West Coast Railways Suspended (now reinstated)

[D1009]

Well I for one had missed the news about the West Coast Railways licence suspension being lifted on Friday 8 May. (That will teach me to watch the election coverage on the TV!) until I read this article so maybe not such old news after all....

Apologies, I didn't read the article beyond the headline and the first few paragraphs, and I was disappointed given the resources of the BBC that they failed to find a photograph of the actual locomotive involved to illustrate the article.

 

[infobleep]

Does anyone know how many people were on the steam train. The express was estimated to have 300-400 according to the BBC.

 

[Mark62]

There is a marvellous leader in this months rail illustrated mag about this whole subject and the appalling safety record and management contempt for the rules.
The main question is why the driver and fireman took the action they did.

 

[theironroad]

Until the full RAIB report is issued, the rest is speculation.

It seems WCr didn't have the best relationship with the rail media, so I'd take a big pinch of salt with what I read there.

Raib normally get down to the nitty gritty, let's just hope it doesn't 12 months or more......

 

[edwin_m]

There is a marvellous leader in this months rail illustrated mag about this whole subject and the appalling safety record and management contempt for the rules.
The main question is why the driver and fireman took the action they did.

No, the main question is why the company's safety processes were inadequate. A crew can do something wrong regardless of who they work for, as was seen in the reset-and-go incident on Great Northern. What counts is what the company does to deal with it and reduce the chances of recurrence.

As with the Great Northern incident and the Merseyrail guard, there may be considered to be grounds for prosecution here. That would almost certainly delay the RAIB report, though any recommendations are likely to be passed on confidentially to train operators in the meantime.

 

[E&W Lucas]

No, the main question is why the company's safety processes were inadequate. A crew can do something wrong regardless of who they work for, as was seen in the reset-and-go incident on Great Northern. What counts is what the company does to deal with it and reduce the chances of recurrence.

As with the Great Northern incident and the Merseyrail guard, there may be considered to be grounds for prosecution here. That would almost certainly delay the RAIB report, though any recommendations are likely to be passed on confidentially to train operators in the meantime.

There's already been guidance issued to other operators of mainline steam traction, to make it harder to take the actions of the Wooton Basset crew.

WCR have clearly worked hard behind the scenes. I note the NR letter refers to the use of their "more experienced" crews, so it will be interesting to see what implications that has for who they have working for them in future. Let's hope it's a new beginning.
Onwards and upwards.

 

[CosherB]

http://railwayherald.com/uknews/orr-issues-improvement-notice-to-wcrc

Hmmmmmm ......

 

[Tracky]

Surprised to see the guard on today's trip to llandudno.

A Chiltern man with SVR stock/traction knowledge in no doubt but route knowledge - I really do wonder.......

 

[ilkestonian]

Surprised to see the guard on today's trip to llandudno.

A Chiltern man with SVR stock/traction knowledge in no doubt but route knowledge - I really do wonder.......

I very much doubt WCRC would do anything dodgy given the close ORR supervision they are under. I read that an ORR inspector was on this service.

 

[sbt]

Yesterdays 'Golden Arrow' ran under Diesel traction rather than the expected steam traction, 'Clan Line'. For some reason WCRC withdrew permission, with around 24 hours to go, for it to haul the two carriages in the train that they owned (the loco was provided through DBS). This was a long standing arrangement and there are lots of very unhappy people and organisations, including the volunteers from the group owning Clan Line who had given up their time and travelled long distances to prep the locomotive and steward the train - which they still did.

No reason for the decision has been made public. There are lots of speculative 'legitimate' reasons being advanced to let WCRC off the hook but it gives the impression of a company that is (still) poorly organised. 'Informed sources', who have usually been proved correct in regard to this saga, are saying the action was taken after a short notice personal intervention from the owner of WCRC.

 

[Tracky]

So they wouldn't allow their two coaches to be hauled by a steam loco operated by DB but did allow their two coaches to be hauled by a diesel loco operated and owned by DB.

 

[455driver]

Surprised to see the guard on today's trip to llandudno.

A Chiltern man with SVR stock/traction knowledge in no doubt but route knowledge - I really do wonder.......

So what are you insinuating?

 

[sbt]

So they wouldn't allow their two coaches to be hauled by a steam loco operated by DB but did allow their two coaches to be hauled by a diesel loco operated and owned by DB.

Correct. With the diesel loco crewed by the same crew that would have been on the footplate of the steam loco and the coaches stewarded by exactly the same people who would have been there if the steam loco had been.

 

[LowLevel]

So what are you insinuating?

I've certainly wondered how charter guards amass their considerable route knowledge in the past, particularly those that work full time elsewhere. A 150 odd mile route takes 3 full weeks of full time work to road learn at my TOC and yet these guys seem to zoom off to different places every week. I'd be interested to learn how they manage to achieve it! I sign probably 400-500 miles of railway overall and it took me about 9-10 weeks working full time to road learn it - and bar some diversions I work over it all regularly to keep current.

 

[Tracky]

So what are you insinuating?

I wonder how WCR guards maintain route knowledge when 'working' trains over routes they don't normally work over. How many journeys over a route is a WCR guard required to complete to 'learn' that route and how many journeys over a route and how frequently are they required to make them to remain refreshed.

I believe in the role of the guard at a time when passenger TOCs are trying very hard to devalue it. Route knowledge is one of the greatest assets when dealing with situations which occur.

 

[mbonwick]

Correct. With the diesel loco crewed by the same crew that would have been on the footplate of the steam loco and the coaches stewarded by exactly the same people who would have been there if the steam loco had been.

That's assuming it was WCRCs decision and not the ORRs etc...I'm quite sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I was a guard for a short time but had to get out as:

1) I didn't want to do tickets
2) The route was going DOO.

I have no resentment about this though.

Also im quite happy to have a guard on my train as a lot of them are decent people and very professional in the role.

 

[Tracky]

I don't like WCR.

I don't see the way they work as in any way profesional.

I don't belive their drivers and guards operating in the way they do (outside of the west highland line maybe) as doing any favours for the need to fight to retain guard and driver standards with regular operators.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've deleted some off-topic posts and edited a few others. If you see problem posts please report (

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There were few comments from several members that fell foul of that rule. Please in future try and be nice to each other

 

[martynbristow]

I don't like WCR.

I don't see the way they work as in any way profesional.

I don't belive their drivers and guards operating in the way they do (outside of the west highland line maybe) as doing any favours for the need to fight to retain guard and driver standards with regular operators.

You may have issues with the way certain things have gone, but lets look at the positives.
WCR run a large number of charters successfully generally without incident. With some reform from the front they could be a very good operator.
It will be some employees not being careless.

 

[adsteamfan]

I don't like WCR.

I don't see the way they work as in any way profesional.

I don't belive their drivers and guards operating in the way they do (outside of the west highland line maybe) as doing any favours for the need to fight to retain guard and driver standards with regular operators.

You seem to be forgetting that WCRC trains are excursions and not normal timetabled public services. Tickets are not available on the train, the train does not stop at stations except to pick-up or set down passengers who have already paid for the tour or for operational reasons (water stops/ crew change-over/loco change-over etc) so how are they undermining guards?
I have been fortunate to spend many hours in the company of these people and can vouch for their route knowledge. Most of them started their careers in BR days and have been working the tours for many years. Remember, most tours travel over the same routes and the crews are rostered according to their knowledge.
I get really annoyed at the number of people who seem to think that they know what goes on at West Coast and try to undermine them. A lot of the drivers and staff work for other TOCs / FOCs too, so if you travel by train, your driver / guard could be one of these who are being referred to as 'unprofessional'.

 

[sbt]

You may have issues with the way certain things have gone, but lets look at the positives.
WCR run a large number of charters successfully generally without incident. With some reform from the front they could be a very good operator.
It will be some employees not being careless.

Unfortunately for your hypothesis regarding reform at the front line the ORR Improvement Notice insists on reform at the management level.

And with the latest event if it was WCRC employees 'not being careless', which not what those who have their finger on the pulse of such things are saying, they chose to do so at very much the last moment, within 18 hours of an 06:30 departure and with no explanation to the passengers, volunteers and staff involved. BTW no WCRC staff were involved in the operation of the excursion. If there is a good safety or regulatory reason for halting the use of Clan Line it smacks of carelessness to only notice or act on it at so late as stage that passengers only found out after office hours had finished.

I have no particular beef with WCRC, I had not heard of them until I read the Tangmere RAIB report. But what I have seen regarding them says that they are a company in major trouble, no matter how successful they have been in the past. Bear in mind that they were undergoing an audit of their Safety Management System due to concerns about their operations and had been banned from a section of the network prior to the SPAD that triggered the suspension. They may have had no major accidents but people were concerned about the way they operated for some time prior to this.

This latest incident looks plain unprofessional and, I gather, has eaten up a lot of the remaining goodwill they had with the other organisations that have been softening the blow consequential on the suspension of their licence and the subsequent Improvement Notice. Its in no way the end for them but it won't help their case.

PS: I have no doubt that the majority of their front line staff are professional, good at what they do and trying to do their best. What I have seen, however, does not fill me with confidence regarding the way they operate at the top level. I am sure they are changing - they will have to to remain in existence - but the latest incident IS unprofessional from a managerial point of view.

 

[ilkestonian]

What puzzles me about this whole episode is how and why WCRC actually managed to veto the use of Clan Line.

If none of their staff were involved, nor their locos, on what grounds were they able to say that Clan Line must withdraw? Why couldn't DBS and the loco owners just ignore any noise from Carnforth as being irrelevant?

As I see it, the only issue was that there were two WCRC owned carriages in the train, for which all the paperwork was in order, and presumably contracts were in place (must be or surely the 67 couldn't have hauled them).

It makes little sense to me, unless there is something significant which is not yet in the public domain.

 

[edwin_m]

What puzzles me about this whole episode is how and why WCRC actually managed to veto the use of Clan Line.

If none of their staff were involved, nor their locos, on what grounds were they able to say that Clan Line must withdraw? Why couldn't DBS and the loco owners just ignore any noise from Carnforth as being irrelevant?

As I see it, the only issue was that there were two WCRC owned carriages in the train, for which all the paperwork was in order, and presumably contracts were in place (must be or surely the 67 couldn't have hauled them).

It makes little sense to me, unless there is something significant which is not yet in the public domain.

It may just be (I don't have any evidence one way or the other) that the wording of their Safety Management System didn't cover that particular situation, and there wasn't enough time after whenever they realised this to get it changed. With ORR breathing down their necks the last thing they want is to be in breach of their own SMS even though it's difficult to see that particular situation resulting in any safety hazard.

 

[ilkestonian]

It may just be (I don't have any evidence one way or the other) that the wording of their Safety Management System didn't cover that particular situation, and there wasn't enough time after whenever they realised this to get it changed. With ORR breathing down their necks the last thing they want is to be in breach of their own SMS even though it's difficult to see that particular situation resulting in any safety hazard.

I take your point, but surely the whole point of DBS running this was that it would be under their SMS?

It's a strange one, alright.

 

[edwin_m]

I take your point, but surely the whole point of DBS running this was that it would be under their SMS?

It's a strange one, alright.

May still have to invoke bits of the WCR SMS to use their rolling stock.

 

[sbt]

May still have to invoke bits of the WCR SMS to use their rolling stock.

The key thing is why notice that so late? You can invent or speculate on any number of reasons but why so late and why no explanation?

This arrangement had been in place for months. Then they withdraw permission just as offices were closing on the evening before departure.

Remember that this cost the passengers real money and stewards, loco support crew etc. were volunteers who were paying their own way to be there.

People can invent reasons for the decision that get WCRC 'off the hook' but none of them will alter the timing or the lack of explanation or apology.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Just read the editorial of the latest rail magazine. Whilst I agree with the general tone of the article, it's a shame that it is such a muddle technically. A failure to inderstand the sequence of events too. Surely Rail have the contacts who can explain things properly?

 

[alexl92]

Has any form of official report been released yet? Do we know why the AWS or TPWS or whatever was 'disabled'?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Has any form of official report been released yet? Do we know why the AWS or TPWS or whatever was 'disabled'?

Why - the "driver" was trying to hide the fact that he had failed to cancel an AWS warning (for a TSR), and prevent the train being brought to a stand as a result. That much is obvious.
Why on earth he did it, (it's a sacking offence) who knows?
The "what and how" are clearly understood, as other operators of mainline steam, have been told to make modifications as necessary to prevent a recurrence.