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West Coast Pendolino & Voyager retractioning?

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absolutelymilk

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The winners of the new West Coast Partnership are unlikely to announce any new stock, given that HS2 will not be too far away and obtaining such a small order of tilting stock would be extremely expensive.

However, would it be possible for them to significantly upgrade the Pendolinos and Voyagers by retractioning them? How much of a boost would this give to acceleration (and thus journey times)?
 
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jharr

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Since both are already multiple units I would doubt there would be enough benefits to such a plan to justify the (considerable) cost.
 

Bletchleyite

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An interior refurbishment would be a good choice, but there's nothing wrong with the traction package of either unit, they are both modern AC drives.

We might see a resurgence of the Voyager bi-mode project, though.
 

47802

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An interior refurbishment would be a good choice, but there's nothing wrong with the traction package of either unit, they are both modern AC drives.

We might see a resurgence of the Voyager bi-mode project, though.

Why the voyagers are already half life, we already have a bi-mode intercity train, I would expect that project is well and truly buried expect in the minds of some people on here.
 

absolutelymilk

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What problem would retractioning solve?
Since both are already multiple units I would doubt there would be enough benefits to such a plan to justify the (considerable) cost.
That was my question, would the cost of any retractioning be worth the journey time savings/possible better reliability if the units could make up time?
 

Rail Blues

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What journey time savings do you think you could save and how? In what ways are the current traction packages not fit for purpose?

The wobble on this site ...
 

xc170

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Because the Voyagers and Pendolinos are renowned for their poor acceleration...
 

GW43125

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Because the Voyagers and Pendolinos are renowned for their poor acceleration...

"Poor acceleration" they bloody fly when you compare them to an 87+mk2s; 8000hp for 570 tonnes vs 5000hp for up to 5-600 tonnes.
 
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bastien

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They dialled back the acceleration on the Voyagers, didn't they? 750hp per car is quite a lot.
 

driver_m

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Only slow compared to a 350 which goes like the brown stuff off a shovel. Both tractions are pretty good at getting off the mark and a 10 car voyager in particular has a lot of grunt.
 

GW43125

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Only slow compared to a 350 which goes like the brown stuff off a shovel. Both tractions are pretty good at getting off the mark and a 10 car voyager in particular has a lot of grunt.

I felt the 390s go like the proverbial off a shovel though.
 

driver_m

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I felt the 390s go like the proverbial off a shovel though.

You want to see a 350 go. I can't keep a 390 with one initially. I've left at virtually the same time from Crewe with one on the slows and I've got half way to Stafford by the time I've got past it, and I don't consider myself a slouch by any means.
 

absolutelymilk

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Fair enough, I guess when the 397s come in we can look at that and see how much acceleration has improved for 125mph EMUs in the past 15 years!
 

GW43125

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You want to see a 350 go. I can't keep a 390 with one initially. I've left at virtually the same time from Crewe with one on the slows and I've got half way to Stafford by the time I've got past it, and I don't consider myself a slouch by any means.

That's fair enough, though it surprises me as the 390s have a higher power-to-weight ratio than 350s!
 

SpacePhoenix

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How much difference is there in the construction of the bogies on the 390s between those with motors and those without motors?
 

43074

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The winners of the new West Coast Partnership are unlikely to announce any new stock, given that HS2 will not be too far away and obtaining such a small order of tilting stock would be extremely expensive.

However, would it be possible for them to significantly upgrade the Pendolinos and Voyagers by retractioning them? How much of a boost would this give to acceleration (and thus journey times)?

Well I wouldn't be surprised if they were to replace the Voyagers with something bi-mode, replacing them with electrics was in most of the 2012 franchise bids so 5 years on there's no reason why their replacement is not completely off the table here. There's nothing wrong with the acceleration of either fleet: that's partly why they're so expensive to run, because comparatively speaking they're very heavy so it takes a significant amount of energy to allow them to do this.

Although HS2 is only 9 years away there will still be a need for conventional high speed stock (potentially both diesel and electric) for things like Chester to Euston, and to maintain links like Milton Keynes to Manchester, so I wouldn't put too much money on there being *no* new stock whatsoever. The bidders will be trying to impress DfT as much as possible, and the quality scores by which bids are assessed mean new stock is an attractive way of bumping the scores up, making both Ministers and TOC look good, even if only for 9 years (which was not unusual for frontline InterCity stock in BR days anyway, e.g. in 20 years most ECML services went from being run by assorted locos and MkIIs to 91s and Mk4s, with the MkIId/e/f vehicles being replaced by HSTs after only a decade...)
 

superkev

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Acceleration is a lot to do with gearing. I believe the paddedcellinos are geared for the original design speed of 140mph.
K
 

Bald Rick

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The winners of the new West Coast Partnership are unlikely to announce any new stock, given that HS2 will not be too far away and obtaining such a small order of tilting stock would be extremely expensive.

However, would it be possible for them to significantly upgrade the Pendolinos and Voyagers by retractioning them? How much of a boost would this give to acceleration (and thus journey times)?

The Pendolinos already have the most modern form of traction equipment. Note that almost all other retractioning on electric stock has been to remove maintenance heavy DC camshaft equipment, or to replace first generation AC traction equipment with more modern kit. None of it increases the power to the traction motors.
 

driver_m

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Don't know this myself, but how long are the two tractions on official lease to west coast for? It could be that the leaser may want to send them elsewhere like has happened in the past with tpe's 170s.
 

xc170

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"Poor acceleration" they bloody fly when you compare them to an 87+mk2s; 8000hp for 570 tonnes vs 5000hp for up to 5-600 tonnes.

Do you just make up rubbish like that for a response?

My attempt at sarcasm failed on this occasion.

My point was that they fly, retractioning would be a huge waste of money..
 

Bletchleyite

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You want to see a 350 go. I can't keep a 390 with one initially. I've left at virtually the same time from Crewe with one on the slows and I've got half way to Stafford by the time I've got past it, and I don't consider myself a slouch by any means.

Isn't that why the 110mph top speed (originally 100mph I think) of the TPE units wasn't considered an issue? They gain back in acceleration what they lose in top speed.

FWIW, a Mk3 set only lost I think 3 minutes between Euston and MKC over a Pendolino (timed at 30 mins, Pretendolino tended to take 33).
 

Bald Rick

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FWIW, a Mk3 set only lost I think 3 minutes between Euston and MKC over a Pendolino (timed at 30 mins, Pretendolino tended to take 33).

That's maths for you. Very approximately.... the EPS for Pendolinos goes above 110mph at around the 6 milepost, which means there are 43 miles at 125 vs 110. The difference between 110 and 125 is 3.9 sec per mile. 3.9 x 43 = 167 sec.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Well I wouldn't be surprised if they were to replace the Voyagers with something bi-mode, replacing them with electrics was in most of the 2012 franchise bids so 5 years on there's no reason why their replacement is not completely off the table here. There's nothing wrong with the acceleration of either fleet: that's partly why they're so expensive to run, because comparatively speaking they're very heavy so it takes a significant amount of energy to allow them to do this.
Although HS2 is only 9 years away there will still be a need for conventional high speed stock (potentially both diesel and electric) for things like Chester to Euston, and to maintain links like Milton Keynes to Manchester, so I wouldn't put too much money on there being *no* new stock whatsoever.

Several conundrums there.
There's no obvious bi-mode solution for the WCML Voyagers, as AT300s don't tilt.
A small fleet of new Pendolinos (new Alstom design for UK) would be very expensive.
TPE (First) and Alliance (DB) have already baulked at the prospect of buying any of these for the WCML.
However DfT is not going to do anything which reduces capacity on the WCML before HS2 comes in.
The ITT due any time should give us some hints about the future WCML spec.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I've heard suggestions that the North Wales Coast would remain served via the classic WCML. They might shout, but possibly could be bought off by going hourly to Holyhead.
 
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