West Coast franchise timetable - what would you do?

[Whistler40145]

What the Holyhead service would have benefited from would have been a train which is part SuperVoyager & Pendolino, whereby it could run off the 25kV from Euston to Crewe & continue on Diesel. I know the controls in the cab would require modification to include Pan Up/Down buttons, but I know this won't happen!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You mean bi-mode?

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes, I do mean bio-mode, but with Class 57s around, I expect it won't ever happen.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'd run two services to Glasgow, one slow and another fast.

Slow service calls: Milton Keynes, Tamworth, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow.

Fast service calls: Milton Keynes, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow.

Liverpool passengers can either travel on the direct Liverpool service or use the slow Glasgow service and change at Crewe.

2tph from Mk - Glasgow is excessive in my opinion, but like Peterborough on the East Coast hard to balance. If you have 2tph fast to Preston to get Glasgow close to 4 hours is a must. Just like on the East coast fast to York is good.

Mk should also have hourly to Manchester and maybe Liverpool.

I wonder on east coast if Peterborough would be so upset if you had.

A: York, Newcastle, Edinburgh.
B: stevenage, peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh.

 

[Mr Spock]

2tph from Mk - Glasgow is excessive in my opinion, but like Peterborough on the East Coast hard to balance. If you have 2tph fast to Preston to get Glasgow close to 4 hours is a must. Just like on the East coast fast to York is good.

Mk should also have hourly to Manchester and maybe Liverpool.
.

MK already has an hourly service to Manchester, do not understand why it should also get a Glasgow and Liverpool service as well after all we are told that the good people of MK want to commute to London not go north.

I would agree that if there are 2 trains to Glasgow then one should be at least first stop Preston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd run two services to Glasgow, one slow and another fast.

Slow service calls: Milton Keynes, Tamworth, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow.

Fast service calls: Milton Keynes, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow.

Liverpool passengers can either travel on the direct Liverpool service or use the slow Glasgow service and change at Crewe.

I see everything still revolves round Mk but never mind. With regards to your slow option I would think that a stop at Nuneaton (or even dare I say Rugby) would be better than one at Tamworth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don’t want Rugby, particularly, to loose services. I just think that with MK growing there will be a demand for more services. If there is AND virgin want to keep journey times down somewhere will loose out. I chose Rugby simply because it is quite close to MK and has good LM links. It could of course be Stafford or Warrington or Penrith or Lockerbie or Motherwell that lost services .

The lack of capacity argument could be solved in Virgin were allowed to run the 11 car trains. You could put them on the existing pick up only services out of Euston in the peak and not impact on the timetable or services to other towns.

The LM services are quite crowded around the peak into and out of London. The fast Northampton services are the worst.

I keep explaining that Virgin want to run services from the north and midlands to London as fast as possible. If you stopped more trains at Mk I am sure you would lose more time there than you would gain from not stopping at other stations

In point 2 I presume you mean that by running 11 car pendolinos there would be sufficient extra capacity for MK passengers thus taking out the pu only reference - not 100% sure my reading of the statement is correct.

Some LM services are crowded but from the ones I have travelled on they are not an extreme situation. If more of these trains are increased to 12 coaches that will presumably make plenty of room available for MK passengers.

 

[Zoe]

I would think that a stop at Nuneaton (or even dare I say Rugby) would be better than one at Tamworth.

See Failed Unit's comments above on why it could be a good idea to stop at Tamworth. It would also allow passengers from the South West of England to Scotland to avoid having to change at Birmingham New Street. I can't see how a stop at Rugby would be more useful. Nuneaton would also get an intercity service though as I'd have the Liverpool service stop there.

 

[Mr Spock]

See Failed Unit's comments above on why it could be a good idea to stop at Tamworth. It would also allow passengers from the South West of England to Scotland to avoid having to change at Birmingham New Street. I can't see how a stop at Rugby would be more useful. Nuneaton would also get an intercity service though as I'd have the Liverpool service stop there.

There is a service form the South West to Scotland already - it is run by XC although I will admit most of the trains are voyagers.

Rugby would be more useful as that is my local station

There was recently a major overhaul of the West Coast franchise train service and many stops were taken out to increase end to end speeds and now all we are doing is trying to put those stops back again. Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen until HS2 is completed (if it ever is).

I keep hearing about a 4th London-Manchester service and if this goes ahead do you think it should be given to an Open Access operator to see what they could do?

 

[tbtc]

221s also come in handy for the odd rescue duty, or for when servies need to be diverted - for example the Blockade Busters via High Wycombe, London to Brum via Nuneaton, or diversions on the Settle and Carlisle.

XC need increased capacity on almost every daytime Voyager service which they run, seven days a week, fifty two weeks a year.

(After the Chester line is electrified) Virgin will need diesel haulage on a handful of weekends (generally with plenty advance notice, allowing them to hire in additional freight locos to haul Pendolini to drag them)

I know which TOC I'd give *all* Voyagers to.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Read in the latest issue of RAIL that Network Rail want an hourly Euston to Glasgow service of 3 hr 45 mins with stops at Preston (and Carlisle ?). Not sure how they can speed up the service on the current best timings of 4 h 10 or so.

But an hourly sub 4 hr timing is worth going for. There are 16 or so BA flights per day between London and Glasgow, so there must be some scope for getting more passenger to switch from air to rail.

 

[Lampshade]

Read in the latest issue of RAIL that Network Rail want an hourly Euston to Glasgow service of 3 hr 45 mins with stops at Preston (and Carlisle ?). Not sure how they can speed up the service on the current best timings of 4 h 10 or so.

I don't doubt Euston - Glasgow is possible in 3h45, it's an average of 107mph. How much of the present timing is recovery time though?

 

[shinkansen1966]

I don't doubt Euston - Glasgow is possible in 3h45, it's an average of 107mph. How much of the present timing is recovery time though?

That's what I thought.

With a Preston and Carlisle call only, wonder if 3h55 is just possible with a tweak here and a minor speed upgrade there. Would look good in an advertising campaign. Get those passengers off the airlines.

 

[LE Greys]

That's what I thought.

With a Preston and Carlisle call only, wonder if 3h55 is just possible with a tweak here and a minor speed upgrade there. Would look good in an advertising campaign. Get those passengers off the airlines.

It's possible, but only with 140 mph running. I was on the 3hr 55 non-stop run, and that only made it through special arrangements and careful planning, plus good driving. 4hr dead is just about possible with one stop, but anything tighter than that needs 140 running.

3hr 30, as done on the ECML with 140 running, is a really tough one.

 

[cle]

I think that with the Bletchley and Stafford works, a couple of minutes could be shaved off. I would try to raise the linespeed through Crewe if possible, so that non-stops could go through at 125mph.

And if they sacrificed some recovery time, the magic 3h59 might be possible. Some tweaks in the Lakes might be able to increase EPS speeds by 5-10mph here or there, which is where the journey suffers.

BMI have left Glasgow now which is a big loss to the city - they filled a gap in the market between Easyjet and BA. BA are increasing GLA flights now... I'm taking the train return next week, so will report! It's a big captive market which needs more awareness about the train, and the fares could be better!

Note also that frequent business travellers who are in Virgin Flying Club who would have earned miles flying BMI can still earn miles now on the train, through booking on Virgin Trains website. They should target this. Extending it to BMI Diamond Club members might be a decent idea.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think that with the Bletchley and Stafford works, a couple of minutes could be shaved off.

Why? EPS through Bletchley is 125mph. Stafford is 110, so maybe 30 secs or so could be shaved off!

 

[cle]

I didn't mean through there, but at Colwich for example. Bletchley I thought was fast but aren't there some line speed improvements in the signalling work?

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn't mean through there, but at Colwich for example. Bletchley I thought was fast but aren't there some line speed improvements in the signalling work?

I am not sure - unless the slows are to be improved. On the fasts it's 125mph, definitely.

 

[Zoe]

I didn't mean through there, but at Colwich for example.

Colwich is actually now slower for trains from the Down Fast to Stafford. Before the upgrade the Down Fast was where the Down Slow is now.

 

[Arriva 175]

That is an idea, but I would be uncomfortable (and I don't know why) about Warrington losing direct trains (on a half-hourly basis) to Wigan, Preston, the Lakes, Carlisle and Scotland. It is a pain trying to decide which is more important - relieving Anglo-Scottish overcrowding, or giving Liverpool a second service. As with many things of this nature, there is no easy answer.

The Birmingham to Scotland service would still provide Warrington with an Anglo Scottish service, perhaps a Blackpool service could be added also but then there are only so many Pendolinos to go round.
Maybe a growth order is needed. A fleet of mini Pendolinos for Birmingham-Scotland/London to Chester/Blackpool/etc.
These could be part of the new franchise requirement.

 

[Whistler40145]

So, are we saying a Glasgow to Euston service no longer needs or warrants a stop at Crewe?

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder how people would fell about an irregular stopping pattern such as.

Every Hour
0000 London, Stoke-on-Trent, Manchester Piccadilly, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow
0012 London, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury
0015 London, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Blackpool North / Portion to Holyhead
0027 London, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket, Edinburgh
0030 London, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow
0042 London, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street,
0045 London, Stafford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket, Edinburgh,
0057 London, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stoke-On-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.

Then on various hours
Hour 1.
0003 London, Watford, Nuneaton, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
0018 London, Milton Keynes, Tamworth, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
0033 London, Rugby, Lichfield TV, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
0048 London, Watford, Nuneaton, Crewe, Wimslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.
Hour 2
0103 London, Milton Keynes, Tamworth, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
0118 London, Rugby, Lichfield TV Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
0133 London, Watford, Nuneaton,, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
0148 London, Milton Keynes, Tamworth,, Crewe, Wimslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.
Hour 3.
0203 London, Rugby, Lichfield TV, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
0218 London, Watford, Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
0233 London, Milton Keynes, Tamworth, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street
0248 London, Rugby, Lichfield TV, Crewe, Wimslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly.

Also,
Birmingam New Street, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow

Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Bolton, Chorley, Preston, Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle, Haymarket, Edinburgh.

Probably never, ever get enough demand for 12 trains per hour from London however!

 

[Mr Spock]

Interesting timetable in theory but I would think totally impractical as all services along the West Coast corridor would need to be recast because of all the different routes.

Would not like to be the person who would have to work it all out.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yep, planning a timetable is easy in your armchair when you don't need to worry about the real world!

 

[Whistler40145]

In the future, could Pendolinos be passed for Manchester Airport, either in full or shortened formation?

In time, if they were, they could be used on a Manchester Airport-Glasgow/Edinburgh service & a Manchester Airport-London Euston via Wilmslow & Crewe.

 

[cle]

In the future, could Pendolinos be passed for Manchester Airport, either in full or shortened formation?

In time, if they were, they could be used on a Manchester Airport-Glasgow/Edinburgh service & a Manchester Airport-London Euston via Wilmslow & Crewe.

I think shortened Pendos have to happen - for the sake of Chester, Blackpool/Lancasters and route such as this and the Birmingham ones too.

Birmingham/Manchester could use them also. They'd need to fit in Oxford Road though.

I'm not 100% sure there's any market between London and MAN Airport - I would suggest a Birmingham - Man Airport via Wolves, Stafford, Crewe and Wilmslow might attract more people flying from Manchester.

 

[Zoe]

I wonder how people would fell about an irregular stopping pattern such as.

I'd quite like to see a Tamworth call on at least some services to Glasgow for reasons discussed above. This would have to be made though by an additional Glasgow service so the current journey time would not be slower. Would be good if you could fit in my Milton Keynes - Tamworth - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme - Penrith - Carlisle - Lockerbie - Motherwell - Glasgow service somewhere even if it can't run every hour.

 

[Mr Spock]

I'd quite like to see a Tamworth call on at least some services to Glasgow for reasons discussed above. This would have to be made though by an additional Glasgow service so the current journey time would not be slower. Would be good if you could fit in my Milton Keynes - Tamworth - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme - Penrith - Carlisle - Lockerbie - Motherwell - Glasgow service somewhere even if it can't run every hour.

Still not convinced about Tamworth, it never had a regular IC service and the suggestion about Nottingham passengers from London changing there seems a bit bizarre to me as they get direct services already.

Same as people on XC services changing there to get to Scotland when they have a direct service from the west country already.

As I said previously if there is a Trent valley stop on a Glasgow it should be Nuneaton.

Still it does not matter what I or anybody else on here would like as I think there will be little change from current stopping patterns south of Crewe.

 

[Zoe]

Still not convinced about Tamworth, it never had a regular IC service

Yes it did, it wansn't hourly but it was more than just the odd call here and there. Calling at Nuneaton wouldn't give much benefit over calling at Tamworth.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree regarding Tamworth.

Who on this planet would want to travel West from Nottingham for a London connection if a direct service exists?

I would have 1tph stopping @ Stafford, Nuneaton & Rugby, with Lichfield & Tamworth having a more limited service.

Glasgow-Euston need to be the limited stop services, so they would only stop @ Motherwell, Carlisle, Preston & Rugby or Milton Keynes.

I would use the paths of Glasgow/Edinburgh-Birmingham services for an extended Wolverhampton-Euston service, this would call @ Motherwell (Glasgow only), Lockerbie, Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Crewe & Stafford.

 

[Zoe]

I would have 1tph stopping @ Stafford, Nuneaton & Rugby, with Lichfield & Tamworth having a more limited service.

Lichfield I can understand but what makes Stafford and Nuneaton more important than Tamworth?

 

[cle]

Can't Nuneaton and Tamworth be balanced out like Watford and MK were in the good old days, alternating hourly? I would say on the Liverpool service.

Lichfield is fine with service as it is today.