West Highland Sleeper

[4SRKT]

The Cowlairs North Curve IS red in the latest Baker atlas.

By Cowlairs North Curve I mean the bit allowing running direct from Bishopbriggs to Maryhill, rather than the bit from Springburn to Eastfield, which I've got anyway.

 

[Striker]

By Cowlairs North Curve I mean the bit allowing running direct from Bishopbriggs to Maryhill, rather than the bit from Springburn to Eastfield, which I've got anyway.

Yes, I know. The line from Cowlairs East Junction to Cowlairs North Junction. It's red in the latest Baker Atlas.

 

[4SRKT]

Yes, I know. The line from Cowlairs East Junction to Cowlairs North Junction. It's red in the latest Baker Atlas.

Is it? Well, the atlas is wrong, and sadly that doesn't make it any less required by me

Not that the bit I mentioned should be red anyway (although I think it is in my most recent edition - 11th?), as the down sleeper goes that way.

 

[Striker]

Is it? Well, the atlas is wrong, and sadly that doesn't make it any less required by me

Just looked and it was red in the 10th edition too.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just looked and it was red in the 10th edition too.

I guess as it is only one passenger train per day it is not included as a passenger route.

I haven't got it myself but are the ECML diversion around Doncaster all included as full passenger routes or are some of them Red?

 

[4SRKT]

I guess as it is only one passenger train per day it is not included as a passenger route.

I haven't got it myself but are the ECML diversion around Doncaster all included as full passenger routes or are some of them Red?

They are all red unless they have a scheduled passenger service. Normally the Baker's Bible is very accurate in this respect.

 

[AJP62]

I thought they had to have a passenger service in both directions so these two chords would both be red as they're both one way only?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As a check, what colour is the Stockport to Stalybridge line shown in?

 

[Striker]

As a check, what colour is the Stockport to Stalybridge line shown in?

Red between Stockport and Guide Bridge. Obviously Guide Bridge to Stalybridge has plenty of passenger action as it's the TPE route from Leeds to Man Pic.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes - however this does seem to prove that a limited one direction service rates red in the atlas.

 

[4SRKT]

Yes - however this does seem to prove that a limited one direction service rates red in the atlas.

Anyway.... interesting though the internal conventions of the Baker's Bible may be (or not....), the point is that the line has a passenger service, so it doesn't matter whether it's black, red or diarrhoea brown; I still have to get it!

 

[Track Basher]

I thought they had to have a passenger service in both directions so these two chords would both be red as they're both one way only?

Correct. To be black the line has to have a passenger service in both directions unless the line is single direction only.

Over time the sleeper has taken many of these routes both Central and Queen St LL. I have done both.

 

[amcluesent]

Having done Euston-Helensburgh Upper a few times, the amount of bumping, banging and shunting makes this is a 'sleeper' in name only. Even more stops and shunts would be beyond a joke.

For some reason, coming south is far better. I guess the full train is assembled by 01:00 ish then it's straight run down to Euston for 07:00

 

[Track Basher]

I think dozers would be a better discription.

 

[me123]

Its not to speed up the journey, its to give access to central Glasgow as lets face it, Westerton is hardly central.

I would agree that it makes perfect sense. The train does, in fact, convey passengers from Glasgow-The West Highlands; indeed Scotrail operate an early morning train from Queen Street High Level-Westerton non-stop to connect with the sleeper. (The 156 then runs empty to form the Arrochar and Tarbet commuter service). Similarly, in the evening, a 158 runs from Westerton-Queen Street High Level.

Running the sleeper via the low level would actually be a really good idea. It would allow the sleeper to stop in Glasgow (on a pick-up only Northbound/set-down only Southbound basis, of course) and give the West Highlands another direct service to the city.

In times of disruption/engineering works, you could revert to the existing route and omit the call at Queen Street, with a train (or even a bus) connecting into the sleeper at Westerton.

However, I wouldn't suggest introducing sleeper services to Livingston, or for that matter anywhere else along the route. The Deerstalker is a busy and popular service. If you start to add the flows from the North Clyde and A-B lines into the equation, there would be no way that the train would meet the demand. Besides, with the Airdrie-Bathgate line opening (and when the full timetable comes in), all the communities it serves will have better access than ever to London. Anyway, even if there was room, the calling times at the intermediate stations wouldn't be particularly appealing (compared to, say, alternatives at Motherwell and Edinburgh).

And as for diesels being a problem... well, that may be the case, but I'm sure 156s for the West Highland Line have used the low level before in times of disruption.

 

[rail-britain]

I suspect you've overlooked why the sleeper is now routed via two different routes

In InterCity days it was routed the same way in both directions, via Croy

However, NatEx suggested routing via Cumbernauld and Springburn, so as not to affect the main Edinburgh route in the event of late running
The sleeper can then sit in the line between Springburn and Cowlairs Junction, thus not affecting any other trains, until a route is clear

 

[4SRKT]

I would agree that it makes perfect sense. The train does, in fact, convey passengers from Glasgow-The West Highlands; indeed Scotrail operate an early morning train from Queen Street High Level-Westerton non-stop to connect with the sleeper. (The 156 then runs empty to form the Arrochar and Tarbet commuter service). Similarly, in the evening, a 158 runs from Westerton-Queen Street High Level.

I've been on this 156, and wondered to myself why, since it goes ECS to A&T, it doesn't drop people at Dalmuir instead, and the sleeper cut out the stop at Westerton, which is in any other way a nondescript and not-special SPTE station. In the reverse direction surely timings could be manipulated slightly to allow a connection at Dalmuir into the last EMU into either Central or Queen St LL stations.

Running the sleeper via the low level would actually be a really good idea. It would allow the sleeper to stop in Glasgow (on a pick-up only Northbound/set-down only Southbound basis, of course) and give the West Highlands another direct service to the city.

In times of disruption/engineering works, you could revert to the existing route and omit the call at Queen Street, with a train (or even a bus) connecting into the sleeper at Westerton.

However, I wouldn't suggest introducing sleeper services to Livingston, or for that matter anywhere else along the route. The Deerstalker is a busy and popular service. If you start to add the flows from the North Clyde and A-B lines into the equation, there would be no way that the train would meet the demand. Besides, with the Airdrie-Bathgate line opening (and when the full timetable comes in), all the communities it serves will have better access than ever to London. Anyway, even if there was room, the calling times at the intermediate stations wouldn't be particularly appealing (compared to, say, alternatives at Motherwell and Edinburgh).

I'm not sure. I think the idea of giving a 05:00 Edinburgh > Glasgow working isn't a bad one, and could easily be achieved effectively for nothing by using this working. I wouldn't stop anywhere en route either simply because the stations wouldn't be open, but my add a TSO idea means you would have an additional 62 seats all the way from Edinburgh, which I guess would be less well used between there and Glasgow.

And as for diesels being a problem... well, that may be the case, but I'm sure 156s for the West Highland Line have used the low level before in times of disruption.

Diesels won't be a problem. I've even seen a video of a class 40 down there. It'll be before 6 in the morning, so hardly crowded and it's a skip FFS, not a deltic!

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest when I have got the sleeper from Falkirk normally you only have about 3 people joining. Most prefer to use a normal train to Edinburgh. Not sure if that is the same at stations between Dundee / Perth and Edinburgh. I suspect even if the train stopped at Livingston the majority would probably still change at Edinburgh. Be interesting if passengers from Airdrie will now change at Edinburgh rather than Glasgow.

I prefer to use Edinburgh myself. The walk isn't long between stations in Glasgow but it is not nice if it is raining or lots of drunks are around. At least in Edinburgh it is one station. The downside is the Edinburgh sleeper is typically more expensive and more likely to sell out.

I only use the highland if I need to leave at Crewe or I can't get on the lowland.

 

[Striker]

The walk isn't long between stations in Glasgow but it is not nice if it is raining or lots of drunks are around.

They're called Glaswegians and they won't harm you unless provoked.

 

[dickdarlington]

Another thing. Why do the sleepers go down the WCML? It's a pain (for me for example). Surely it would make sense to send one up the West Coast (say the Lowland) stopping at Preston and Carlisle, and then the other (Hihgland) up the East Coast stopping at York and Newcastle.

For those who wanted to get to different destinations to the train they boarded would of course have to change at Edinburgh. But, it would open up a whole new avenue of passenger flows.

The logistics would be a hurdle to overcome but surely the benefits win through. No one properly sleeps on them anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is back from the days of electrifying the ECML and engineering works, all sleepers were moved to the WCML. They still use the ECML from time to time but need to reverse at Wembley. The platforms are not long enough at Kings Cross

 

[dickdarlington]

It is back from the days of electrifying the ECML and engineering works, all sleepers were moved to the WCML. They still use the ECML from time to time but need to reverse at Wembley. The platforms are not long enough at Kings Cross

Run them from St Pancras then...the track is in place to enable them to do it. If Salmon gets his way, you'll need border control anyway.

 

[Striker]

Run them from St Pancras then...the track is in place to enable them to do it.

Why, when things work perfectly fine from Euston?

 

[dickdarlington]

Why, when things work perfectly fine from Euston?

If you were to run one up the East Coast to target new markets; departing from St Pancras (for the longer platforms) would allow for the existing length train without the issue of reversing at Wembley.

 

[Striker]

If you were to run one up the East Coast to target new markets; departing from St Pancras (for the longer platforms) would allow for the existing length train without the issue of reversing at Wembley.

But I doubt there are any markets waiting to be tapped that would justify all the hassle departing from St Pancras would cause. There will be a relatively low number of people wanting to travel at that time to the north. There's already a train departing King's Cross to Leeds at 2330. Exactly how full is that and why do you think there is a market to places like Leeds and Newcastle at that time of night?

 

[MCR247]

St P- Leicester - Sheffield - Leeds - North would mean diesels would have to be used, and it would take a hell of a lot longer

 

[Failed Unit]

St P- Leicester - Sheffield - Leeds - North would mean diesels would have to be used, and it would take a hell of a lot longer

Not sure about it taking longer, the sleepers are not exactly time for quick running. But I don't think using 67s will be welcome or if they would need to double head (can the manage 16 coaches solo?)

St Pancras dpt 2345
Sheffeild Pass 0200 approx
Leeds 0300 approx
York 0330 approx
Newcastle 0500 approx
Edinburgh 0700 approx

So it would take about the same time, the major problem (which applies when diversion take place as well) the Glasgow portion!

 

[MCR247]

I was talking about the highland portion more which someone said should be moved to St p on it's own

 

[Failed Unit]

The highland could probably still do it. It leaves at about 2130 and needs to be in Edinburgh about 0400. 0630 should be enough for an 80mph train.

 

[amcluesent]

Euston provides via the Virgin lounge facilities such as showers for 1st class sleepers. Is there the same at St Pancras? Def not at EC lounge at KGx.