Were Bombardier Voyagers a mistake?

[thenorthern]

I would say that the CrossCountry voyagers are in need of a refurbishment at the moment as many of the standard class seats are dented.

Lets remember as well another Diesel powered Multiple Unit introduced at the same time the Class 180 which is still the fastest Hydraulic DMU in the world however there was an awful amount of technical problems when they were introduced and there were quite a few complaints about on board engine noise which resulted in First Great Western withdrawing them in favour of HSTs.

With both the Voyagers and the 180s they were entirely new trains using new technology that had never been used in the United Kingdom which there were many teething problems which were later fixed (mostly I think) when the Meridians were built.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As I recall, the voyagers were 4 and five car because the initial service was to run as pairs of voyagers (replacing HSTs or Mk2 stock). The plan was to then double the number of services on core routes, requiring one Voyager per service. IIRC the plan was then to add coaches to the voyagers as the services became more popular.

The problem with the doubling of the service, IIRC, was two fold. Firstly, that the new trains spawned many new passengers and, secondly, that the units suffered from poor reliability (especially around Dawlish). Virgin and the SRA made an agreement, IIRC, that the service should be cut back to improve reliability and capacity, and the additional coaches were never built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With both the Voyagers and the 180s they were entirely new trains using new technology that had never been used in the United Kingdom which there were many teething problems which were later fixed (mostly I think) when the Meridians were built.

Voyagers yes. 180s are basically much simpler 125mph Sprinters (same kind of hydraulic driveline), so really they *should* have worked out of the box.

Neil

 

[yorksrob]

Voyagers yes. 180s are basically much simpler 125mph Sprinters (same kind of hydraulic driveline), so really they *should* have worked out of the box.

Neil

To be fair, they seem to have bedded in on GC quite well. Rather a decent travelling environment as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, they seem to have bedded in on GC quite well. Rather a decent travelling environment as well.

I'd like them if someone would do a refurb that involved bolting the seats to the wall. The slight sway you get because they didn't makes me feel ill.

Neil

 

[yorksrob]

I'd like them if someone would do a refurb that involved bolting the seats to the wall. The slight sway you get because they didn't makes me feel ill.

Neil

Can't say as I've noticed that, but the upholstery is looking a bit threadbare.

 

[asylumxl]

To be fair, they seem to have bedded in on GC quite well. Rather a decent travelling environment as well.

When the services actually run. I don't know about recently, but the last set of figures for miles per technical incident for the class were appauling.

 

[387star]

Can't say as I've noticed that, but the upholstery is looking a bit threadbare.

Refurbishment due in new year for grand central

 

[yorksrob]

When the services actually run. I don't know about recently, but the last set of figures for miles per technical incident for the class were appauling.

I must have been lucky with them so far.
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Refurbishment due in new year for grand central

Good stuff. Nothing too drastic, they just need a facelift IMO.

 

[The Box Photter]

I can't say I'm a real fan. The all-pervading toilet smell is definitely the worst built in feature. What causes it and why haven't they managed to find a fix yet?

But, even with the rosiest of rose-tinted spectacles, the MkII stock and Class 47s they replaced were well past their use by date and the "crumbling edge of quality" was well in evidence.

A Voyager is better than a Pacer/no train at all.

 

[cjmillsnun]

As I recall, the voyagers were 4 and five car because the initial service was to run as pairs of voyagers (replacing HSTs or Mk2 stock). The plan was to then double the number of services on core routes, requiring one Voyager per service. IIRC the plan was then to add coaches to the voyagers as the services became more popular.

The problem with the doubling of the service, IIRC, was two fold. Firstly, that the new trains spawned many new passengers and, secondly, that the units suffered from poor reliability (especially around Dawlish). Virgin and the SRA made an agreement, IIRC, that the service should be cut back to improve reliability and capacity, and the additional coaches were never built.

The intention was to run a clock face schedule. Twice as many trains, but at half the size

 

[185143]

My answer to the original question is a short one.......YES! They may have engineering and operational virtues but from a passenger point of view they are unfit for purpose for really long journeys, although to be fair I am not sure what %-age of CCs ticket sales are for trips of >2 hours.

If I need to make a journey from West Yorks to the West of England I avoid them and travel via London using 91+Mk4, Underground & HST......some might say less convenient but far more pleasant. Even on a day trip from Leeds to Sheffield I have been known to seek out the few remaining HST workings!

It would be interesting to know what the staff who have to work on them have to say.

I'll put my hands up and admit to tweeting XC to avoid a vomiter between Leeds and Wakefield!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't say as I've noticed that, but the upholstery is looking a bit threadbare.

I'd imagine so if they still have the original Barbie First interior.

There is a good thing about the seats, which is that the thick support is in the middle rather than at the sides, making for more legroom even if the pitch isn't increased.

Neil
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The intention was to run a clock face schedule. Twice as many trains, but at half the size

Which completely ignored the "sparks effect", which was glaringly stupid on VT's part.

Neil

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't like underfloor engines. I seem to recall that the advance publicity for the voyagers said that the engine would be inaudible inside the saloon. Clearly that is not the case.

The things is, as more trains are delivered and older, better, MK3 carriages are withdrawn, the 'voyager experience' becomes the norm and you forget how much better things used to be / could still be.

I travelled on an EMT HST the other week. Sat in one corner you have an unrestricted view of the length of the carriage so you can see out of many windows rather than the one immediately by you. The lack of engine noise / vibration was a relief. FGW HST's are just as nice and quiet but are refurbished with seats so high backed they might as well go floor to ceiling and give passengers the complete cream cubicle effect.

The argument for distributed power (i.e. underfloor engines on several carriages) rather than loco and hauled carriages always looks at operating costs rather than passenger experience. If I have to travel and end up on a voyager, that's how it is, but it I certainly don't seek them out as any kind of pleasant experience. The TPE 185 units have the same engine drawback but at least have BIG windows.

The new Hitachi sets, well, I'll wait and see what the interiors are actually like rather than relying on artists impressions - I note they only ever do mock-ups of first class and never do cattle class! Any luggage racks enjoying the view whilst seats are aligned with solid walls like on Voyagers I wonder!

The best view from a train - Pacers, no competition (those with their original bus seats). Awesome for enjoying the scenery on both sides of your train!

 

[thenorthern]

I don't like underfloor engines. I seem to recall that the advance publicity for the voyagers said that the engine would be inaudible inside the saloon. Clearly that is not the case.

The things is, as more trains are delivered and older, better, MK3 carriages are withdrawn, the 'voyager experience' becomes the norm and you forget how much better things used to be / could still be.

I travelled on an EMT HST the other week. Sat in one corner you have an unrestricted view of the length of the carriage so you can see out of many windows rather than the one immediately by you. The lack of engine noise / vibration was a relief. FGW HST's are just as nice and quiet but are refurbished with seats so high backed they might as well go floor to ceiling and give passengers the complete cream cubicle effect.

The argument for distributed power (i.e. underfloor engines on several carriages) rather than loco and hauled carriages always looks at operating costs rather than passenger experience. If I have to travel and end up on a voyager, that's how it is, but it I certainly don't seek them out as any kind of pleasant experience. The TPE 185 units have the same engine drawback but at least have BIG windows.

The new Hitachi sets, well, I'll wait and see what the interiors are actually like rather than relying on artists impressions - I note they only ever do mock-ups of first class and never do cattle class! Any luggage racks enjoying the view whilst seats are aligned with solid walls like on Voyagers I wonder!

The best view from a train - Pacers, no competition (those with their original bus seats). Awesome for enjoying the scenery on both sides of your train!

I think as well underfloor engines can accelerate quicker, I know the 180s can accelerate twice as quickly as an HST can but the 180s generate much more noise inside the coaches.

The Voyager's windows aren't too bad although not all seats are aligned with the windows. Agree with the Pacer having the best windows. Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield along the Hope Valley line in a Northern Rail Class 142 Pacer with bus seating is the best journey I have ever done.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I think as well underfloor engines can accelerate quicker, I know the 180s can accelerate twice as quickly as an HST can but the 180s generate much more noise inside the coaches.

The Voyager's windows aren't too bad although not all seats are aligned with the windows. Agree with the Pacer having the best windows. Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield along the Hope Valley line in a Northern Rail Class 142 Pacer with bus seating is the best journey I have ever done.

It's not the fact that the engines are under the floor that make them accelerate quicker, it is down to the traction being distributed along the train.

Think about it this way. A Class 91 loco and a rake of Mk4s has drive from 2 bogies.

All the power through 4 axles.

A Meridian has 2 driving axles per car

Even on a 7 car Meridian, there is less overall power, however with the power being distributed along the train, each engine effectively only has to propel the one car, and therefore they are quicker off the mark. The other advantage of distributed traction is that wheelslip is less of an issue.

 

[Murph]

It's not the fact that the engines are under the floor that make them accelerate quicker, it is down to the traction being distributed along the train.

Think about it this way. A Class 91 loco and a rake of Mk4s has drive from 2 bogies.

All the power through 4 axles.

A Meridian has 2 driving axles per car

Even on a 7 car Meridian, there is less overall power, however with the power being distributed along the train, each engine effectively only has to propel the one car, and therefore they are quicker off the mark. The other advantage of distributed traction is that wheelslip is less of an issue.

While you're generally correct about the advantage of distributed traction, the picture you've given above is not quite complete. A class 91 has an axle load of around 20t/axle. Class 22x has a much lower axle load (not sure exactly, couldn't find the numbers, but probably somewhere around 10t/axle, I'd guess). That makes a fairly significant difference to the amount of tractive effort which can be put out (i.e. the 91 can pull much harder per axle). I'd guess the 22x probably can still beat the 91 overall, but it's a narrower margin than your picture above suggests.
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Oh yeah, just remembered one other thing which was very much a mistake with the Voyagers — the complete lack of non-emergency sanding equipment, and even the emergency sanders were extremely limited. A very bad design choice there, and now the subject of an RAIB report.

 

[Envoy]

When I first travelled on one, I could not believe that these had been designed for our longest rail journeys. What a major goof up by the DfT and Virgin!

Narrow seats - due to narrow bodies. What was the point of making trains with narrow bodies, presumably with the intention that they would tilt on the bends and therefore reduce journey timings? But, hang on, about half the fleet were built with no-tilt and now we have a situation where CC run the Voyagers with non of them tilting. So, we have the disadvantage of narrow bodies without the advantage of being able to tilt and reduce journey timings. How daft is that?

Clearly, they were made too short. Did it not cross the minds of civil servants at the DfT and Virgin executives, that if you improve the service, that you might well attract more passengers?

Then we have to put up with engine noise and vibration that is so bad that the windows can rattle. Even the seat backs are a shiny cream colour that reflects in the windows and stops you have a clear view out - assuming that you are not stuck behind a pillar. (Reflections are worse when the lights are left on. Why can they not have a sensor on the front of the trains to flick them on automatically on entering tunnels or at night)?

The last CC Voyager I travelled on had seats that were so clapped out, that I couldn't wait for the journey to end.

In my view, the Class 175 Coradias operated by Arriva Trains Wales are much nicer trains. Anybody travelling between Crewe and Bristol who has not used one, ought to give it a shot by travelling via the Marches - with a change at Newport. Just beware that FGW might supply a 150 for the Newport to Bristol (™) leg though a 158 is virtually guaranteed if it is Portsmouth bound. (Those from the north, might find it advantageous to split the ticket at Crewe).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Have XC just disabled the tilt in their Voyagers? Not sure but think I might have read somewhere that they've physically removed the tilt equipment

 

[dk1]

Have XC just disabled the tilt in their Voyagers? Not sure but think I might have read somewhere that they've physically removed the tilt equipment

Yes they have. This helps to make them one if not the most reliable IC train in the UK. Consistently at the top of the MRs spanner tables.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I must travel on a different sort of Voyager to the previous 50 posters.
They are ideal for the North Wales-London run.
They have defects for sure, but so does any train (fixed HST armrests, anyone?).
Coach D (when not purloined for First) is a good ride, window-sync and all.
It's likely their journey time on the WCML will not be beaten for a long time.
Anything else would be slower without the tilt, and electrification is a long way off.
Operationally, they can be attached/split in a couple of minutes.

Maybe people don't recall the slow, lumbering 47+Mk2 sets at 1tph on XC, where the power had usually failed in one coach.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe people don't recall the slow, lumbering 47+Mk2 sets at 1tph on XC, where the power had usually failed in one coach.

I do (power failures and all) although how much of that was due to a wind down in maintenance is difficult to say. That said, the layout of facing seats was preferable to me, and even where airline seating is a necessity, the refurbed XC HST's are a lot more spacious and comfortable.

 

[D6975]

In my view, the Class 175 Coradias operated by Arriva Trains Wales are much nicer trains. Anybody travelling between Crewe and Bristol who has not used one, ought to give it a shot by travelling via the Marches - with a change at Newport. Just beware that FGW might supply a 150 for the Newport to Bristol (™) leg though a 158 is virtually guaranteed if it is Portsmouth bound. (Those from the north, might find it advantageous to split the ticket at Crewe).

I routinely do this anyway when going from Bristol to the North West, not only to avoid the awful Voyagers but to avoid the overpriced tickets on services that go via Cheltenham-Birmingham.

 

[Geezertronic]

I must travel on a different sort of Voyager to the previous 50 posters.

Me too. I'm your average Joe and to me it is rather strange that someone would actively increase their journey time just to avoid a certain make/model of train. I could understand wanting to travel at a less busy time but to route in and out of London to me in ludicrous. If I want to travel from Birmingham to South Wales or the South West, I'll take whatever comes along whether that be a 221/222, 170, FGW HST etc...

 

[ValleyLines142]

Yay, another Voyager hate thread....

Voyagers are actuallly rather stylish trains, and very sophisticated. A Bournemouth to Manchester service pulled into Birmingham Intl the other day and my friend said 'wow that's actually a nice train'. And I must reiterate this wasn't a Pendolino....

The problem is that they are too small. If they were say six or seven cars, like EMT's Meridians, then they'd be fine.

As for the toilet smell, unfortunately that's just tough titties and all trains are like it. I was on a 150 the other day that absolutely hummed.

There are worse trains to travel on to be honest.

 

[starrymarkb]

there were quite a few complaints about on board engine noise which resulted in First Great Western withdrawing them in favour of HSTs.

It was more the horrendous reliability that lead to them being dropped then noise, much as enthusiasts would like to think it was the case

 

[The Ham]

I must travel on a different sort of Voyager to the previous 50 posters.

Me too.

This next post may get me banned by the mods for being a heretic, but here goes-

When I went to the north west earlier this year I went up on a IC225 and back on a couple of Voyagers (change at Birmingham). I found the Voyagers more comfortable to travel in than the Mark 4 coach I was in. Mostly this was down to the extra leg room that there was and the fact I ad two seats to myself the whole way on the Voyagers.

Did I notice the underfloor engines, not really. Was there a smell, not noticeably. Did both trains get me there and back, yes. Which of these three was the most important, the last one.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I must travel on a different sort of Voyager to the previous 50 posters.

These days, the Virgin Voyager trains are really quite noticeably different from the XC 220/221 trains.

XC squashed extra seats in, took out the buffet car, and generally don't look after them as well as Virgin do. Given that both Virgin and XC units are maintained by the same people at Central Rivers, I can only assume that XC have gone for the bargain maintenance package. Everything about XC these days is penny-pinching and horrible and the state of their 220/221s is no different.

The problem is partly that XC services have been a victim of their own success. Under Operation Princess the Voyagers replaced a seven carriage HST or a six carriage 47/86+mkII (or a two-carriage 158 in some cases, don't forget), but they also doubled the frequency when they did it, so there was no significant loss of seating per hour. But a half-hourly service is a lot more attractive than an hourly or two-hourly one, so there were more people trying to get on each train.

Also don't forget that Virgin wanted to keep the HSTs, cutting them down to five carriages, giving them a full refurbishment and rebranding them as a "Challenger". The SRA didn't let them, with some of them going to GNER and some of them going into warm store at Long Marston (from where Grand Central took some and First Great Western took the rest).

 

[ainsworth74]

This next post may get me banned by the mods for being a heretic, but here goes

We've talked it over and on this occasion we'll let you off with a stern warning. We're an accepting bunch but even our patience has its limits!

 

[The 4th Rail]

On the subject of the voyagers being too short, Could 221 144 (the two car unit) be used to lengthen any exceptionally overcrowded diagrams?