Welsh Rail Reform

[YorkRailFan]

The Welsh Government has outlined their plans for Rail reform in the Wales & Borders region, with their priorities including:

developing a ‘locally driven and empowered’ business unit for Great British Railways in Wales;
delivering on commitments to create a Welsh enhancements programme;
giving Wales a greater say on the specification of cross-border services.

Welsh government sets out rail reform priorities

UK: The Welsh government's priorities for rail reform have been discussed in a meeting between Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Transport & North Wales Ken Skates and UK government Rail Minister Lord Hendy. Priorities include: developing a 'locally driven and empowered' business unit for Great...

www.railwaygazette.com

Sounds like the Welsh Government wants TFW to remain a separate brand under GBR, like Scotrail. Hopefully the "Welsh enhancements programme" includes upgrading certain railway line in Wales, perhaps including electrification, to allow for longer trains, and higher frequencies.

 

[anthony263]

They need to improve services. Hourly swanline all day please. Long called for

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I do think TFW should be allowed to run a service into Bristol TM plus this additional service between Cardiff and Birmingham should be an extension of TFWs Cheltenham service

 

[Topological]

If we are throwing out speculative TfW thoughts:

Cardiff* - Hereford - Birmingham to add an extra service between Newport and Hereford and enable more stops at places like Pontypool and New Inn. Birmingham leg taken over from WMT
Cardiff* - Bristol Temple Meads (EMU) to serve more stops on the GWML (would be Parkway until they get the wires to Bristol)

It would be good to see an ambitious TfW that acted along the lines of Scotrail. However, I suspect this is just about making sure that Wales maintains an identity and does not become subsumed in a predominantly English GBR.

* Ideally somewhere West of Cardiff, but the EMU would be limited. The DMU could be the Swanline train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wonder whether Messrs Skates and Hendy discussed the Sunak-proposed North Wales electrification?
Hendy first proposed this in his UK connectivity report to the Tory DfT, to better link Wales/Ireland and England.
The former Welsh transport minister (Lee Waters) poured scorn on it, the gist being that DfT should give the £1 billion funding (ex-HS2 budget) to WG who would decide where/how to spend it - and not on NW electrification.
Skates always struck me as a capable minister with good rail knowledge (he was in charge of the last Wales & Borders franchise procurement), and is a North Wales AM with a regional brief.
But I suspect such big projects and policies are above both their pay grades.
I really don't know what the new Welsh First Minister (Eluned Morgan) thinks, or Louise Haigh for that matter.
They will have to pronounce on big infrastructure projects soon, certainly by the time of the budget (October 30).

 

[Bob Price]

The North Wales electrification was never anything more than a political stunt. HS2 was funded by borrowing. There never was any money to be transferred.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Intrigued that they want it to be part of GBR rather than fully devolved...perhaps a desire for English funding?

 

[WAB]

Intrigued that they want it to be part of GBR rather than fully devolved...perhaps a desire for English funding?

The prospect of the NR spending bill for Wales landing on their doorstep probably wouldn't fill them with glee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

Also, I suspect this perhaps reflects that the borders part of TfW provides important services for England so working together is more attractive. In contrast, the network in Scotland is already largely-segregated so going for a more isolationist approach up there would have less of an impact.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

The prospect of the NR spending bill for Wales landing on their doorstep probably wouldn't fill them with glee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

Also, I suspect this perhaps reflects that the borders part of TfW provides important services for England so working together is more attractive. In contrast, the network in Scotland is already largely-segregated so going for a more isolationist approach up there would have less of an impact.

That is a reasonable point. The rail network in Wales in quite different to Scotland, as it not contiguous, and divided into the north wales lines, the cambrian lines and the south wales lines. As these lines go through England, it is in their interests to work with England, and not against England.
On top of that, the welsh government are unionists, unlike the nationalist and separatist Scottish government trying to diverge more, and actively withdraw some of their english services, including that Newcastle service that used to run, and now their only english station is Carlisle itself, whereas TfW has countless stations in England by cobreast, many of which they manage.

 

[Transilien]

withdraw some of their english services

There was only ever one Scotrail service to Newcastle and it was only a few tpd. It wasn't even the fastest way to reach Newcastle from most places in Scotland.

 

[Caaardiff]

If we are throwing out speculative TfW thoughts:

Cardiff* - Hereford - Birmingham to add an extra service between Newport and Hereford and enable more stops at places like Pontypool and New Inn. Birmingham leg taken over from WMT
Cardiff* - Bristol Temple Meads (EMU) to serve more stops on the GWML (would be Parkway until they get the wires to Bristol)

It would be good to see an ambitious TfW that acted along the lines of Scotrail. However, I suspect this is just about making sure that Wales maintains an identity and does not become subsumed in a predominantly English GBR.

* Ideally somewhere West of Cardiff, but the EMU would be limited. The DMU could be the Swanline train.

I've always thought TFW should extend the Cheltenham service to Birmingham, but I quite like the suggestion of TFW taking over Birmingham - Hereford and continuing all stops to Cardiff.
I think Cardiff - Bristol is an aspiration of TFW with the proposal of the new stations east of Newport. There was even talk of the 769s doing it until a possible new order of more 231's or 756's. It would be better to have a Swansea - Bristol service though.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I've always thought TFW should extend the Cheltenham service to Birmingham, but I quite like the suggestion of TFW taking over Birmingham - Hereford and continuing all stops to Cardiff.
I think Cardiff - Bristol is an aspiration of TFW with the proposal of the new stations east of Newport. There was even talk of the 769s doing it until a possible new order of more 231's or 756's. It would be better to have a Swansea - Bristol service though.

With that Cheltenham point, i am personally not so sure about that sort of idea, given the whole service then extends west of Cardiff to Maesteg, and its generally a stopping service, so i'm not sure how practical it would be to extend the service quite a decent way north, without altering current stopping patterns, or changing the rolling stick, because any 2 or 3 car diesel trains into Birmingham is an overcrowding disaster waiting to happen. On top of that, it would be much slower overall, so its probably not worth it. Maybe a better idea would be so its not just an unnecessary duplication, maybe extending it as far as Worcester, maybe Shrub Hill with an extended bay platform ideally would be the most practical, and provide extra services into Wales.

 

[geoffk]

With that Cheltenham point, i am personally not so sure about that sort of idea, given the whole service then extends west of Cardiff to Maesteg, and its generally a stopping service, so i'm not sure how practical it would be to extend the service quite a decent way north, without altering current stopping patterns, or changing the rolling stick, because any 2 or 3 car diesel trains into Birmingham is an overcrowding disaster waiting to happen. On top of that, it would be much slower overall, so its probably not worth it. Maybe a better idea would be so its not just an unnecessary duplication, maybe extending it as far as Worcester, maybe Shrub Hill with an extended bay platform ideally would be the most practical, and provide extra services into Wales.

On the other hand it would be a way of providing a service from Ashchurch to Birmingham, something which XC has refused to do, apart from a handful of journeys - and extra stops at WOP. But paths into New Street would surely be a problem.

 

[JonathanH]

On the other hand it would be a way of providing a service from Ashchurch to Birmingham, something which XC has refused to do, apart from a handful of journeys - and extra stops at WOP. But paths into New Street would surely be a problem.

That really isn't a problem that we should be looking at Transport for Wales to fix. The more appropriate solution is the fabled XC Bristol to Birmingham semi-fast service, which would allow CrossCountry to have fewer stops on its Cardiff service.

 

[geoffk]

That really isn't a problem that we should be looking at Transport for Wales to fix. The more appropriate solution is the fabled XC Bristol to Birmingham semi-fast service, which would allow CrossCountry to have fewer stops on its Cardiff service.

Yes that's a better solution, but not sure which stops XC could omit on its Cardiff service, other than University, which would be picked up by a service from Bristol.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

On the other hand it would be a way of providing a service from Ashchurch to Birmingham, something which XC has refused to do, apart from a handful of journeys - and extra stops at WOP. But paths into New Street would surely be a problem.

Well there would be that advantage. The reason I suggested Worcester Shrub Hill is because that could offer connections for onward journeys into Birmingham, but a direct service would obviously be desirable, just maybe not possible given more paths would be needed, and that probably not possible at Birmingham New Street, maybe until HS2 opens someday and could replace some terminating services, clearing that space for extra CrossCountry or Transport for Wales trains.

Yes that's a better solution, but not sure which stops XC could omit on its Cardiff service, other than University, which would be picked up by a service from Bristol.

Indeed. However, there really arent that many stops that you could remove in practice, given most trains already pass through Ashchurch, and Worcestershire Parkway would be a white elephant if it didn't have services to destinations which could not otherwise be reached from either Worcester Shrub Hill or Foregate Street. Cheltenham and Gloucester are probably too major to cut out many angry responses from local officials. And the stops between Gloucester and Newport are to increase the frequency at those stations, which would otherwise have only hourly services, so you would get the same problems with officials complaining of cutbacks to services. Maybe an idea could be to have TfW put on another service between Gloucester and Newport, potentially extending in either or both directions, and that way CrossCountry could cut those stations out completely and save probably ~5 minutes of journey time.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

On top of that, the welsh government are unionists, unlike the nationalist and separatist Scottish government trying to diverge more,

It's a bit more complex than that. Skates, the transport secretary, was appointed by the disgraced and now departed FM Vaughan Gething and both are on the "Unionist" wing of Welsh Labour. Their predecessors Lee Waters and Mark Drakeford were on the "Nationalist" or "Devolutionist" wing of the party and would likely have pursued a different policy.

As so often in Wales, it's all about the internal politics of the Labour party which, unlike its Scottish equivelant, contains many supporters of independance.

 

[anthony263]

It's a bit more complex than that. Skates, the transport secretary, was appointed by the disgraced and now departed FM Vaughan Gething and both are on the "Unionist" wing of Welsh Labour. Their predecessors Lee Waters and Mark Drakeford were on the "Nationalist" or "Devolutionist" wing of the party and would likely have pursued a different policy.

As so often in Wales, it's all about the internal politics of the Labour party which, unlike its Scottish equivelant, contains many supporters of independance.

At the moment now welsh labour has been too busy fighting itself. There's a lot in labour especially younger members who demanding a much better deal for Wales including money owed to us over the hs2 scheme.

Electrification does need to be extended to checkout of Cardiff as well as west to Swansea possibly Carmarthen.

Eventually I think the marches between Newport and Crewe needs to wired.

More 756s and improved services to Abergavenny. Cheltenham, Bristol TM and Swansea is a must.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

E

At the moment now welsh labour has been too busy fighting itself. There's a lot in labour especially younger members who demanding a much better deal for Wales including money owed to us over the hs2 scheme.

Electrification does need to be extended to checkout of Cardiff as well as west to Swansea possibly Carmarthen.

Eventually I think the marches between Newport and Crewe needs to wired.

More 756s and improved services to Abergavenny. Cheltenham, Bristol TM and Swansea is a must.

Electrification really would be of major benefit, given that the Marches line is pretty important given it literally has to connect North and South Wales, despite not even being in Wales for the most part. If the North Wales line is ever to be successfully electrified, then it makes sense to electrify major linking trunk routes as well, including the Marches line.

With that point about electrification west of Cardiff, I would say that for the most part, Swansea would be far enough at this point in time, given that is the terminus for many GWR services, and many of their trains are bi mode, so its probably more cost effective to get them to switch into diesel mode for the last part of their journeys into Carmarthen. Even for single mode trains, probably cutting certain services back to Swansea and replaced with diesel services terminating at Swansea could probably be acceptable if they are alligned for connections for journeys further east (or vice versa).

 

[I'm here now]

Electrification would be wonderful, especially if the trains that run on the existing South Wales Main Line electrified section were electric capable. Those class 231 really confuse me, running from Maesteg to Cheltenham, along a large section of OHLE line. Is there any reason to this?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would have thought the Skates-Hendy talks would be solely about how Wales and TfW will integrate with GBR.
Currently Wales can specify and run TfW itself (within some constraints from Westminster), but NR in Wales is not devolved (except the Core Valley Lines).
It isn't even a separate NR Region - it's a Route (which includes the Marches line in England) lumped in with Western.
Depending on how GBR is structured, that might change.
The impression I get is that Labour at Westminster wants greater alignment with GBR in Wales and Scotland, which might conflict with what Cardiff Bay/Holyrood want.

 

[Caaardiff]

Electrification would be wonderful, especially if the trains that run on the existing South Wales Main Line electrified section were electric capable. Those class 231 really confuse me, running from Maesteg to Cheltenham, along a large section of OHLE line. Is there any reason to this?

Under the current setup only about a quarter of the Maesteg - Cheltenham line is electrified, between Severn tunnel and Cardiff.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Hasn't there already been a lot of clearance for the OHLE to Swansea? As well as a little piling. Could be relatively straightforward to pick up again.

 

[anthony263]

Hasn't there already been a lot of clearance for the OHLE to Swansea? As well as a little piling. Could be relatively straightforward to pick up again.

Think a lot of work has been done yes same with Bristol TM

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Hasn't there already been a lot of clearance for the OHLE to Swansea? As well as a little piling. Could be relatively straightforward to pick up again.

Straight forward - but not cheap! International experience shows that continuous rolling programmes of electrification are much better VFM than the haphazard approach that occurs in the UK. South Wales is a particular mess where you have the main line electrified as far as Cardiff along with those of the Valley Lines that are owned by the Welsh Government but not those owned by the UK.

In order for the system to work at all it requires a mish-mash of tram-trains, bimodes, trimodes, DMUs and even a few loco- hauled trains.

 

[Meerkat]

The more control the Welsh government wants the bigger the issue of them running stations and services in England becomes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more control the Welsh government wants the bigger the issue of them running stations and services in England becomes.

This looks like them having rather less control, no? Or would they keep the TOC to themselves and just use GBR for the infrastructure?

 

[Meerkat]

This looks like them having rather less control, no? Or would they keep the TOC to themselves and just use GBR for the infrastructure?

“Developing a locally driven and empowered business unit for GBR”. Isn’t that pretty much the Scottish set up?