West Coast Franchise speculation

[mmh]

As stated many times already class 390 is now outdated and can't be produced.

It might be an outdated design, but ask for another few dozen to built and you'd have them in a couple of years. Just like the last time that happened.

"Can't be produced" is nonsense, anything can be produced. If Bombardier were asked tomorrow to extend all 378s to six cars, they'd quote for it, regardless of the "Electrostars just can't be more than 5 car" bit that often gets said.

So presumably the Italian designers would have to be approached for their latest off the shelf version of the Pendolino.

Don't really see why when what we have was far from off the shelf.

 

[pt_mad]

It might be an outdated design, but ask for another few dozen to built and you'd have them in a couple of years. Just like the last time that happened.

"Can't be produced" is nonsense, anything can be produced. If Bombardier were asked tomorrow to extend all 378s to six cars, they'd quote for it, regardless of the "Electrostars just can't be more than 5 car" bit that often gets said.



Don't really see why when what we have was far from off the shelf.

The 390 can't be produced now. Like I say, Alstom would have to be approached for a new version. That is fact. It would not be a class 390. If you're saying they could make all the mods to the 390 needed then it'd be say a class 391, not a new batch of 390s.

Alliance Rail (Grand Central/GNWR) approached Alstom for a batch of 390s some 5 years ish ago. And they couldn't be produced as the design doesn't meet current standards for new trains. No waiver was allowed so it was put to bed.

The 390 came from an Italian design which was adapted, and developed from tilt technology sold to them (the italians) by BR as used on the APT. Pendolinos exist in other forms in Europe and i'm sure there's probably a more modern version available now.

I suspect it wouldn't look that similar to a 390 now as as far as I know it's the crash standards for new trains which the 390 design would now fail on. So one could assume it's the body of the train and so it would be quite a bit different from the current 390 if produced today.

 

[The Ham]

The 390 can't be produced now. Like I say, Alstom would have to be approached for a new version. That is fact. It would not be a class 390. If you're saying they could make all the mods to the 390 needed then it'd be say a class 391, not a new batch of 390s.

Alliance Rail (Grand Central/GNWR) approached Alstom for a batch of 390s some 5 years ish ago. And they couldn't be produced as the design doesn't meet current standards for new trains. No waiver was allowed so it was put to bed.

The 390 came from an Italian design which was adapted, and developed from tilt technology sold to them (the italians) by BR as used on the APT. Pendolinos exist in other forms in Europe and i'm sure there's probably a more modern version available now.

I suspect it wouldn't look that similar to a 390 now as as far as I know it's the crash standards for new trains which the 390 design would now fail on. So one could assume it's the body of the train and so it would be quite a bit different from the current 390 if produced today.

Given that any new units wouldn't need to run in service with any of the current fleet that wouldn't be a problem.

Yes it would mean some extra training for staff to maintain and operate them, but probably not a lot.

 

[jhy44]

Couldn't extending the London - Chester trains (that do not continue along the NWCL) to Birkenhead be a good way to increase Liverpool-area services both in terms of Capacity and Frequency, without the need to additional trains or WCML paths?

Obviously this would require capacity improvements to the Wirral line and the Birkenhead stations, but I'd imagine it would be quite popular amongst Wirral residents.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might be an outdated design, but ask for another few dozen to built and you'd have them in a couple of years. Just like the last time that happened.

"Can't be produced" is nonsense, anything can be produced. If Bombardier were asked tomorrow to extend all 378s to six cars, they'd quote for it, regardless of the "Electrostars just can't be more than 5 car" bit that often gets said.

As others have said it'd be more a 391 than a 390, but that wouldn't be too much of an issue really. They would produce something based on the "New Pendolino", no doubt, which wouldn't be too far from the present one.

As for Electrostars, it definitely could be done. You would do something like inserting a coach that thought it had two extra cabs in it and thus make a 6-car unit that was fooled into thinking it was two 3-car units. A bit like a Eurostar is two half-sets. It might be costly, as you might require something like a pantograph upgrade and a second transformer, but it could certainly be done (Pendolinos have either two or three transformers - 2 on a 9-car and 3 on an 11-car).

Most engineering problems can be solved, it's just whether it is cost-effective, or whether another option (such as an entirely new 6-car Aventra in the Electrostar discussion) is more cost-effective or otherwise preferable.

 

[The Planner]

Couldn't extending the London - Chester trains (that do not continue along the NWCL) to Birkenhead be a good way to increase Liverpool-area services both in terms of Capacity and Frequency, without the need to additional trains or WCML paths?

Obviously this would require capacity improvements to the Wirral line and the Birkenhead stations, but I'd imagine it would be quite popular amongst Wirral residents.

You would need additional units, you won't do Chester to Birkenhead and back in the layover time.

 

[PR1Berske]

Without capacity improvements on the Wirral lines where would the Chester trains terminate? Birkenhead North, by memory alone, is perhaps the 'best' candidate.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Without capacity improvements on the Wirral lines where would the Chester trains terminate? Birkenhead North, by memory alone, is perhaps the 'best' candidate.

You could terminate at Hooton, with a few tweaks.
The old P1 (now un-numbered) is still in place, complete with canopy.
It was at one time the Up Fast and the main platform.
It was retained to reverse freight trains for the Helsby line, while Merseyrail took over the Slows which are 3rd rail fitted.
Currently it is just used to reach the footbridge/lift which leads to all the EMU platforms, plus some bike storage.

Rock Ferry is the next option, and used to be the main interchange station for Merseyrail before it was extended southwards.
But I think the platforms would need reconstruction after decades of disuse - trees growing out of the track etc, despite the colour light signalling being still there.
Birkenhead Central has a sort of bay platform that is used to park a spare EMU in the off-peak, but it's too short really.
The layout is very poor there too (used to lead to the old EMU shed).

But Hooton is not a bad option.
It would connect into the 6tph northwards into Liverpool.
Big cheap (council) car park too - £1 a day.
Rock Ferry would interfere with Merseyrail more with the dense service north of Hooton.
Birkenhead Central seems impractical.
Presumably travelling round the loop on diesel would be out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I genuinely don't see the point - people already have the option of a change at Chester.

 

[The Ham]

I genuinely don't see the point - people already have the option of a change at Chester.

That could mean two changes to get to a HS2 service, whilst by having the service extended it would only be one change. Add in the perceived advantage of direct services (depending on change times this can at times be quite a real advantage) as well as increased capacity over the extension and there could be a good case to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That could mean two changes to get to a HS2 service

One change at Lime St. The classic service can be connected with at Chester, not HS2.

Merseyrail is a nice, self-contained, simple, highly reliable and extremely popular German-style S-Bahn operation. It doesn't need complicating with stinking, filthy Voyagers getting in the way.

 

[edwin_m]

As far as I know all the proposed HS2 service patterns have two London-Liverpool trains per hour even in the off-peak, so extra services to Liverpool are only really an issue in the pre-HS2 period. Hence discussion of connecting to HS2 at Birkenhead isn't relevant.

 

[driver_m]

You can't extend the pendo anyway. Software supposed to only allow upto 11 car operation, as told by an alsthom fitter and one of our instructors.

 

[B&I]

Despite the long journey I expect these to be VERY popular. Leisure travellers like cheap fares, and if you can get a train for the price of a coach even if it takes the same amount of time as a coach people will switch. Particularly for direct journeys.

Another segment of market to be exploited is people standing around Euston with their two arms the one length waiting for Virgin peak to end. What relevance is it that VTWC get you to Liverpool twice as fast as WMT, if you have to wait 4 hours to take advantage of that faster service ?

 

[B&I]

The level of demand from Manchester or Birmingham is irrelevant to Liverpool.

I travel on the Virgin trains into/ out of Liverpool several times a year. Have never had to stand. Cannot ever recall people standing *.

* Actually, I do recall one train leaving Liverpool F&S (Full and Standing) after a football match. But you can't justify a half-hourly service on the basis of something that might happen twenty days a year.

Try boarding the 19.07, particularly on a Friday. I wonder how much demand is being suppressed by the lack of current capacity between Lime Street and Euston ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try boarding the 19.07, particularly on a Friday. I wonder how much demand is being suppressed by the lack of current capacity between Lime Street and Euston ?

That has nothing to do with a lack of capacity and everything to do with a fares policy that seeks to maximise revenue[1] rather than maximise utilisation of rolling stock. And it's a problem on all VTWC routes as a result.

[1] That is, peak vs. off-peak is more a means of overcharging business passengers than it is of managing loadings.

 

[pt_mad]

Another segment of market to be exploited is people standing around Euston with their two arms the one length waiting for Virgin peak to end. What relevance is it that VTWC get you to Liverpool twice as fast as WMT, if you have to wait 4 hours to take advantage of that faster service ?

How long is this direct service from Euston to Liverpool via all stations Northampton, Birmingham and Wolverhampton going to take though? 4 and a half hours?

Also, tickets marked Euston - Liverpool, WMTrains only will be valid via the Trent Valley changing at Stafford anyway. Which would save the passenger a shed load of time, but congest the Trent Valley services further.

The only way around that is marking the ticket ''WMT via BHM only' or selling advances for the specific services via Birmingham. Although you stand the risk of filling the train with passenger for Liverpo at Euston and passengers for the West Mids may not get seats. Hard to say.

That has nothing to do with a lack of capacity and everything to do with a fares policy that seeks to maximise revenue[1] rather than maximise utilisation of rolling stock. And it's a problem on all VTWC routes as a result.

[1] That is, peak vs. off-peak is more a means of overcharging business passengers than it is of managing loadings.

The 1907 is still a peak train. So the price is premium and it's still full and standing regularly. So much so that all stops except Runcorn had to be omitted two years ago.

 

[setdown]

The 1907 is still a peak train. So the price is premium and it's still full and standing regularly. So much so that all stops except Runcorn had to be omitted two years ago.

Off peak tickets can be used on this train. It’s the first one after the peak that can be used, hence how busy it is.

 

[ainsworth74]

The 1907 is still a peak train. So the price is premium and it's still full and standing regularly. So much so that all stops except Runcorn had to be omitted two years ago.

It is, as always, worth recalling that there is no such thing as a "peak train". The return portion of a Liverpool or Runcorn to London Off-Peak Return would be valid (as would the outward portion of a London to Liverpool or Runcorn Off-Peak Return or a London to Liverpool/Runcorn Saver Half) on the 1907 as the evening restrictions finish at 1844 on those tickets. This, of course, means that the 1907 is the first train that is available for passengers travelling on such tickets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How long is this direct service from Euston to Liverpool via all stations Northampton, Birmingham and Wolverhampton going to take though? 4 and a half hours?
Also, tickets marked Euston - Liverpool, WMTrains only will be valid via the Trent Valley changing at Stafford anyway. Which would save the passenger a shed load of time, but congest the Trent Valley services further.

From December, the LNWR Euston-Crewe runs direct from Stafford, so you will be able to change at Crewe for the 2tph to Liverpool.
The Crewe service should be 8-car from then too.
The through train on the Birmingham loop will give new through services from Liverpool to Birmingham International, Coventry and Rugby etc.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From December, the LNWR Euston-Crewe runs direct from Stafford, so you will be able to change at Crewe for the 2tph to Liverpool.
The Crewe service should be 8-car from then too.
The through train on the Birmingham loop will give new through services from Liverpool to Birmingham International, Coventry and Rugby etc.

Which gives good connectivity - an other option which my son uses , it to go Milton Keynes - Chester on VWC , followed by Merseyrail. Admittedly he is non time critical for football journeys ! , but it works well enough.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

LNWR Euston-Crewe runs direct from Stafford

As in, non-stop? I hadn't seen this mentioned before. In some ways I'm glad, as it will mean more competition for Virgin. On the other hand, dearer tickets are bound to result, surely? And what about the Trent Valley service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which gives good connectivity - an other option which my son uses , it to go Milton Keynes - Chester on VWC , followed by Merseyrail. Admittedly he is non time critical for football journeys ! , but it works well enough.

The Journey Planner tends to offer that for MKC as the Liverpool-Euston doesn't stop there. It often has well-priced Advances, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As in, non-stop? I hadn't seen this mentioned before. In some ways I'm glad, as it will mean more competition for Virgin. On the other hand, dearer tickets are bound to result, surely? And what about the Trent Valley service?

It's been discussed on here though hidden away. The reason is to allow 8-car operation.

The Stoke "wobble" will instead get a new hourly Birmingham to Crewe service which is an extension of the New St-Wolves stopper (which I guess means the Wolves bay will become disused).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's been discussed on here though hidden away. The reason is to allow 8-car operation.

The Stoke "wobble" will instead get a new hourly Birmingham to Crewe service which is an extension of the New St-Wolves stopper (which I guess means the Wolves bay will become disused).

So there will then also be a third hourly WMT Birmingham-Stafford service? A significant improvement if so, because currently there are 4tph from Birmingham but they are bunched together and so it's 2tph for all intents and purposes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So there will then also be a third hourly WMT Birmingham-Stafford service?

It seems so, yes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems so, yes.

Yes, but it's the Birmingham-Wolverhampton stopper extended via Stoke to Crewe, ie no extra departures from Birmingham.
And extended in the other direction to London via Northampton, taking over another existing service.
Clever, but not what people wanting "direct" services were expecting.

All this clamour for faster, cheaper services to rival Virgin ultimately won't work.
Destroying the ICWC business for a cheaper alternative is not what the DfT has in mind.
If Grayling mirrors the LNER plans on the West Coast, he might well merge LNWR with ICWC, just like he is contemplating merging GN with LNER.
But I think HS2 (WCP) will get in the way of that.

 

[Mollman]

Yes, but it's the Birmingham-Wolverhampton stopper extended via Stoke to Crewe, ie no extra departures from Birmingham.
And extended in the other direction to London via Northampton, taking over another existing service.
Clever, but not what people wanting "direct" services were expecting.

All this clamour for faster, cheaper services to rival Virgin ultimately won't work.
Destroying the ICWC business for a cheaper alternative is not what the DfT has in mind.
If Grayling mirrors the LNER plans on the West Coast, he might well merge LNWR with ICWC, just like he is contemplating merging GN with LNER.
But I think HS2 (WCP) will get in the way of that.

Long term I could see the residual West Coast services merging with the LNWR services. With Phase 2 of HS2 opening it will no longer be acceptable to have the West Coast 'Intercity' operating running it due to overlap with East Coast and Cross Country.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Journey Planner tends to offer that for MKC as the Liverpool-Euston doesn't stop there. It often has well-priced Advances, too.

Very much so - he is well pleased with the offerings ! (if not the most recent football results from Everton / Kiev)

 

[JordyWM]

Long term I could see the residual West Coast services merging with the LNWR services. With Phase 2 of HS2 opening it will no longer be acceptable to have the West Coast 'Intercity' operating running it due to overlap with East Coast and Cross Country.

Especially as Transport for West Midlands are working towards a full split of the WM Trains franchise.