Welshpool dynamic loop

[The Planner]

Like the comment made on that story, if the crossing is used correctly, why should something happen ??

 

[merlodlliw]

Like the comment made on that story, if the crossing is used correctly, why should something happen ??

Out of interest,have ATW or NR consulted the locals who use this type of crossing,I have noted a couple near Newtown which have red & green lights
I agree "If used correctly" ,it will be a culture change for some to see fast trains on this line, if no consultation as been held,what have NR & Co been doing for
the past few years in that area. In my opinion a letter may not be sufficient.

On the other hand, there are a few down there who would like to see the line gone.


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Out of interest,have ATW or NR consulted the locals who use this type of crossing,I have noted a couple near Newtown which have red & green lights
I agree "If used correctly" ,it will be a culture change for some to see fast trains on this line, if no consultation as been held,what have NR & Co been doing for
the past few years in that area. In my opinion a letter may not be sufficient.

On the other hand, there are a few down there who would like to see the line gone.


Bob

There's all of two farms on that side of crossing and they are in habit of crossing over without telephoning - seen them do it when waiting to take pics at loop. Like the old dear mowed down by a 97 north of Harlech familiarity with the tt breeds contempt.

 

[the-gog]

It's now thought the blockade is going to be extended to Tuesday or Wednesday. If I find anything more out from one of bus contacts, I'll confirm this. They were still tamping the Down loop line at Welshpool today, and have been going up and down it with the ballast profiler on the road railer. Remember that they still need to carry out staff familiarisation -- and proper route-learning -- on both lines of the double track before it can be put into passenger use. This can't have happened so far if they're still fettling the track up. It's only taken them approx 4 years to get it done...

 

[seagull]

A 158 test train went over both up and down lines at Welshpool early this morning and I believe therefore it can be commissioned, but the speed on the down loop line is only 30 km/h (20 mph) throughout at the moment due to tamping.

That doesn't really matter as no booked crossings take place there now so everything could just use the faster up loop line in both directions.

Biggest problem will be getting all trains running on Monday when most staff don't sign the 'new route' yet. If the blockade is extended to Tuesday it would certainly be helpful in terms of getting more people trained up, but I imagine the pressure must be on to get the line back on Monday as advertised.

 

[EX BR]

The ERTMS level 2 is now running and working well so I am told.
The loop at Welshpool in now open and trains can run on both lines in either direction so that looks like fun.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The ERTMS level 2 is now running and working well so I am told.
The loop at Welshpool in now open and trains can run on both lines in either direction so that looks like fun.

Theirs been the normal tt operated today - but not for passengers. Everything bang on time. Looks like all systems go for tomorrow.

 

[the-gog]

Theirs been the normal tt operated today - but not for passengers. Everything bang on time. Looks like all systems go for tomorrow.

I've been down the bypass this pm and 158820 went north past me c. 17:35 and south again at 18:20 or so but on the Down line, not the Up. 158829 and 158825 passed Welshpool for Shrewsbury at 18:58. These aren't timetable paths.

 

[Railsigns]

Theirs been the normal tt operated today

There's been...

 

[the-gog]

Gen from a driver pal: they hope to run trains and not buses tomorrow, the Down part of the loop is limited to 30kph so they sent all trains down the Up line instead today.

 

[merlodlliw]

After yesterdays full timetable ran for ATW & NR(no pax), it seems OK today.

I did hear of a few bewildered passengers, asking why the bus when the trains are running today out of interest who will foot the costings for Sundays trains?


Bob

 

[the-gog]

Based on the times me and my friend observed yesterday's late pm trains, if they were running to a timetable, they were running 30 late. I went down Welshpool this morning to catch the 1J03 07.49 to Newtown to hopefully bash the new track, and it was schedule to come into Platform 2, the Down platform. It was 40 minutes late when it arrived, as it was 40 late leaving Shrewsbury due to "signalling problems". It came in on Platform 1, and was terminated at Mach, again due to "signalling problems", with no buses forward to Aberystwyth.

 

[The Planner]

It has all gone slightly the way of the pear this morning. Axle counter failures and DMI screen failures on the units. Over 160 minutes and counting on that delay....

264 now at 13:30
407 at 16:30, looks like a big bucket to shove reactionary delay.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The service seemed to deteriorate during the day, ending over an hour late each way with some cancellations at each end. Teething problems were to be expected, but are they recoverable? The impression I got (from NRES) was that the coast performed better than the main line.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Points failure at Talerddig this morning- the new 60 mph ones at Newtown end. Blades were sloshing back and forth in front of the 0730 ex Aberystwyth failing to lock. heard power supply has only 90 volts going into the mechanism incited of recommended 110 volts.

 

[seagull]

Yes, and also:

1) 09.30 Salop-Aber failed to 'transition' properly out of Sutton Bridge, train over an hour late into Mach and terminated there at 12.00.

2) Ongoing problems reported at Aberystwyth causing delays owing to unable to access GSM-R and therefore unable to get movement authorities.

2) 05.15 Mach-Pwllheli unable to get movement authority from Barmouth, ended up 1 hour late from Pwllheli;

3) this caused the 06.25 Pwllheli-Mach to also be delayed at Porthmadog and then run 1 hour late from Porthmadog in the path of the next train (the one mentioned above).

4) the beleaguered return of the 05.15 encountered level crossing problems at Harlech, further delaying it, and then Barmouth also;

5) the resultant delays caused the 09.36 Pwllheli-Mach to lose 20 minutes or so.

Apart from that it was a great morning on the Cambrian...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did a turn down the Cambrian today.
Waited 5min overtime at Welshpool, but all recovered with a fast run through the down loop at Talerddig, 4 early at Aberystwyth.
Return not so good with 10min overtime having just left Machynlleth and a slow run to Cemmaes Road, then a stand in the loop at Talerddig waiting for the the new points to be moved manually. 20min down at Shrewsbury.

I then waited for the BHI-HHD and to cut a long story short this was split in the platform with the conductor complaining that the driver had to reboot the 158's ERTMS computer after a split/join and that took 5 minutes they didn't need before. Thus our Holyhead-bound service was collecting delays due to ERTMS, even though it went nowhere near the Cambrian.

Also does anybody know what the signs like "40/80" on a black background are?
I suspect they are speed limits in km/h but it's odd there are no signs with higher than 80 (ie 50mph) on them. Have I got it wrong?

Richard

 

[The Planner]

If ERTMS chucks a fit everytime there is a split or join then dark clouds will loom, you'll never get a timetable to work. Hopefully it is bedding in problems.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Strange suituation at Aberystwyth earlier, the board was saying the 5:25 arrival was delayed by 16mins but claiming that the 5:30 departure was only delayed by 5mins. I can't remember what time it did actually arrive, but it didn't leave by 5:35.

 

[seagull]

Also does anybody know what the signs like "40/80" on a black background are?
I suspect they are speed limits in km/h but it's odd there are no signs with higher than 80 (ie 50mph) on them. Have I got it wrong?

You are correct, they are speed limits in kph. The reason none are higher than 80 kph is because the signs only apply to trains when they are in degraded/isolated mode, and in those modes of operation the maximum permitted speed is 80 kph, for a passenger train. The lower speed applies to engineering trains etc.
Under normal ERTMS operation the driver will ignore the signs, basically.

Strange suituation at Aberystwyth earlier, the board was saying the 5:25 arrival was delayed by 16mins but claiming that the 5:30 departure was only delayed by 5mins. I can't remember what time it did actually arrive, but it didn't leave by 5:35.

It's because in the timetable the Mach departure to Aber is at xx.49 (usually) and with a 30 min running time it makes the Aber working time arrival therefore xx.19 or thereabouts. The reason the public arrival time is shown as xx.25 is to allow those vital few extra passenger charter 'aren't we good at running on-time trains' minutes at end of journey.
So with an xx.19 arrival, you can see that a 16 minute late train would then have an expected departure of xx.35, although in reality a 0 minute turnround is impossible, especially with ERTMS having to boot up.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You are correct, they are speed limits in kph. The reason none are higher than 80 kph is because the signs only apply to trains when they are in degraded/isolated mode, and in those modes of operation the maximum permitted speed is 80 kph, for a passenger train. The lower speed applies to engineering trains etc.
Under normal ERTMS operation the driver will ignore the signs, basically.

I see, all clear now, thanks. Would have been nice to see a "130" (=80mph)!

 

[Gareth Marston]

You are correct, they are speed limits in kph. The reason none are higher than 80 kph is because the signs only apply to trains when they are in degraded/isolated mode, and in those modes of operation the maximum permitted speed is 80 kph, for a passenger train. The lower speed applies to engineering trains etc.
Under normal ERTMS operation the driver will ignore the signs, basically.




It's because in the timetable the Mach departure to Aber is at xx.49 (usually) and with a 30 min running time it makes the Aber working time arrival therefore xx.19 or thereabouts. The reason the public arrival time is shown as xx.25 is to allow those vital few extra passenger charter 'aren't we good at running on-time trains' minutes at end of journey.
So with an xx.19 arrival, you can see that a 16 minute late train would then have an expected departure of xx.35, although in reality a 0 minute turnround is impossible, especially with ERTMS having to boot up.

Haven't we seem some good time recovery this week- showing how much slack is in ATW's timetable combined with some speed restrictions being done away with. trains have been departing 15 late and gaining 10 minutes according to TRUST screens I've seen. Will we go back to BR's 105 minute schedules from Aber to Salop? or will ATW use the gains to pad out the timetable further? 118 minutes today same stops.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You are correct, they are speed limits in kph. The reason none are higher than 80 kph is because the signs only apply to trains when they are in degraded/isolated mode, and in those modes of operation the maximum permitted speed is 80 kph, for a passenger train. The lower speed applies to engineering trains etc.
Under normal ERTMS operation the driver will ignore the signs, basically.

Thanks, that clears that up. I was wondering why speed signs were going up where there weren't any before considering ETCS supposedly gives you the current linespeed on your dashboard.

It's because in the timetable the Mach departure to Aber is at xx.49 (usually) and with a 30 min running time it makes the Aber working time arrival therefore xx.19 or thereabouts. The reason the public arrival time is shown as xx.25 is to allow those vital few extra passenger charter 'aren't we good at running on-time trains' minutes at end of journey.
So with an xx.19 arrival, you can see that a 16 minute late train would then have an expected departure of xx.35, although in reality a 0 minute turnround is impossible, especially with ERTMS having to boot up.

I know that there's timetable padding, and think it is a good idea (though I think spreading it out to give 1 or 2 minites padding at several key stations instead of 5 in all one lump at the end would be better). That said, I would have thought they would take their padding into account when telling passengers what the delay is, so as not to make it appear to the passenger (who probablly has no way of getting hold of the working timetable, I've tried to get the one for the Fishguard out of google in the past to no avail) that a train is expected to depart before it arrives.

I hope this ERTMS mess straightens itself out soon. How come it works in Europe (and apparently for a year between Pwllheli and Harlech) but not on the Cambrian main line, the lower half of the coast line or ERTMS fitted 158s that aren't even on the Cambrian? Aparently the refurbished 158s are being completly re-wired, is this being done to fix ERTMS? If so, it's going to be a long wait before the service will be relible.

 

[The Planner]

Trains recover bucket loads of minutes currently because they are working to the RETB timetable, therefore the dwells for token exchange are longer than now needed, you are faster through Talerddig etc. there is no way we would introduce a timetable on a relatively unproven signalling system to reflect what it can do straight away. You would always gain 5 minutes into Aberystwyth anyway as that is the PB differential.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Trains recover bucket loads of minutes currently because they are working to the RETB timetable, therefore the dwells for token exchange are longer than now needed, you are faster through Talerddig etc. there is no way we would introduce a timetable on a relatively unproven signalling system to reflect what it can do straight away. You would always gain 5 minutes into Aberystwyth anyway as that is the PB differential.

Agree not straight away until ertms beds down but if we don't get the extra services then at least we could gain some time in future timetables off the back of this.

 

[Rhydgaled]

At about 12:30, a Lloyds Coaches (Machynlleth based firm) rail replacment coach arrived at Aberystwyth, has there been problems on the Cambrian again? If so, then I'm guessing by the company operating the coach it only took over from the train from Machynlleth, but that suggests it takes an hour longer to get from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth by coach than by train.

The alternative would be that, due to shortage of units, they have made an hourly 'rail' service by using rail replacement coaches

 

[Gareth Marston]

At about 12:30, a Lloyds Coaches (Machynlleth based firm) rail replacment coach arrived at Aberystwyth, has there been problems on the Cambrian again? If so, then I'm guessing by the company operating the coach it only took over from the train from Machynlleth, but that suggests it takes an hour longer to get from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth by coach than by train.

The alternative would be that, due to shortage of units, they have made an hourly 'rail' service by using rail replacement coaches

1809 ex BHM INTL was on time to Shrewsbury 40 late at Newtown tonight.
ATW view on it is that problems were expected, its not as bad as they thought it might be and the delay minutes each day are on a downward trend.