, repair and maintenance etc t traing new drivers at deans wages etc ,'re paints of witch there are many plus buses in reserve that still have book value in the thousands sitting rotting away probably to be given to alpha or some such with a full tank of fuel and all ticketing and drivegreen equipment still attached, and deans general ability to lose vast sums of money ,then as I've said would love to see fse balance sheet maybe Jordan can tell us through his extensive knowledge of first Scotland East financial prowess as stated in a previous post that they are doing well generally ,I'm not naive enough to think lcb arnt losing money I drive the things every day but Lothian is not intend ing to go any time soon

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What TGW means is that in West Lothian, not the city, First will be losing less than Lothian Country (if First is losing anything at all).

Absolutely - purely looking at WL.

Once you start looking elsewhere, you'll find First have deeper pockets (despite their obvious challenges)

Driver 362 is being rather partisan and slightly disingenuous. The First operations simply won't have the level of one off costs. Whilst LCB can (and doubtless will) be able to capitalise some of those costs, there are quite a number that they can't (because of GAAP stipulations). All the other stuff about Alpha will have already been incurred.

This becomes a rather interesting case of high investment from Lothian (but can they then easily walk away?) vs low, marginal investment from First (easier to fund but easier to leave).

 

[Volvodart]

then as I've said would love to see fse balance sheet maybe Jordan can tell us through his extensive knowledge of first Scotland East financial prowess as stated in a previous post that they are doing well generally ,I'm not naive enough to think lcb arnt losing money I drive the things every day but Lothian is not intend ing to go any time soon

You will not have long to wait. The 2018 FSE accounts should be available in a few days.

 

[overthewater]

lets be fair here, the changes first are putting in are very minimum, One bus extra on 22, 26 and 27. Three extra buses being used from the Livingston depot, and remember there was reduction back in Summer...

While the extra buses for 38 comes from a different company - Midland Bluebird, however has the grant money finally appeared? thus its being spent on this improvement? I still expect one the change to take place up in Winchburgh.

 

[Driver362]

Sorry I was meaning to pay for the streetlights and 400 mmc

 

[overthewater]

Sorry I was meaning to pay for the streetlights and 400 mmc

If your on about First? Streetlites were paid for 4 1/2 years ago, while the 400MMC was brought with Scottish Government grant money, so there are stuck within the area and wont be going south. Route 27 is now operated by those Jersey darts which are 18 years old and in good nick, so that's one route it doesn't need to worry about.