Wessex Route Study - draft out for consultation

[21C101]

Couldn't agree more. When I read these posts I put on my adenoid voice as the majority of the posts are unachievable and ideal world scenarios. Not what the draft sets out.

We all know what we'd like. 20 lines in and out of Waterloo, a thousand new trains. Oh and steam ones at that. With br blue coaches. And that is how far fetched these ideas are...

The point of my illusrative timetable post(s) was to illustrate what could be achieved with Crossrail and grade separation at both Woking and Basingstoke, all of which is planned in the long term.

With crossrail surfacing south of Wimbledon and having dedicated lines as far as New Malden and full grade separation at Woking and Basingstoke, plus ETCS signalling you could run 40 per hour into Waterloo and 24 on Crossrail total 64 trains per hour. Currently there is approx 24 per hour into Waterloo.

Yes the thread has gone off at a tangent towards Alresford and Bagshot at times (usually late evening ) however discussion of what could be achieved on the SWML with Crossrail and other planned improvements is valid.

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I think that having four platforms at Clapham Junction which are dedicated to fast servcies via Woking would allow a 24tph fast line service to have all services call at Clapham Junction once the signalling systems have been upgraded. The Western Route study implies that Old Oak Common will be able to cope with a 24tph GWML fast line service with all services calling at four dedicated platforms.

Indeed, the problem is getting four platforms at Clapham dedicated to fast lines. There ain't room.

nb: While there are already two fast line up platforms at Clapham the curve onto the loop is so steep that it has a 20mph speed limit making it near useless for the purpose you are suggesting.

If on the other hand you are prepared to demolish a few houses and commerical properties south of the station and take out some of the depot roads at the north end, then yes, it could indeed be done.

 

[infobleep]

The point of my illusrative timetable post(s) was to illustrate what could be achieved with Crossrail and grade separation at both Woking and Basingstoke, all of which is planned in the long term.

With crossrail surfacing south of Wimbledon and having dedicated lines as far as New Malden and full grade separation at Woking and Basingstoke, plus ETCS signalling you could run 40 per hour into Waterloo and 24 on Crossrail total 64 trains per hour. Currently there is approx 24 per hour into Waterloo.

Yes the thread has gone off at a tangent towards Alresford and Bagshot at times (usually late evening ) however discussion of what could be achieved on the SWML with Crossrail and other planned improvements is valid.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed, the problem is getting four platforms at Clapham dedicated to fast lines. There ain't room.

nb: While there are already two fast line up platforms at Clapham the curve onto the loop is so steep that it has a 20mph speed limit making it near useless for the purpose you are suggesting.

If on the other hand you are prepared to demolish a few houses and commerical properties south of the station and take out some of the depot roads at the north end, then yes, it could indeed be done.

Not sure how South West Trains planed to do it in the past when they suggested remodelling Clapham Junction. It didn't happen of course.
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Would the flyover at Woking and additional platforms at Guildford speed up the 8.20 and 8.46 stopping services to Waterloo? Currently the 8.20 waits outside Woking. The 8.46 waits at Woking Junction and outside Woking. I think about 4-7 minutes could be saved per train if these trains could leave Guildford later.

I mean the 8.20 doesn't stop at Worpolesden but still takes 10 minutes to reach Woking, 12 if you include the time it waits at Woking before departing. There is not the platform space at Guildford to hold the train beyond 8.20, which is why it does this. With more platforms and a flyover at Woking, may be this would be a thing of the past.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that having four platforms at Clapham Junction which are dedicated to fast servcies via Woking would allow a 24tph fast line service to have all services call at Clapham Junction once the signalling systems have been upgraded.

I don't think any of the published plans allow for four dedicated fast line platforms, just that some fast trains will transfer to the current slow line platforms, once the main suburban service has been thinned out towards Crossrail.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would the flyover at Woking and additional platforms at Guildford speed up the 8.20 and 8.46 stopping services to Waterloo?

The lack of a flyover at Woking apparently means that the entire (mainline side) timetable is written based on the limitations of Woking junction.

But with a flyover, there would be no reason to maintain the present timetable at all, so your question becomes pretty much academic, the likelihood is that the whole of the Portsmouth Direct and Main fast timings will change.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Not sure how South West Trains planed to do it in the past when they suggested remodelling Clapham Junction. It didn't happen of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would the flyover at Woking and additional platforms at Guildford speed up the 8.20 and 8.46 stopping services to Waterloo? Currently the 8.20 waits outside Woking. The 8.46 waits at Woking Junction and outside Woking. I think about 4-7 minutes could be saved per train if these trains could leave Guildford later.

I mean the 8.20 doesn't stop at Worpolesden but still takes 10 minutes to reach Woking, 12 if you include the time it waits at Woking before departing. There is not the platform space at Guildford to hold the train beyond 8.20, which is why it does this. With more platforms and a flyover at Woking, may be this would be a thing of the past.

0820 has to go to free up platform space (0800 ex WAT, come in & divides) and to provide enough time between it and 2P22 (0655 ex PMH), the 0846 needs to go for the same reason (platform space).

I tend to just let the latter trundle up towards Woking at around 20mph or so, so that there's a minimal (if any) wait at the junction. But the current timetable is the biggest load of BS IMHO.

Portsmouth Direct line services are a complete disgrace, I can drive to the coast in more or less the same time as a so called "fast" service and in the mid afternoon/early evening I most definitely can.

 

[infobleep]

0820 has to go to free up platform space (0800 ex WAT, come in & divides) and to provide enough time between it and 2P22 (0655 ex PMH), the 0846 needs to go for the same reason (platform space).

I tend to just let the latter trundle up towards Woking at around 20mph or so, so that there's a minimal (if any) wait at the junction. But the current timetable is the biggest load of BS IMHO.

Portsmouth Direct line services are a complete disgrace, I can drive to the coast in more or less the same time as a so called "fast" service and in the mid afternoon/early evening I most definitely can.

Correct. With more platforms this shouldn't be an issue. Saying that one wouldn't build 3 extra platforms just so 2 services can save 7 minutes. But as a consequence of building extra platforms for other service improvement, hopefully these can be included.

Also I'd like to see semi-fast services between Surbiton and Woking between 7-8pm. Additional infrastructure should allow this. Not sure why it doesn't now as trains run, just missing out Surbiton. Might be Political obstacles stopping it at the moment of course rather than technical.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Correct. With more platforms this shouldn't be an issue. Saying that one wouldn't build 3 extra platforms just so 2 services can save 7 minutes. But as a consequence of building extra platforms for other service improvement, hopefully these can be included.

Also I'd like to see semi-fast services between Surbiton and Woking between 7-8pm. Additional infrastructure should allow this. Not sure why it doesn't now as trains run, just missing out Surbiton. Might be Political obstacles stopping it at the moment of course rather than technical.

You can build the extra 3 platforms if you like, but that's going to wipe out one hell of a lot of very lucrative parking spaces over beyond platform 8.

 

[infobleep]

Tonight on the train was a customer update newsletter from South West Trains. Tim Shovelled pointed out that in 1996 South West Trains carried 100 million passengers a year and now it's 220 million. He also said the network is one of the busiest in Europe.

This got me wondering. What is the ranking order in terms of business, of the following lines or sections of line:
* West coast mainline
* East Coast mainline
* Thameslink core
* Reading and/or Great Western mainline
* South West Trains mine line between Surbiton and Waterloo and/or all of the South West Trains area.
* Anything else I've missed above that is busier than the above list

Some may not be fair comparison as I've included the whole network, being unsure of which parts are the busiest.

My point is, if the SWT network is one of the busiest, then surely there should be infrastructure projects on going to increase capacity. I don't just mean adding additional carriages as Reasing/Thameslink core and possiblybthe West Coast mine line are not solely about adding more carriages.

There are some additional platforms at Waterloo, which will store trains at least but they still use the same tracks once they leave the Waterloo area.

There is talk of what may happen in the future and I'm sure it will happen but when it does, how many people will South West Trains be carrying then or will their simply be suppressed demand for some years, once the additional carriages have filled up?

South West Trains do a good job overall, just that if if it's the busiest then surely infrastructure should be invested in to reflect numbers using the service.

If that isn't required now, what makes the other areas require such upgrades now?

I'm no expert so enlighten me if I've got anything wrong.

 

[swt_passenger]

Depends what you mean by busy. Trains or passengers?

In the early sections of the route study (page 9), that we are discussing, they point out that the SWML fasts are the busiest section of line on the network, in terms of peak train frequency.

Of particular note for this service group is the fact that the density of operation on the single Up (London bound) Fast Line inwards of Surbiton during the peak is higher than on any other single stretch of main line in the UK.

 

[21C101]

Tonight on the train was a customer update newsletter from South West Trains. Tim Shovelled pointed out that in 1996 South West Trains carried 100 million passengers a year and now it's 220 million. He also said the network is one of the busiest in Europe.

This got me wondering. What is the ranking order in terms of business, of the following lines or sections of line:
* West coast mainline
* East Coast mainline
* Thameslink core
* Reading and/or Great Western mainline
* South West Trains mine line between Surbiton and Waterloo and/or all of the South West Trains area.
* Anything else I've missed above that is busier than the above list

Some may not be fair comparison as I've included the whole network, being unsure of which parts are the busiest.

My point is, if the SWT network is one of the busiest, then surely there should be infrastructure projects on going to increase capacity. I don't just mean adding additional carriages as Reasing/Thameslink core and possiblybthe West Coast mine line are not solely about adding more carriages.

There are some additional platforms at Waterloo, which will store trains at least but they still use the same tracks once they leave the Waterloo area.

There is talk of what may happen in the future and I'm sure it will happen but when it does, how many people will South West Trains be carrying then or will their simply be suppressed demand for some years, once the additional carriages have filled up?

South West Trains do a good job overall, just that if if it's the busiest then surely infrastructure should be invested in to reflect numbers using the service.

If that isn't required now, what makes the other areas require such upgrades now?

I'm no expert so enlighten me if I've got anything wrong.

Looking at the timetables there appear to be 24 peak arrivals on the fast line between 08.00 and 09.00 including those joining the fast line at Berrylands (including two that arrive at 08.46, one from Exeter and one fast from Surbiton WTF???????)

08.01 Portsmouth via Eastleigh
08.06 Basingstoke Slow fast from Farnborough
08.08 Main line fast from Winchester
08.11 Portsmouth Direct Line
08.13 Guildford New Line fast from Surbiton
08.14 Yeovil
08.16 Main line fast from Winchester
08.19 Woking slow fast from Surbiton
08.22 Alton
08.24 Portsmouth Direct Line
08.26 West Byfleet slow fast from Surbiton
08.29 Basingstoke Slow fast from Woking
08.32 Portsmouth Direct Line
08.34 Portsmotuh via Eastleigh
08.36 Woking slow fast from Surbiton
08.38 Basingstoke slow fast from Woking
08.41 Portsmouth Direct Line
08.46 Exeter
08.46 Woking slow fast from Surbiton
08.50 Main Line Fast from Winchester
08.52 Alton
08.55 Portsmouth Direct Line
08.59 Farnham (Alton Line)
09.00 Basingstoke Slow fast from Woking

I'm sure thats not matched by any other railway line. It is down to I guess the grade separation and pairing of the tracks minimising conflict. Its an absolutely staggering number.

My post crossrail and flyover timetable suggestion a few pages back would allow 7 of those (2 from Bas 4 from Woking, 1 from Guildford New) to go onto the Slow Lines all the way to Waterloo. My proposals amount to 7 extra train paths per hour (1 to Soton fast, 2 Salisbury, 4 Basingstoke and 1 Guildford) keeping it at to 24 per hour (although it would actually need 25 per hour not 24, due to the extra Farnham train I hadn't allowed for and it would be 5 Portsmouth fast 1 Guildford fast - not 4 Portsmouth fast 2 Guildford past as I put it).

For the record the slow lines have 18 arriving between 08.00 and 09.00 making a total of 42 arrivals in Waterloo on the two main line tracks between 08.00 and 09.00

Therefore my proposed post crossrail timetable has slightly fewer peak hour arrivals at Waterloo as currently takes place. Hardly "unachievable and ideal world scenarios" deserving of an "adenoid voice". With flyovers at Woking and Basingstoke; that number of trains could be sustained throughout the peak rather than just in the busiest hour (the flyovers would also be needed to push the extra trains south of Woking).

I guess the question is, if you grade separated Woking and Basingstoke and added ETCS signalling, how many trains could you get up the fast in the peak direction of flow during the peak hour and down in the evening peak. 28 + 16 up the slow does not seem unreasonable, given the number of platforms at Waterloo.

 

[Class 170101]

I think one of the 08:46 arrivals should be 08:48.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If you look at videos of Waterloo on Youtube, it won't be unusual to see 4 trains arriving and 4 departing at the same time. Clapham is the only station that might be busier (when the Victoria routes are factored in)

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm sure thats not matched by any other railway line. It is down to I guess the grade separation and pairing of the tracks minimising conflict. Its an absolutely staggering number.

You might like to check GEML arrivals from the Shenfield direction on the Up main every morning. Not so much grade separation there.

 

[21C101]

You might like to check GEML arrivals from the Shenfield direction on the Up main every morning. Not so much grade separation there.

I make it 22 - 2 less than Waterloo - and with far fewer if any trains joining the fast lines on the 4 track section south of Shenfield. Not so much a four track railway as two two track railways

 

[AM9]

I make it 22 - 2 less than Waterloo - and with far fewer lines joining the 4 track section.

When it opens fully, Thameslink core will be busier, and that will be with trains stopping and unloading every 2 minutes travelling time. In addition, there will be no fanning-out over many platforms, - there are 2 exits southbound and only one northboud (with an oportunity to lose a few between the fasts at Carlton Road). All that with flat junctions at the splits.

 

[Bald Rick]

I make it 22 - 2 less than Waterloo - and with far fewer if any trains joining the fast lines on the 4 track section south of Shenfield. Not so much a four track railway as two two track railways

Well when I was involved it was 23/24, and I didn't think it had changed. Perhaps there's a AGA train planner out there who can confirm.

None join west of Shenfield - but that's the point. Anyone can run 24 trains an hour on a nonstop 2 track railway for a few miles. But running 24tph for 20 miles with 4 different stopping patterns in those 20 miles, 3 very different types of stock, and - importantly - a majority of those trains coming up a 2 track mainline with varied stopping patterns, is in my view more impressive than the SWML. I speak from the benefit of having been involved in both operations.

 

[JamesRowden]

Depends what you mean by busy. Trains or passengers?

In the early sections of the route study (page 9), that we are discussing, they point out that the SWML fasts are the busiest section of line on the network, in terms of peak train frequency.

They actually state (in your quote) 'main line'. The double track section between London Bridge and Waterloo East has 28tph heading to Charing Cross during the morning peak.

 

[Bald Rick]

They actually state (in your quote) 'mail line'. The double track section between London Bridge and Waterloo East has 28tph heading to Charing Cross during the morning peak.

It actually has 30. But then it's only a few hundred metres long.

 

[21C101]

Well when I was involved it was 23/24, and I didn't think it had changed. Perhaps there's a AGA train planner out there who can confirm.

None join west of Shenfield - but that's the point. Anyone can run 24 trains an hour on a nonstop 2 track railway for a few miles. But running 24tph for 20 miles with 4 different stopping patterns in those 20 miles, 3 very different types of stock, and - importantly - a majority of those trains coming up a 2 track mainline with varied stopping patterns, is in my view more impressive than the SWML. I speak from the benefit of having been involved in both operations.

You have got some grade separation. There is grade separation of the Southend line at Shenfield. Also where the slow lines cross over the fasts near Shenfield you can dump trains onto the slows for the last miles into Liverpool Street before the Cambridge line merges with the fasts. But yes it is impressive though. They must be longing for Crossrail and being able to turn the up and down electrics into the up and down Norwich Fast from Bethnal Green to Liverpool St.

I guess you could argue that the SWML investment in all those flyovers is a bit wasted without doing the final one at Woking, and you could be pushing 30 TPH on the fasts with that. There must be a limit though you reach due to the fact trains have to crossover when leaving and arriving at the Terminus however well grade separated and signalled the track is
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When it opens fully, Thameslink core will be busier, and that will be with trains stopping and unloading every 2 minutes travelling time. In addition, there will be no fanning-out over many platforms, - there are 2 exits southbound and only one northboud (with an oportunity to lose a few between the fasts at Carlton Road). All that with flat junctions at the splits.

Which is why they need moving block in cab signalling!!

The SWML is impressive because it is with 4 aspect signalling at at 100mph with different stopping patterns.

 

[AM9]

Which is why they need moving block in cab signalling!!

The SWML is impressive because it is with 4 aspect signalling at at 100mph with different stopping patterns.

Well, if signalling is the answer to high frequency operation, why consider wasting money on land takes and thousands of tons of concrete when upgrading the signalling earlier (as it be ERTMS there eventually) will do the job better.

 

[21C101]

Well, if signalling is the answer to high frequency operation, why consider wasting money on land takes and thousands of tons of concrete when upgrading the signalling earlier (as it be ERTMS there eventually) will do the job better.

The problem at Woking is that Up Portsmouth trains have to cross both down lines AND the up fast to get to the up slow line causing all sorts of conflicts and limiting the amount of trains that can go to Guildford.

 

[455driver]

The problem at Woking is that Up Portsmouth trains have to cross both down lines AND the up fast to get to the up slow line causing all sorts of conflicts and limiting the amount of trains that can go to Guildford.

Since when have up Pompeys used the slow line?

Isnt 4 trains an hour between Woking and Guildford enough?

 

[The Ham]

Since when have up Pompeys used the slow line?

Isnt 4 trains an hour between Woking and Guildford enough?

Yes and maybe not. Yes 4 trains an hour is enough at the moment, but the report is talking about up to 30 years from now. Therefore it may not be enough by the end of that time frame.

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Just as an aside, the assumed growth rate in the report (i.e. 40% more passengers by the early 2040's) is just over 1% per year (1.128%).

This would appear to be fairly low, although given the fairly limited range of what can be done (at least until Crossrail 2 is built) it may not be that far from what happens.

 

[21C101]

Since when have up Pompeys used the slow line?

Isnt 4 trains an hour between Woking and Guildford enough?

I would say no. Guildford is the county town with a population of 100,000. The infrastructure restrictions mean that there are no trains between Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, Byfleet and their county town, Guildford and trains from those places terminate at Woking. With a flyover they could run to Guildford (and maybe onto farncombe and Godalming).

Plus without a flyover there is no scope to run additional Pompey line services if traffic continues to grow.

 

[infobleep]

I would say no. Guildford is the county town with a population of 100,000. The infrastructure restrictions mean that there are no trains between Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, Byfleet and their county town, Guildford and trains from those places terminate at Woking. With a flyover they could run to Guildford (and maybe onto farncombe and Godalming).

Plus without a flyover there is no scope to run additional Pompey line services if traffic continues to grow.

Historically Surbiton was in the same county as Guildford but now it is part of Kingston upon Thames, which is a London Borough.

Prior to 1964, Kingston upon Thames was known as Kingston-upon-Thames and the Surrey County headquarters was located there. In fact it still is located there, even though Kingston is no longer in Surrey.

As for trains to Guildford. There are 2 an hour on Sundays and the odd few during week days so they do run, just not that often. Not sure about Saturdays.

 

[21C101]

Historically Surbiton was in the same county as Guildford but now it is part of Kingston upon Thames, which is a London Borough.

Prior to 1964, Kingston upon Thames was known as Kingston-upon-Thames and the Surrey County headquarters was located there. In fact it still is located there, even though Kingston is no longer in Surrey.

As for trains to Guildford. There are 2 an hour on Sundays and the odd few during week days so they do run, just not that often. Not sure about Saturdays.

The fact that they run Sundays only (other than a few odds and sods), while on weekdays up to four trains an hour terminate at Woking does rather demonstrate that the reason that they don't run through is due to pathing problems, not demand.

As does the fact that Woking pop 67,000 has 19 trains arriving at Waterloo between 8AM and 9AM while Guildford (pop 96,000) only has five trains arriving at Waterloo between 8AM and 9AM via Woking only three of which call at Woking

Not to mention that there are no trains at all from Guildford to Woking between 07.17 and 07.45 and 08.31 and 09.03. In the down directions there is a gap between 18.16 and 18.43, all of which makes life very difficult if you want to commute between Guildford and places like Weybridge or Basingstoke.

Commuting between Guildford where some of Surrey CC is based and Kingston, where the rest is, must be all but impossible, needing three changes (at Woking, Surbiton and New Malden). Under my suggested timetable a few trains back one change at Raynes Park would be needed.

 

[455driver]

The fact that they run Sundays only (other than a few odds and sods), while on weekdays up to four trains an hour terminate at Woking does rather demonstrate that the reason that they don't run through is due to pathing problems, not demand.

Or it demonstrates that half the Sunday trains stable at Guildford and a lot of them are crewed by either Guildford or Waterloo staff, Woking crews mainly work the Chertsey services on a Sunday.
On Sundays the down stoppers wait at Woking to be overtaken by the Pompeys (and the up ones leave Guildford immediately after the up Pompeys leave) so passengers would just catch the fasts between the two towns so maybe its just operational convenience for the stoppers to run to and from Guildford!

 

[infobleep]

The fact that they run Sundays only (other than a few odds and sods), while on weekdays up to four trains an hour terminate at Woking does rather demonstrate that the reason that they don't run through is due to pathing problems, not demand.

As does the fact that Woking pop 67,000 has 19 trains arriving at Waterloo between 8AM and 9AM while Guildford (pop 96,000) only has five trains arriving at Waterloo between 8AM and 9AM via Woking only three of which call at Woking

Not to mention that there are no trains at all from Guildford to Woking between 07.17 and 07.45 and 08.31 and 09.03. In the down directions there is a gap between 18.16 and 18.43, all of which makes life very difficult if you want to commute between Guildford and places like Weybridge or Basingstoke.

Commuting between Guildford where some of Surrey CC is based and Kingston, where the rest is, must be all but impossible, needing three changes (at Woking, Surbiton and New Malden). Under my suggested timetable a few trains back one change at Raynes Park would be needed.

Minor correction. There is an 8.46 stopping service from Guildford to Woking. The other gap you mention is correct but only Monday to Fridays. There is a 7.34 Mondays to Fridays but that runs fast from Worpolesden.

Between 7am and 8am, Guildford has a further 5 trains to Waterloo. 3 via Cobham and 2 via Epsom. They are slow but they do run to Waterloo. Hence taking into account the 7.54 fast service, which runs via the Cobham line without stopping, there are 10 trains to Waterloo.

I believe between 8am and 9am it's only 9 trains as there is one less fast service. You do however gain 2 stopping services via Woking, one of those replacing a fast service from Guildford and the other a Cobham line service.

In the evening there is also a gap from 17.58 until 17.16. The 17.16 also runs slow into Guildford and isn't due in until 18.27 WTT I think and 18.29 public. Contrast that with the 17.13 Woking to Portsmouth which gets into Guildford at 17.20. It being 4-6 minutes quicker. That desert stop at Worpolesden but it doesn't take an extra 4-6 minutes to stop there or all trains would be slower. It's only slow due to patching issues around Guildford.

More platforms wouldn't be worth the money to speed this up though but if it enables more services and this got sped up as a by product then great.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or it demonstrates that half the Sunday trains stable at Guildford and a lot of them are crewed by either Guildford or Waterloo staff, Woking crews mainly work the Chertsey services on a Sunday.
The down stoppers wait at Woking to be overtaken by the Pompeys (and the up ones leave Guildford immediately after the up Pompeys leave) so passengers would just catch the fasts between the two towns so maybe its just operational convenience for the stoppers to run to and from Guildford!

The cynic in me would say it's so South West Trains can claim 4 services an hour from Guildford to Woking. However truthfully I doubt that's the case.

So Woking drivers do Chertsey on Sundays to keep up their route knowledge?

Getting to Chertsey midweek from Guildford isn't easy. You spend half your journey time waiting for connecting trains. Travel time about 30 minutes; waiting about the same again!

Hopefully flyover changes at Woking could enable better connections.

 

[455driver]

How many people want to go from Guildford to Chertsey during the week?
Woking do Chertseys because they are about the only ones that sign the curve.

You wont be happy until there is a 5 minute service from every station to every other station will you!
All your posts these days are either moans about delays or moans about why there isnt a direct train from every station!

 

[Class 170101]

Well when I was involved it was 23/24, and I didn't think it had changed.

A quick count shows 23 arrivals at Liverpool Street between 08:00 and 08:59 but one of those is a Class 315 service calling at most of the intermediate Metro stations from Shenfield. Therefore 22 Fast Trains arriving.

 

[AM9]

As does the fact that Woking pop 67,000 has 19 trains arriving at Waterloo between 8AM and 9AM while Guildford (pop 96,000) only has five trains arriving at Waterloo between 8AM and 9AM via Woking only three of which call at Woking ....

So what? Do any (or many) trains start from Woking or do they all come in full from the PDL, SWML, Alton line, and Soton?
In addition, the further you get from London, the less commuters there are. If not then Soton would need four times the numbber of trains , that's nearly 80 per hour!