Welsh Language Act on Cambrian crossings

[krus_aragon]

This week's edition of Y Cymro (Welsh language weekly paper) carries an article on residential crossings on the Cambrian line. The issue raised (not for the first time, apparently) is the monolingual nature of the callbox services. A family living near the Ynys Fawr crossing at Penrhyndeudraeth say that despite the signallers being based at Machynlleth, and understand and are conversant in Welsh, Network Rail won't allow them to speak Welsh.

The main interviewee, Rhodri ap Gwyn, says he and his father before him have been seeking a change of practice for over thirty years. Last week, when they were seeking to cross the line, they called for permission, asking first in Welsh. The signaller responded in English that they are unable to provide information in Welsh. When asked why, they answered that it was "the company policy". On a second occasion, he was warned that the police would be contacted if he continued to speak Welsh on the phone.

Rhodri told the paper he feels there are safety issues for young children in this matter, and they should be able to ask if it's safe to cross in the language that they understand best.

At a crossing safety meeting held in Porthmadog last week, his sister, Mirain Gwenllian, raised the issue of the use of Welsh at crossings. Richard Hayden, Risk Reduction Coordinator at Network Rail, and Adam J Meredith of the ORR were in attendance, and gave a "lukewarm" response. When she played recordings of the conversations mentioned above, they were shocked at the threat of calling the police, and promised to look into the matter. They added, however, that that was indeed the company policy. Miriain meanwhile says she made it clear to them that she expects a bilingual service to be available, and holds them responsible for anything that may happen to her or her family in the meantime.

When contacted by the paper, Network Rail said they were in the process of developing their Welsh language policy, in order to comply with relevant legislation. As a part of that, they will be looking into the matter of the use of Welsh at railway crossings.

The paper also contacted the Welsh Language Board for comment. They confirmed that they had received letters on the issue, and have asked Network Rail a number of questions of a legal nature with regards to crossing rights, such as who owns the land, who has the right to cross, and any other special legal requirements. Once the legal context is clear, the WLB will consider whether Network Rail is complying with its legal obligations under the Welsh Language Measure 2011.

 

[Hydro]

As it stands, all signal box communication is recorded. In the event of an incident these recordings are analysed, which may explain why currently all comms must be in English. A threat to call the police is uncalled for, however a polite explanation of the situation of a recorded line should have been made.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Calling the police?
If they did that I would hope the coppers would warn the signallers about wasting police time.
I can understand things needing to be recorded, and thus needing to be in english (although they could just speak in welsh and then use a translator in the future if needed), threatening to call the police is just way OTT and uncalled for.

 

[boing_uk]

Miriain meanwhile says she made it clear to them that she expects a bilingual service to be available, and holds them responsible for anything that may happen to her or her family in the meantime.

I am presuming that this woman, and her children, can speak and understand perfectly good English - which given her attitude and the fact that she KNOWS that English is the only language in use, it is HER responsibility to act accordingly.

What a sad individual, threatening safety over a language issue which is really a non-issue when it comes down to it. I wonder if she ever leaves the country to visit England at all...

 

[bluenoxid]

We do not know the conversation where the police were threatened. You're managing quite a few miles of line and some prat is getting antsy on the phone because you're not speaking Welsh. Fair to say, you would assume that the said caller is ****ing around (having done it several times and been warned about it) and it is something that NR management would be doing in conjunction with the BTP to ensure that if action has to be taken, it would be a secure case for obstruction of the railway. When people are ****ing around at crossing phones, the police are called. Go down to your local one and tell them that you have a pet giant Tortoise and you want to cross. BTP will be turning up sooner rather than later.

NR has to decide whether the costs for going Welsh are worth it or whether safety communications should be done in English. What they may do is allow the signaller to do it in Welsh (as long as they are competent in the language) and repeat the instruction in English.

 

[jones_bangor]

I am presuming that this woman, and her children, can speak and understand perfectly good English - which given her attitude and the fact that she KNOWS that English is the only language in use, it is HER responsibility to act accordingly.

What a sad individual, threatening safety over a language issue which is really a non-issue when it comes down to it. I wonder if she ever leaves the country to visit England at all...

I think you're missing the point, the Welsh Language Act is meant to give equality to both languages. I'm sure this could be sorted out quite easily though as has been suggested previously. Network Rail, particularly as it is a large - effectively public - body, has clear obligations to do so.

 

[Greenback]

I think you're missing the point, the Welsh Language Act is meant to give equality to both languages. I'm sure this could be sorted out quite easily though as has been suggested previously. Network Rail, particularly as it is a large - effectively public - body, has clear obligations to do so.

Quite right. The idea that that conversations cannot happen in Welsh as they are recorded is a nonsense. As is the diea that it is somehow unsafe for a Welsh speaker to converse with another Welsh speaker without using English.

Nobody is suggesting that Welsh is compulsory, but it clearly should be allowed where both parties want to use it and are competent to do so. And Gwynedd is a strong Welsh speaking area, far more so than many other parts of Wales.

 

[boing_uk]

The Welsh Language Act provides equality for the Welsh language where it is reasonable and practicable to do so. It does not cover the private sector - the railways being a privatised operation, receipt of taxpayers money or not.

I am not against the use of Welsh, but to insist upon it being available is just wrong, particularly in a safety critical area and the possibility of non-Welsh speakers being employed.

 

[Greenback]

But to ban it when Welsh speakers are employed and available? That is wrong and possibly illegal. There is no safety issue, it's just company policy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Welsh Language Act provides equality for the Welsh language where it is reasonable and practicable to do so. It does not cover the private sector - the railways being a privatised operation, receipt of taxpayers money or not.
.

I note the wording "where it is reasonable and practical to do so". is there to cover any legally raised queries.

 

[WelshBluebird]

the railways being a privatised operation

Surely that very fact is very debatable?
Network rail was created by the government, from what I can tell has its debts guarenteed by the government and gets much of its financing from the government.
A quick check on wikipedia (yes, I know not the best source) also says that there certainly is a debate about it.

As said, it is not safety issue at all. If both the signaller and the person can speak welsh and is happy to do so, then there is no issue there at all. If the coversation has to be looked at in the future, then get a translater.

I am not against the use of Welsh, but to insist upon it being available is just wrong, particularly in a safety critical area and the possibility of non-Welsh speakers being employed.

You could also say:
To insit upon banning it is just wrong, particularly in an area where they could easily get a translator if needed, and the very high chance of Welsh speakers being employed (considering where it is).

 

[NSEFAN]

Network rail was created by the government, from what I can tell has its debts guarenteed by the government and gets much of its financing from the government.

Ahh but it is a private industry as soon as everything goes belly up! That way it is no longer the government's problem...

Is it only convention that only English is permitted? Surely the best option is to use whichever language both parties feel most comfortable with? As has been said, it is Wales: there is a good chance that the signallers will speak Welsh too.

 

[pdq]

I am presuming that this woman, and her children, can speak and understand perfectly good English

This isn't necessarily the case. I was on hols near Caernarfon at Easter and we were speaking to the owner of the cottage we were staying in. She was very clearly a 1st language Welsh speaker and only spoke English when necessary.

But more interestingly to this thread - her children were nearing secondary school age, and were only now starting to learn English as a 2nd language - in the same way as I learned French and German. This won't be uncommon in the more rural areas of Wales, so it seems sensible to me that a public body ought to be able to communicate effectively with all members of its intended community, whatever age they are - especially in safety-related areas such as crossings.

 

[PR1Berske]

I am presuming that this woman, and her children, can speak and understand perfectly good English - which given her attitude and the fact that she KNOWS that English is the only language in use, it is HER responsibility to act accordingly.

What a sad individual, threatening safety over a language issue which is really a non-issue when it comes down to it. I wonder if she ever leaves the country to visit England at all...

Nobody is sad for wanting to speak their own language or enjoy their own culture. The fact that a Welsh woman wants to speak her national language in her own country is not "sad".

This issue should - must - be resolved.

 

[snail]

I am not against the use of Welsh, but to insist upon it being available is just wrong, particularly in a safety critical area and the possibility of non-Welsh speakers being employed.

Surely the possibility of local native Welsh speakers using the crossing makes being able to communicate in Welsh very safety critical? It's not like catering for tourists who may not speak the local language. What if there is a problem that the Welsh speaker can't communicate clearly to the signal box in English?

 

[WestCoast]

This situation reminds me of an opposite situation, although it isn't directly comparable at all. The language of Air Traffic Control is English, but controllers in France are permitted to speak French to French registered aircraft.

The problem occurred when another aircraft with English-speaking pilots couldn't understand instructions (for a French aircraft) which would direct affect them. So, there was an accident as they didn't realise the maneuver.

 

[snail]

Yes it could work the other way I guess, if the signal box gave some complicated advice in English that a Welsh speaker may misunderstand.

 

[boing_uk]

Yes it could work the other way I guess, if the signal box gave some complicated advice in English that a Welsh speaker may misunderstand.

But more interestingly to this thread - her children were nearing secondary school age, and were only now starting to learn English as a 2nd language - in the same way as I learned French and German. This won't be uncommon in the more rural areas of Wales, so it seems sensible to me that a public body ought to be able to communicate effectively with all members of its intended community, whatever age they are - especially in safety-related areas such as crossings.

But then the same advice could be said for other areas of the country, where a significant portion of the local population may use English as a second language.

And are instructions for a user worked crossing going to be all that complex?

As I said, fine if both signaller and user speak fluent Welsh, then go for it. But there are also plenty of people in Wales where Welsh is the second language.

And with regards to the children, they are not going to be unable to speak English. Even Gwynedd County Council recognise that kids from Welsh backgrounds, by Year 3 can speak pretty good English and by Year 6 tend to use it socially more than Welsh.

Of course, if the woman is that concerned about her childrens safety, perhaps she should take responsibility for that. She is aware of the issue, but to publicly take the stance of "well it will be NR's fault if something goes wrong" just doesnt cut the mustard.

 

[Trog]

I seem to remember there being an accident some years ago where a Welsh speaking supervisor and tamper driver discussed the job in Welsh. When the supervisors tamper, and the welsh speaking drivers tamper slowed down at a level crossing, a third tamper driven by an English only speaking driver who had not fully understood what was being said ran into the back of them. I wonder if the English only rule comes from that or a similar accident, and was originally intended for railway internal safety conversations?

 

[asylumxl]

I could understand if they were saying they can't speak Welsh at all, but to be angry because the signalers wish to speak English? Seriously?

She talks of equality, but the way I see it she does not want equality, and is discriminating against English speakers.

 

[Greenback]

I could understand if they were saying they can't speak Welsh at all, but to be angry because the signalers wish to speak English? Seriously?

She talks of equality, but the way I see it she does not want equality, and is discriminating against English speakers.

You seem to have the wrong end of the stick. The complaint is that NR are prohibiting Welsh speaking staff from choosing to communicate with WQelsh speaking members of the public in their language of choice. So they are actually saying that they can't speak Welsh.

No one is tlaking about forcing others to speak the language, the only people being forced to do something against their will here are the Welsh speakers.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don't know how many welsh speakers there are in Machynlleth Signalling Centre- the ertms system has increased the overall number of them - nearly tripled I'm told - and they now might not be predominately local which was the case in retb days and from before. So "assuming" that there'll be someone welsh speaking at the other end of the phone just because its in Machynlleth is perhaps erroneous. I worked in an office in Machynlleth for three and half years in my section there were 4 Welsh speakers and 3 non. No prizes for guessing what happened at lunchtime or when a number of colleagues were out the office when the phone rang!

There's also the issue of whether the other signallers/drivers in communication with the centre who overhead the conversation would understand the nature of it.

 

[Greenback]

I don't know how many welsh speakers there are in Machynlleth Signalling Centre- the ertms system has increased the overall number of them - nearly tripled I'm told - and they now might not be predominately local which was the case in retb days and from before. So "assuming" that there'll be someone welsh speaking at the other end of the phone just because its in Machynlleth is perhaps erroneous. I worked in an office in Machynlleth for three and half years in my section there were 4 Welsh speakers and 3 non. No prizes for guessing what happened at lunchtime or when a number of colleagues were out the office when the phone rang!

There's also the issue of whether the other signallers/drivers in communication with the centre who overhead the conversation would understand the nature of it.

You make a good point about the possible increase in non welsh speakers at Machynlleth. However, the issue for me is whether a Welsh speaking signaller should be prevented from using the language to a Welsh speaking member of the public, should the latter wish it and the former be fluent in the language.

 

[asylumxl]

You seem to have the wrong end of the stick. The complaint is that NR are prohibiting Welsh speaking staff from choosing to communicate with WQelsh speaking members of the public in their language of choice. So they are actually saying that they can't speak Welsh..

Yes but it's just to ask if it's safe to cross. I just think that's minor and she's making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[CosherB]

Are we sure there are no safety issues in speaking Welsh? Does the language contain words that can convey the semi-technical nature of inter-signalbox comms in a clear and unambiguous way?

It is true that Air Traffic comms is in English, and this is so every pilot on frequency can build a mental picture of the traffic in the air and on the ground at any airfield.

It is traditional for French local airfields to converse in French and to ignore any English transmissions. But this is not safe - the pilot of a UK airliner was killed when a French controller at Paris (so not a local field) gave a take off clearance in French to a French aircraft while the UK aircraft was about to cross that runway. The pilot who lost his life in the subsequent ground collision would almost certainly have lived had the transmissions been in English, making him aware of the traffic conflict.

 

[j0hn0]

Ultimately though, she is in Wales, not England. Yes she is being stubborn but realistically, Welsh is a language in it's own right, it is the national language of Wales.

There isn't such a propensity of Welsh speakers thanks to the wonderful English who have attempted to almost eradicate the entire language, ah, so proud to be British and oppressive, not!

At some point the Welsh have to take a stand. It is down to Network Rail to ensure that people in the right places can speak the language. If they own the railways in that country then it is their responsibility.

I remember some Dutch and German firms speaking perfect english, but refused to give advice as it could be mis-interpreted or wrongly spoken.

There is no excuse for not speaking welsh if that's where you live and work, companies should do the same

 

[BestWestern]

There is no excuse for not speaking welsh if that's where you live and work, companies should do the same

There is every 'excuse' - or, more correctly, valid reason - for using a single universal language in a safety critical situation where it is essential for messages to be conveyed accurately. The issues surrounding the Welsh language are by their very nature contentious and politically sensitive, but the simple fact of the matter is that English is the generally accepted language spoken by the Welsh population by and large. It therefore makes perfect sense for NR to stipulate that its staff must use that language for their safety critical communications, as is the case throughout the rest of the company.

The problem of granting exceptions for the use of alternative dialect 'where appropriate' is that it removes the clarity of clear communication. How does a 'Bobby' know that the person on the other end of the phone is fluent in Welsh and will understand his/her instructions in full?

If somebody just as stubborn as the family in the above story, but not as skilled in their native language, comes along and gets the wrong end of the stick, what happens then; would it be worth all the chaos, disruption and grief of a fatality, just to appease a small number of the population?
How does NR know that it's staff are fully fluent; should the company now be required to have its employees sitting language exams before taking up work?

And does the Welsh language have an appropriate word for all the required railway terminology? If it doesn't, do NR invent their own words? Or do we have a conversation half in Welsh and half in English, rendering the whole thing completely superfluous anyway? Do we have two different versions of the phonetic alphabet? And how is that safe, when a Signaller starts using the wrong one and totally baffles the person at the other end?

It is not the responsibility of NR to satisfy the setimental needs of a small minority of the population, however justified those people may feel that their arguments are. As for the plain stupid comment by the lady concerned, that she would hold NR responsible for mishaps involving her daughter resulting from her insistance in not using English, I very much doubt a coroner would agree that such ignorant stubborn bloody mindedness was an acceptable attitude for a responsible to take.

 

[Greenback]

Why do people think that English would not be allowed? It would merely be the choice of the people concerned which they language they use, and both sides would obviously have to be confident and fluent in Welsh.

Welsh is a first language for quite a few people in the area. Why should a telephone conversation between two fluent speakers have to be carried out in a language they prefer not to use?

As to the phonetic alpahbet, I'm not sure where that comes into it? What happens if I phoen and ask if it iss afe to cross the line at a crossing? Yankee, Echo, Sierra? There are people who would be as baffled by that as if the signaller was talking Welsh anyway.

 

[CosherB]

Travel ATW and the on-board destination indicators have made-up (I presume) Welsh names for English places well away from Wales, such as Crewe and Manchester (but not Wilmslow, strangely).

Now Crewe was so-named by the LNWR when it built a junction in the middle of nowhere at Monks Coppenhall, taking inspiration from nearby Crewe hall.

So why have a Welsh name for the place? It's just 'Crewe', shurely? Isn't this taking nationalism a tad too far?

 

[snail]

There is every 'excuse' - or, more correctly, valid reason - for using a single universal language in a safety critical situation where it is essential for messages to be conveyed accurately. The issues surrounding the Welsh language are by their very nature contentious and politically sensitive, but the simple fact of the matter is that English is the generally accepted language spoken by the Welsh population by and large. It therefore makes perfect sense for NR to stipulate that its staff must use that language for their safety critical communications, as is the case throughout the rest of the company.

It's not the 'generally accepted language' in that part of Wales. Your safety critical argument is fine in a professional context, but falls down when dealing with members of the public. Some of whom may not speak good English, yet be able to speak the native language of their own country, in their own country.

Comparisons have been drawn with air traffic control being in English, but that is purely for professional contact. When I get on a KLM flight the first announcements are usually in Dutch, followed by English. That's because passengers may like to hear them in their own language, and may even understand them better!