West Coast Train dispatch methods

[John Webb]

I always assumed those were individual LEDs. How does the actual switchover work, then? Is it mechanical using a sliding mask?

The latest type of these signs do use LEDs, but the ones we have are older models using Fibre Optics. There is a separate light source for each set of fibres and one switches one light source on and the other off to change the sign:


This is the lamp unit for the 'OFF' indicator - the "CD/RA" indicator uses two of these. There is a 12volt 55W car headlamp bulb clipped into a reflector attached to an aluminium housing (the black 'cube'-like object) on the opposite of which is a termination holding the ends of all the fibres. The latter can be seen in cable-like bundles inside the unit.

 

[Horizon22]

Giving the tip to the driver on a red at bat and flag locations is the big one for dispatchers. It isn’t possible to give an RA indication unless the signal is off, because the indicator is interlocked with the signal. The big cock up here is giving RA before CD. The RA indication cannot be cancelled unless the signal is put back to red.

Perhaps it was RA before CD that I've seen then. Driver rightfully stormed out the cab to remonstrate! I've known it to happen a few times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps it was RA before CD that I've seen then. Driver rightfully stormed out the cab to remonstrate! I've known it to happen a few times.

I'm surprised it lets you do that. I suppose there are non-DOO trains but then would the CD not effectively be a signal to the guard?

 

[221129]

I'm surprised it lets you do that. I suppose there are non-DOO trains but then would the CD not effectively be a signal to the guard?

CD is never used with a guard.

 

[LordCreed]

I'm surprised it lets you do that. I suppose there are non-DOO trains but then would the CD not effectively be a signal to the guard?

At Reading 1-3 the RA is used without the CD. The guard will close the doors on recieving the first tip from the dispatcher. Second tip and the guard will join the service and close the local door. A green flag is then shown to the dispatcher who will then press the RA button.

 

[LowLevel]

CD is never used with a guard.

I might be dreaming here but I'm sure a friend told me the LNWR type services at Euston use it for dispatch with a guard. I'll have to ask!

 

[Huntergreed]

I might be dreaming here but I'm sure a friend told me the LNWR type services at Euston use it for dispatch with a guard. I'll have to ask!

That’s entirely correct

 

[221129]

I might be dreaming here but I'm sure a friend told me the LNWR type services at Euston use it for dispatch with a guard. I'll have to ask!

Can't say I have ever noticed that, but happy to be corrected.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm surprised it lets you do that. I suppose there are non-DOO trains but then would the CD not effectively be a signal to the guard?

You definitely can; they are normally two separate buttons on a dispatch panel however RA usually requires a key to prevent accidental misuse/confusion. These are all DOO trains or trains where a guard isn't involved in dispatch until further down the line - say Cannon Street for instance. If a guard is involved, then it would be hand signals / bats / torches between diapatchers and guards, or the usual 2-2 with the driver. Some TOCs have 5+ different dispatch methods dependent on location and stock.

I'm still not absolutely certain you can't give an RA against a red, but my memory is fuzzy here so will happily refer to others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't say I have ever noticed that, but happy to be corrected.

Don't think I have either. Euston seems to use the method outlined above (bat and flag then RA) for guarded trains.

 

[Horizon22]

I might be dreaming here but I'm sure a friend told me the LNWR type services at Euston use it for dispatch with a guard. I'll have to ask!

If the guard isnt involved in dispatch duties until further down the line, then it would just be station-driver diapatch with CD/RA. The same thing happens at Southeastern terminals and no doubt a few others. Obviously station staff are responsible for checking a guard is on board, however there have been a few awkward situations where they haven't and the train gets cancelled when it reaches its first non-DOO stop or skips it...

 

[221129]

You definitely can; they are normally two separate buttons on a dispatch panel however RA usually requires a key to prevent accidental misuse/confusion. These are all DOO trains or trains where a guard isn't involved in dispatch until further down the line - say Cannon Street for instance. If a guard is involved, then it would be hand signals / bats / torches between diapatchers and guards, or the usual 2-2 with the driver. Some TOCs have 5+ different dispatch methods dependent on location and stock.

I'm still not absolutely certain you can't give an RA against a red, but my memory is fuzzy here so will happily refer to others.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could RA against a red on older installations, however in theory they are interlocked, but it's not something I would want to try and find out!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the guard isnt involved in dispatch duties until further down the line, then it would just be station-driver diapatch with CD/RA. The same thing happens at Southeastern terminals and no doubt a few others. Obviously station staff are responsible for checking a guard is on board, however there have been a few awkward situations where they haven't and the train gets cancelled when it reaches its first non-DOO stop or skips it...

All dispatch on LNR services involves the guard. The driver does not operate the doors (release or close) on any LNR service.

(One exception: some drivers release the doors on taking an ECS into Bletchley P5 going into service so people can get on board before the guard arrives, which is usually only a minute or two before departure, but this is increasingly rare so I suspect there has been a crackdown on it)

 

[Horizon22]

All dispatch on LNR services involves the guard. The driver does not operate the doors (release or close) on any LNR service.

(One exception: some drivers release the doors on taking an ECS into Bletchley P5 going into service so people can get on board before the guard arrives, which is usually only a minute or two before departure, but this is increasingly rare so I suspect there has been a crackdown on it)

Then they wouldn't likely be involved with CD then. Depends where the guard is situated in dispatch but if its the rear at say Euston I doubt they'd see the indicators anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

Can't say I have ever noticed that, but happy to be corrected.

This video of a class 350 cab ride from Euston actually shows it clearly in action, surprisingly, so looks like I remembered right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. It isn't used by the guards, and the drivers don't operate the doors - a bat is used to signal to the guard. Is Euston perhaps set up so you can't give RA without giving CD first?

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps it was RA before CD that I've seen then. Driver rightfully stormed out the cab to remonstrate! I've known it to happen a few times.

It may just be me, but I don't think that there's any need to storm out of the cab and remonstrate or that this is the rightful action. All it needs is a stroll back and a friendly chat to agree what happens next.

I'm still not absolutely certain you can't give an RA against a red, but my memory is fuzzy here so will happily refer to others.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could RA against a red on older installations, however in theory they are interlocked, but it's not something I would want to try and find out!

See below.

I've seen this claimed a few times but, having seen it done*, I'm not sure if it's because it's impossible or if no-one has tried it.

* A dispatcher friend of mine showed me, having first checked that there were no trains around to see it, with the difference being that it doesn't remain illuminated when the key is released.

 

[godfreycomplex]

CD/RA is used with LNR services at Euston (and guarded Chiltern services at Marylebone). CD is used in those cases to give the Close Doors signal to the guard rather than dispatch bats or lamps. Avanti (and the sleeper) do not use CD but do use RA. Overground is DOO using CD/RA

 

[Bletchleyite]

CD/RA is used with LNR services at Euston (and guarded Chiltern services at Marylebone). CD is used in those cases to give the Close Doors signal to the guard rather than dispatch bats or lamps.

Is that a recent change, then? I've always seen the signal given to LNR guards using a bat.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Is that a recent change, then? I've always seen the signal given to LNR guards using a bat.

As long as I can remember. Bats are used to signal between dispatchers but CD is used to the guard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as I can remember. Bats are used to signal between dispatchers but CD is used to the guard.

I'll watch more carefully next time then