West Coast Franchise speculation

[Mathew S]

I am quite surprised to see so many defending the Voyagers they do tend to have quite a bad name among train lovers

As a 'train lover' they are a bit grim. However, as someone who travels up and down the WCML on a horribly regular basis, I quite like them from a passenger point of view. They're lighter and airier than the 390s, and they seem to have lasted somewhat better than them as well; some of the Pendolinos are very noisy and rickety these days, by comparison with how they were new.

 

[pt_mad]

I do find it hard to believe the seats are the same size on a Voyager as a Pendolino? Can this be backed up with the measurements?

Alstom and Bombardier are two separate manufacturers so how would, just by chance, their own types of seat be exactly the same size? Pendos definitely seem to be larger seats to me.

 

[Carlisle]

Alstom and Bombardier are two separate manufacturers so how would, just by chance, their own types of seat be exactly the same size?

Maybe Virgin chose to specify basically the same seat type on both trains .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe Virgin chose to specify basically the same seat type on both trains .

This is indeed the reason, the seats are identical other than the Pendolino not having a window side armrest. The specification was for a basically identical interior between the two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alstom and Bombardier are two separate manufacturers so how would, just by chance, their own types of seat be exactly the same size? Pendos definitely seem to be larger seats to me.

They're exactly the same seats barring the window side armrest (and are exactly the same in 1st until the recent Voyager cushion and cover changes). Seats are purchased from a third party, and different train builders can purchase from the same manufacturer, particularly if the purchaser tells them to. Consider, for example, that Fainsa "ironing boards" are fitted to Hitachi, Siemens and Bombardier trains.

 

[driver_m]

They're not a bad train. The stink thing is a bad cliche. There is a very good reason why there's constantly a cheesy voiceover telling you not to put stuff down the bog that's not meant to go down there. . They do a pretty good job for VT Everyone knows they shouldn't be on the West Coast on entirely wired runs but they don't have a surplus of other trains to limit them to unwired services. They're not a rough riding train by any means, there's a lot of things that don't get mentioned on here, how many times have they been responsible for bad failures? They've probably helped out far more times when the AC stuff has come to grief.

 

[mmh]

The Voyager is narrower inside though. I believe the seats are narrower as well due to less width of carriage. And the toilets smell worse than Pendolinos. And obviously they vibrate quite a lot but nowt much can be done about that.

They're the same width, 2.73m

Pendolino: https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/High-Speed-Trains/30
Voyager: https://www.bombardier.com/en/trans...r-voyager-united-kingdom.html?f-region=europe

I'd be amazed if the seats weren't identical other than one thing - Voyager window seats have an arm rest on the window side, Pendolino window seats don't - there's a ridge in the side wall instead (I find using the window ledge more comfortable if I'm lucky enough to have enough of a window to use it). So the seating in Voyagers is actually wider.

In years of using Voyagers I don't recall ever smelling toilet smells unless I was inside one despite having read how awful they stink for all of those years (admittedly Virgin Voyagers, I can count the number of times I've used CrossCountry on one hand)

The average passenger genuinely doesn't mind them at all - they're smart, modern-looking, have a nice interior, decent seats and mostly lack the Pendolino's blank wall seats problem. People don't like them when they're full or there's nowhere to put your luggage, but that's true for any train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest problem I've experienced with them, to be honest, is the terminally unreliable seat reservation system which really could do with being replaced. Hopefully the new franchisee will do this if they retain them.

 

[pt_mad]

They're exactly the same seats barring the window side armrest (and are exactly the same in 1st until the recent Voyager cushion and cover changes). Seats are purchased from a third party, and different train builders can purchase from the same manufacturer, particularly if the purchaser tells them to. Consider, for example, that Fainsa "ironing boards" are fitted to Hitachi, Siemens and Bombardier trains.

Doesn't it seem as though the aisle is narrower on a Pendo though? I.e. the aisle seems wider on a Voyager. Which does make any sense when a Pendolino coach is wider in the first place? Certainly a Pendolino looks way wider on approach to the platform than a Voyager does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't it seem as though the aisle is narrower on a Pendo though? I.e. the aisle seems wider on a Voyager. Which does make any sense when a Pendolino coach is wider in the first place?

Can't say I'd noticed, but possibly the sidewall is thicker on a Pendolino.

 

[mmh]

Doesn't it seem as though the aisle is narrower on a Pendo though? I.e. the aisle seems wider on a Voyager. Which does make any sense when a Pendolino coach is wider in the first place? Certainly a Pendolino looks way wider on approach to the platform than a Voyager does.

I'd doubt there's much in it - looking at some random interior pictures of them neither stands out against the other. Perhaps the Pendolino feels narrower because the interior feels more closed in due to the small windows? Perhaps the floor is higher on the Pendolino too? The ceilings look low. (Some would call this cramped, I wouldn't, I think it makes for a cozy, subdued and comfortable feel. Voyagers feel more airy. Swings and roundabouts!)

 

[krus_aragon]

Surely a 4 coach Voyager has more seats than 1 or 2 coach Sprinters?

True, but a 4-coach Sprinter will have more seats than a 4-coach Voyager (even after swapping out First Class) because of the end coaches, and high number of large toilets on board.

If you've enough stock in Sprinters, the Sprinters would be better for the job. If you've got no spare stock, anything bigger will help, even a Voyager.

 

[The Ham]

True, but a 4-coach Sprinter will have more seats than a 4-coach Voyager (even after swapping out First Class) because of the end coaches, and high number of large toilets on board.

If you've enough stock in Sprinters, the Sprinters would be better for the job. If you've got no spare stock, anything bigger will help, even a Voyager.

Up to a point, if you created a 10 coach Voyager as a single unit it would have almost the same capacity as a 9 coach train formed of a trio of 159's (assuming the same split of 1st/standard). As such there does come a point where Voyagers aren't such a bad idea (although would still have some capacity limitations on a like for like basis).

 

[pt_mad]

If we take the type of seats which are fitted to the East Coast MK3s, MK4s and XC HSTs. I know there's a proper identifying name for this type of seat. Are the Pendolinos and Voyagers wide enough to have these seats fitted in a refurb and still have enough room in the aisleway?

 

[cle]

Given the frequent talk about how to connect the WCML stations locally, for instance on the current Birmingham-Liverpool services and talk of amending to Preston - might a service from Llandudno/Chester to Preston/Blackpool/Lancaster (via Crewe and Warrington), be useful?

It would need to reverse at Crewe, and would be diesel under the wires. So those two points go against it, but it could open up quite a few useful unserved station pairs, and connections, and enable some other services to skip certain stops up the WCML. Perhaps it could replace the Crewe/Chester shuttle, as it would need that same platform.

 

[daikilo]

Why not go direct from Chester to Warrington and then on with a 769?

 

[cle]

I did think of that - makes logical sense... but I was thinking of the Crewe journeys and connections too. But most WCML stations have a direct to Crewe so perhaps that is better.

My main thought was about places like Wigan, Preston but also Hartford not having Chester services - as well as acting as a local service to speed others up. In some ways, London-Blackpool increases do this too, as do Cumbrian increases - and so London-Glasgow and others can accelerate.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it not possible to just come up with a replacement engine for the voyagers which is more efficient if fuel consumption is such a big concern?

The problem is that it's a heavy train specified to have a high performance so it needs to have a big engine. To some extent this is a vicious circle as some of the weight will be the structure that supports such a heavy engine and large fuel tank. A more modern engine might save a few percent in fuel consumption but to get a real saving would involve reducing the performance. Also new engines would be caught by the latest emissions regulations and would have to have various extra equipment which there probably isn't room for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we take the type of seats which are fitted to the East Coast MK3s, MK4s and XC HSTs. I know there's a proper identifying name for this type of seat. Are the Pendolinos and Voyagers wide enough to have these seats fitted in a refurb and still have enough room in the aisleway?

I'd expect so, the ones that are fitted (which I personally find pretty decent) are not the narrowest.

 

[BR Boy 125]

The freight TOCs do argue that.
Which is why the WCML is full of class 66s grinding over Shap and Beattock, while class 90/92s sit rusting at Crewe.
They also consume valuable paths which could be accelerated with electrics.

It's around those areas like the factories which require more heavy freight and diesels are clearly more powerful than electric. Well if you are comparing a class 66 to a class 90

 

[pt_mad]

So has anyone worked out how many minutes has been put on the maximum permitted journey times to Manchester, Liverpool and Chester? Compared to the average journey time at the moment?

Wondering if it's plus five minutes on those routes what with the ITT saying maximum times were leaniant to allow possible intermediate calls if bidders desire?

 

[SeanM1997]

What I would like to see (and perhaps a logical step) is for the new West Coast franchise to replace the 20 Voyager's with the 5-coach Hitachi Class 802 which GWR operates, and what Hull Trains and TransPennine Express will operate from 2019. These bi mode trains would allow for London-Birmingham-Scotland to use all electric operation, whilst the Chester/North Wales route could operate the diesel aspect before running on electric between Crewe and London, thus reducing pollution and as they can operate to 125mph - maybe speed up journey times due to faster acceleration.

The 20 Voyagers could then be transferred to the CrossCountry franchise - to allow an expansion to their network, or to allow coupling of units to reduce overcrowding.

 

[Darandio]

and as they can operate to 125mph - maybe speed up journey times due to faster acceleration.

They wouldn't be able to operate at 125mph on much of the WCML as they don't tilt.

 

[jyte]

I might have bumped my head but I swear part of GCR's Blackpool North bid was improving the WCMl where possible to increase non tilt speeds?

I imagine this is another situation where 'cool, but who's paying for it' is applicable.

 

[Class 170101]

For me the main service to improve is Liverpool which I feel should go half hourly during the off peak - but are there enough Pendolinos to do this?

After that I would focus on early and late services. 21:07 from London is far to early to be the last train for Liverpool. Extending the 22:00 currently terminating at Crewe would be a start even if it didn't call at Runcorn to allow for said train to be sent via alternative routes (like the 23:30 Kings Cross to Leeds doesn't call at Wakefield).

Connectivity also need to improve for early and late services to improve last journey connections - for example it seems strange that the 18:40 from Glasgow doesn't call at Crewe.

 

[edwin_m]

It's around those areas like the factories which require more heavy freight and diesels are clearly more powerful than electric. Well if you are comparing a class 66 to a class 90

A Class 66 has 3000 horsepower and a Class 90 has 5000 horsepower so a class 90 is more powerful.

What I think you are trying to say is that the Class 66 has more tractive effort, which is the force it can use to pull a train at low speed. The class 66 can get a heavier train moving and slog up the gradient slowly. With the heaviest train the 66 can haul the 90 would just spin its wheels and go nowhere. However if the train is is light enough for the class 90 to get it moving the extra power means it will be able to pull it more quickly up the hill than the 66 would. A class 92 has both high power and high tractive effort, being designed mainly as a freight engine. The freight trains that are electric-hauled over Shap have significantly better timings than the diesels.

 

[HSTEd]

It's around those areas like the factories which require more heavy freight and diesels are clearly more powerful than electric. Well if you are comparing a class 66 to a class 90

A Class 92 will leave a Class 66 in the dust on pretty much any train configuration you like.

But they rust because of the madness of privatisation

 

[E6007]

Not sure privatisation is the reason. BR was using diesel locos 'under the wires' well before then, leading to reduced demand for electric locos. As with the 92's, lots of 90's been laid up for a long time.

It may be 'cold' but finances comes into it.

 

[Carlisle]

Not sure privatisation is the reason. BR was using diesel locos 'under the wires' well before then, leading to reduced demand for electric locos. As with the 92's, lots of 90's been laid up for a long time.

True, it was BR that decided to keep some HSTs on the ECML rather than carry out the original plan of diesel hauled mk4 sets north of Edinburgh

 

[KashmireHawker]

With the East Coast news this week; making a firm number of the British Public sit up and take notice, could it easily kill off (as some think) VTWC's chances in retaining the Franchise?