Welshwashing: TfW announcements

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Listen to how grating this is, for a service running entirely within England. It doesn't help that 1) Elin has an awful, piercing voice and 2) Eryl, although he makes very good platform announcements, really over pronounces the words in these new on-board recordings (Trafnidiaeth Cummmmmrrreryy) 3) the gaps are ridiculously long.

Bear in mind the dwell times won't be so long at many stations.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

It depends how you define fluency but I can think of plenty of people who clearly struggle in English.

I can believe that, in rural Gwynedd some people hardly need to use English. Likewise pre-school children might only speak Welsh. They pick up English soon enough when they start school.

One hopes that English announcements are made in a Welsh accent.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can believe that, in rural Gwynedd some people hardly need to use English. Likewise pre-school children might only speak Welsh. They pick up English soon enough when they start school.

One hopes that English announcements are made in a Welsh accent.

They are, but an unfortunately very harsh, grating one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the way Wales is now suggesting we should all use the Welsh names for places like Eryri and mountains like Yr Wyddfa, is it time they got rid of stuff like Caer, Lerpwl and Manceinon?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given the way Wales is now suggesting we should all use the Welsh names for places like Eryri and mountains like Yr Wyddfa, is it time they got rid of stuff like Caer, Lerpwl and Manceinon?

They won't, because the approach is exceptionally one way. And I wouldn't want Welsh speakers to have to use English names if they have their own words, because they indeed have their own beautiful language and the right to use it, but at the same time English language has words for cities/towns like Swansea rather than Abertawe, and we ought to be allowed to use those when speaking that language.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

The fact of the matter is that the WELSH legislation states that OUR language will be take precedent. To have a system where as soon as you cross the border into "lloegr/england" it changes is not practicable or even sensible.
And it's funny how I this never seems to cause a problem on our services east of Shrewsbury.

It's certainly practical as SBB manage it. Welsh legislation cannot rightfully insist on Welsh coming first in announcements played in England. I appreciate many far left wingers are becoming increasingly insistent on Welsh preceding everything (despite it's far lower usage) and that may be fair enough in Wales, but it certainly isn't in England - and I'm not talking out of pride or patriarchal values or country loyalty as many of the pro-Welsh announcement complainants do, rather for accessibility reasons

 

[Dai Corner]

Welsh legislation cannot rightfully insist on Welsh coming first in announcements played in England

It doesn't. TfW can do whatever they like, assuming nothing is specified in their agreement with the UK Government. If you'd like it changed then lobby your MP.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It doesn't. TfW can do whatever they like, assuming nothing is specified in their agreement with the UK Government. If you'd like it changed then lobby your MP.

I'm not fussed as long as the announcements aren't too long that the doors are closed before the English one has played after the Welsh one. Unlike many who partake in debates about this, I'm not actually fussed about petty things like what language comes first, more the fact the inclusion of Welsh first is meaning English information isn't always provided due to short dwell times.

 

[L401CJF]

I don't have an issue with the announcements being in Welsh and English, but I do have a problem with the sheer amount of announcements and unnecessary length.

As mentioned earlier, there is no need to announce "Thank you for travelling with TFW" at every stop and so on.

If it was as the same format as the legacy fleet but multi language it would be OK I think.

Currently you have (on 150/3/8), English only) :
-"Welcome aboard, we will be calling at X,Y,Z" at the start of the route/following major stations.

-"We will shortly be arriving at X" on approach to a station

-"This is X. This train is for Y" once doors open at a station

-"This train is for X, the next stop is Y" on departure from a station.

-"We will shortly be arriving at X, our final station" on approach to the terminus.

I feel the short but sweet setup Currently used on the sprinters would be acceptable in both English and Welsh, whereas the 197 setup is just too much.

Avanti have the right balance when their services announce Welsh and English on Holyhead routes I find.

EDIT- Forgot to add, this has been raised by staff internally and they are looking for feedback on ways to improve the announcements. Obviously it has to include a Welsh version, but it is being looked into.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As I have also posted here (which is probably a better thread for non-language related moans about awful Elin)

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-wales-announcements-cis-and-pis-discussion.190066/page-7#post-5975527:

The 197 set up isn't even the worst as after departing it welcomes you to TfW (again) and then says the destination and next stop.

After departing AND at each station, the Mark 4s have:

"Croeso i Trafnidiaeth Cymru... Byddwn yn teithio i.... Gaergybi........Yn galw yn......Casnewydd......Cwmbrân.....Pont-y-pŵl a New Inn......Y Fenni.....Henffordd.....Llanllieni......Llwydlo.....Craven Arms....Church Stretton....Amwythig.......Gobowen......Y Waun......Rhiwabon.....Wrecsam Cyffredinol.....Caer.....y Fflint..... Prestatyn.....Rhyl.....Bae Colwyn.....Abergele a Pensarn.....Cyffordd Llandudno......Bangor...... a..... Chaergybi....
Welcome aboard Transport for Wales..... We will be travelling to.....Holyhead......We will be calling at......Newport Gwent.......Cwmbrân.....Pontypool and New Inn.....Abergavenny.....Hereford.....Ludlow.....Leominster.....Craven Arms.....Church Stretton.....Shrewsbury.....Gobowen.....Chirk.....Ruabon.....Wrexham General.....Chessssssster.....Flint.....Prestatyn.....Rhyl..... Colwyn Bay.....AberGELEH and Pensarn.....SHHANDIDNOH JunSHAN... .....Bangor.... and Holyhead.

Believe me, that at every station and after every station, combined with also very long station approach announcements, does one's nut in.
Don't understand the need for "Gwent" after Newport either. It's hardly going to be Newport Isle of Wight is it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Croeso i RegionalExpress 2 i Llandudno. Yr orsaf nesaf yw Fflint."

They've got an opportunity there with the recast - it'd be disappointing if the "metro" concepts aren't properly done...

(Did someone say Takt? )

 

[syrac]

I agree with the sentiment of previous posters - they just need to shorten the announcements so that it doesn't massively matter which is played first - you can get the information you need in the language you prefer before the doors close.

I get that currently the announcements are so long that the doors may close before it has finished, therefore I can understand wanting to put the English announcement first, so as many people as possible can understand it. On the other hand I do also think that they should play the Welsh announcements first (except for services that run entirely within England), after shortening them, so that both can be played without it taking too long.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree with the sentiment of previous posters - they just need to shorten the announcements so that it doesn't massively matter which is played first - you can get the information you need in the language you prefer before the doors close.

I get that currently the announcements are so long that the doors may close before it has finished, therefore I can understand wanting to put the English announcement first, so as many people as possible can understand it. On the other hand I do also think that they should play the Welsh announcements first (except for services that run entirely within England), after shortening them, so that both can be played without it taking too long.

Yes, to be honest if they shorten them I don't care which comes first. More people speak English, particularly in England, but if it pleases the far left types that protest so heavily about English announcements coming first, let Welsh go first.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

Watch this from 1:33 onwards and tell me hearing this at and after every stop is not unbearable, and just remember this announcement length was after the train had already been going for three hours and would have been pretty much double the length at the start of the journey. It's so long that when it arrives at the station the at-station announcement is still going when it pulls out, so as soon as it ends the P.A. chimes again and it repeats it all for the after-departure announcement.

 

[duncanp]

One hopes that English announcements are made in a Welsh accent.

Surely they should be made by someone who can mimic the voice of the late Ruth Madoc (RIP), start with Hi-de-hi, and be preceded by three bongs on the chime bars.

 

[Sheridan]

An interesting change to the title of this thread - it doesn’t say the original post was edited so who made the change I wonder? (The phrase ‘Welshwashing’ wasn’t in the title to begin with.)

 

[hexagon789]

Welsh legislation cannot rightfully insist on Welsh coming first in announcements played in England.

It doesn't, the Welsh Language Act expressly states that Welsh and English must be treated equally by publically accessible bodies, that Welsh has equal right of use in Welsh courts and it set up the Welsh Language Board.

I doubt that arguing about Welsh going first would in anyway breach the 'equal treatment' clause.

I think the most logical resolution is simply reducing the length of announcements by making them far, far more succinct.

 

[VideozVideoz]

I’m not sure why the TfW announcements have to say “we will be calling at the following principle stations”. The word principle is not needed. It is said whether the train stops at all stops or it doesn’t. Not every station can be principle if the calling patterns change

 

[Parallel]

At Newport, the English announcements come first with the Welsh second, so it can be done. The announcements at Cardiff Queen Street used to be English only until a senior politician kicked up a fuss and then Welsh was added. I’ve got no issue with Welsh being included at all but the announcements need to be kept short on board of more than one language is used in my opinion. I’m also not a fan of Elin’s voice as it’s piercing and hard to ignore when listening to music through earphones!

I believe principal stations was used on board because they don’t list the request stops.

 

[L401CJF]

I’m not sure why the TfW announcements have to say “we will be calling at the following principle stations”. The word principle is not needed. It is said whether the train stops at all stops or it doesn’t. Not every station can be principle if the calling patterns change

Principle means the main ones and doesn't include requests, so for example a service to holyhead will announce Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead but won't announce Conwy etc.

On departure from Junction it should in theory announce "The next stop is Bangor. Conwy, Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan are request stops, please speak to the conductor if you wish to alight" or similar, but doesn't always, and just causes more confusion!

 

[Cantab26]

The law on PA announcements is stated in Standard 83 of the Welsh Language Standards (No 2) Regulations 2016

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2016/182/pdfs/wsi_20160182_mi.pdf

The general principle for public bodies is that they must offer their services in Welsh and that if they do so in English as well, English should not be treated more favourably than Welsh

The reason this can't be done was given by @Dai Corner in post #9, wasn't it?

The quoted legislation does not apply to on-train PA announcements or (at all) in England. Consequently, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do think a lot of these legislations and laws insisting on "Welsh first" and all that is little more than unnecessary vanity. I live in Cardiff and no one cares which way round they go. It's petty vanity.

 

[Sheridan]

I do think a lot of these legislations and laws insisting on "Welsh first" and all that is little more than unnecessary vanity. I live in Cardiff and no one cares which way round they go. It's petty vanity.

If no one cares then Welsh might as well go first then?

 

[Meole]

TFW run services for the benefit of Welsh taxpayers including various connecting services in England not for the English, if English customers choose to board they must accept who the service is actually for, and the provision of an English translation is actually a generous concession. The eventual intention is to remove the English language from Welsh regions on a progressive basis as in the former Snowdonia and the elimination of foreign owned homes.
This is democracy being the policy of majority parties in the Senedd.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If no one cares then Welsh might as well go first then?

As I've said, the issue I haven't isn't the order in itself, it's the consequential lack of English announcements at stations due to the length of the Welsh ones beforehand taking up all of the dwell time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

TFW run services for the benefit of Welsh taxpayers including various connecting services in England not for the English, if English customers choose to board they must accept who the service is actually for, and the provision of an English translation is actually a generous concession. The eventual intention is to remove the English language from Welsh regions on a progressive basis as in the former Snowdonia and the elimination of foreign owned homes.
This is democracy being the policy of majority parties in the Senedd.

The bit in bold is absolute codswallop.
The bit in italics - when I talk about people who speak English I also speak for the masses of Welsh people that don't speak fluent Welsh, and you cannot say that the service is only intended for Welsh people.
The bit underlined is just not practical, and again what I would, respectfully, suggest to be a vanity project.

 

[Sheridan]

As I've said, the issue I haven't isn't the order in itself, it's the consequential lack of English announcements at stations due to the length of the Welsh ones beforehand taking up all of the dwell time.

Yes you have said that and I think most people in this thread agree that announcements should be significantly shorter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

TFW run services for the benefit of Welsh taxpayers including various connecting services in England not for the English, if English customers choose to board they must accept who the service is actually for, and the provision of an English translation is actually a generous concession. The eventual intention is to remove the English language from Welsh regions on a progressive basis as in the former Snowdonia and the elimination of foreign owned homes.
This is democracy being the policy of majority parties in the Senedd.

This is overstating the matter somewhat. The English language cannot be removed from Wales and I don’t think even the most ardent campaigner for the Welsh language believes that it can, whether they would like it to be or not.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

It isn’t just the trains. I drove over the M4 Severn Bridge to the A449 junction in Newport a few weeks back, and I there were nine motorway matrix signs with an exclamation mark, a flashing ‘50’ speed and some Welsh words I’d guess a good 80% of people didn’t understand, being as they’d all just come from England. None were in English, so no idea what the hazard was. I figured using Welsh is considered far more important than actually passing on information.

 

[popeter45]

as somebody originally from Swansea and couldnt even speak welsh if i tried (learning difficulties, needed to focus on English) its all a very touchy subject
I'm fine with people who want to speak welsh, its our herritage and good for them, what i have a serious gripe with is this push to treat English as inferior or as if those who dont speak welsh are lesser to those who do
if an area of wales is a primary english speaking area why try force it to speak welsh againts its choice?, isnt this just a repeat of the welsh not but to another language?, an eye for an eye just make the world blind

back to the learning difficulties it made me have to go to a boarding school in england as i needed to focus on english rather than split between welsh and english and the insistance by a few vocal govanors in my comp that if i had to chose between english or welsh they insisted welsh should take priority and i drop english instead, in swansea of all places where basicly nobody speaks welsh let alone only

 

[duncanp]

TFW run services for the benefit of Welsh taxpayers including various connecting services in England not for the English, if English customers choose to board they must accept who the service is actually for, and the provision of an English translation is actually a generous concession.

What a load of rubbish..

What about those Welsh taxpayers who can't speak Welsh at all, or those who do not speak Welsh as their first language.

And what about visitors to Wales who don't speak Welsh, not only people who live in England, but those from abroad who can speak some English in addition to their first language.

These people have just as much right to board any train service in Wales as those who speak Welsh as a first language, and it is not unreasonable to expect provision to be made for them, given that English is an official language in Wales, as outlined in the Welsh Language Act.

Next time I go walking in the Shropshire Hills, I must remember that the train from Shrewsbury to Church Stretton, as well as the train from Birmingham to Shrewsbury if travelling on a TfW service, is not really for me, and I shall write a grovelling thank you letter (in English) to that nice Mr Drakeford for being so generous as to let me travel on "his" trains.

 

[Dr Day]

One potentially more serious concern is genuine safety information which needs to be communicated as simply and effectively as possible. Diagrams help here but aren't universal.

 

[CardiffKid]

Oh great, yet another thread about the Welsh language. Yawn.

As for the title “Welshwashing” who came up with that?

 

[John Luxton]

I speak as having used the Liverpool to Chester service a number of times this year as an alternative to Merseyrail I don't find any problems with announcements in Welsh.

I spend a lot of a my leisure time in Wales and find the language fascinating. Have picked up a bit of vocabulary over the years from signs etc, have learned correct pronunciations, and learnt many Welsh placenames.

One day I might like to get round learning Welsh properly.

As a language of our islands I have no objection hearing it this side of the border especially in the borderlands.

Liverpool was once known as the "Capital of North Wales". There were quite a few Welsh churches and chapels here and much of the Victorian / Edwardian terraced housing constructed in the city were erected by developers with Welsh origins.

The only thing I would like to see is the phasing out of Anglicised Welsh names on signs - do we need Wrexham / Wrecsam for example? AS most English can cope with Aberystwyth should not Swansea become Abertawe for all?