Welsh Govt re prioritisation of Rail

[merlodlliw]

Edwina Hart, WG Minister with rail in her portfolio will announce another re prioritisation of the welsh governments national transport plan in plenary on 9th July.

I am told from reliable sources the dual tracking to allow more trains into Wrexham to assist families to get to the new 2000 inmate super jail, to be built on Wrexham Industrial Estate, (building starts next year) will confirm the dual tracking to go ahead. The dual tracking, with more trains into Wrexham, was part of the bid to get the Super Jail into Wrexham - plus 1000 jobs to service the super jail.

 

[Ironside]

Edwina Hart, WG Minister with rail in her portfolio will announce another re prioritisation of the welsh governments national transport plan in plenary on 9th July.

I am told from reliable sources the dual tracking to allow more trains into Wrexham to assist families to get to the new 2000 inmate super jail, to be built on Wrexham Industrial Estate, (building starts next year) will confirm the dual tracking to go ahead. The dual tracking, with more trains into Wrexham, was part of the bid to get the Super Jail into Wrexham - plus 1000 jobs to service the super jail.

Could you clarify the extent of the dualing of track, ie from where to Wrexham is to be doubled?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Edwina Hart, WG Minister with rail in her portfolio will announce another re prioritisation of the welsh governments national transport plan in plenary on 9th July.

I am told from reliable sources the dual tracking to allow more trains into Wrexham to assist families to get to the new 2000 inmate super jail, to be built on Wrexham Industrial Estate, (building starts next year) will confirm the dual tracking to go ahead. The dual tracking, with more trains into Wrexham, was part of the bid to get the Super Jail into Wrexham - plus 1000 jobs to service the super jail.

I hope they improve bus connections with the industrial estate where the prison will be - currently a very awkward 5 miles by public transport.
It's a pity the Cambrian line from Wrexham Central to Ellesmere (which linked into the estate) closed in 1962!

 

[PHILIPE]

Could you clarify the extent of the dualing of track, ie from where to Wrexham is to be doubled?

I don't think the section down Gresford Bank is being dualled but just between and Saltney. Gresford bank has had subsidence problems in the past going back to the time when it was double track.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I hope they improve bus connections with the industrial estate where the prison will be - currently a very awkward 5 miles by public transport.
It's a pity the Cambrian line from Wrexham Central to Ellesmere (which linked into the estate) closed in 1962!

GHA coaches run an hourly service To the estate i believe. Wrexhams bus station is a bit of a treck from Wrexham General if your not able bodied.

The Wrexham to Ellesmere line never linked into the estate which is somewhat surprising given it started life as a munitions production facility in WW2. The trackbed is about 2 fields away from the southern edge of the estate. It's remarkably intact apart from in centre of Wrexham itself, it stayed open for freight until 1981 for a brickworks and a cadburys facility near Marchwiel.

The estate if you don't know it is huge 2 miles north to south by 1 mile east to west.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think the section down Gresford Bank is being dualled but just between and Saltney. Gresford bank has had subsidence problems in the past going back to the time when it was double track.

Saltney Jnc to Rosset will be re dualled.

 

[PHILIPE]

Sorry. Omitted Rossett which is at the bottom of Gresford Bank from my post.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Wrexham to Ellesmere line never linked into the estate which is somewhat surprising given it started life as a munitions production facility in WW2. The trackbed is about 2 fields away from the southern edge of the estate. It's remarkably intact apart from in centre of Wrexham itself, it stayed open for freight until 1981 for a brickworks and a cadburys facility near Marchwiel.
The estate if you don't know it is huge 2 miles north to south by 1 mile east to west.

My 1947 GWR Atlas shows a long siding into the estate from the Cambrian.
It started (facing Wrexham) at Marchwiel Factory SB at mp9.23 (from Ellesmere), and then did a large S loop to the ordnance factory.
You can still trace some of the route of the siding, but most of it has been obliterated by new works and road realignments.
It's easier to see on Google Maps than it is on the ground!

You are right about the size of the place. I have never been there without getting lost.
Despite having just gained a dual-carriageway link from the A483, the site is one of the most confusing estates in the country.
It has concentric roads with cross links, some of which are incomplete or terminate in the middle of nowhere.
The road pattern changes all the time as they build/demolish sites, so no map is ever up to date, and the resident firms keep changing their names.
There are North and South sections but often no obvious way of getting from one to the other.
It needs a central point of reference and a few "You are Here" signs.
Hopefully the prison will be unmissable!

 

[merlodlliw]

GHA coaches run an hourly service To the estate i believe. Wrexhams bus station is a bit of a treck from Wrexham General if your not able bodied.

The Wrexham to Ellesmere line never linked into the estate which is somewhat surprising given it started life as a munitions production facility in WW2. The trackbed is about 2 fields away from the southern edge of the estate. It's remarkably intact apart from in centre of Wrexham itself, it stayed open for freight until 1981 for a brickworks and a cadburys facility near Marchwiel.

The estate if you don't know it is huge 2 miles north to south by 1 mile east to west.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Saltney Jnc to Rosset will be re dualled.

From what I gather,Arriva & GHA bus Companies will service the Super Prison,getting families of inmates and staff via Wrexham General & town without their own transport was part of the bid, I agree with Gareth in size Wrexham Industral Estate is the largest in the UK if not Europe,its vast,but with a poor bus service at present.
The dual line will run Rossett to Saltney,
On Friday Both the local dailies Wrexham Leader & Daily Post ran specials on the Prison coming to Wrexham.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps it's intentional, so that anyone who manages to escape from the prison never makes it out of the estate?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Perhaps it's intentional, so that anyone who manages to escape from the prison never makes it out of the estate?

A bit like The Prisoner then, but without the attractive architecture!

 

[cle]

So how much of the line will be single, from Shrewsbury to Chester?
Will there be any line speed or frequency improvements?

This seems a very localised, small boost - what else are the Assembly doing which would constitute 're-prioritising' rail?

 

[TDK]

So how much of the line will be single, from Shrewsbury to Chester?
Will there be any line speed or frequency improvements?

This seems a very localised, small boost - what else are the Assembly doing which would constitute 're-prioritising' rail?

Single line will be from Wrexham North Junction to Rossett, the line speed is being enhances to 75 from Saltney to Green lane then 90 from Green Lane to Rossett, 75 from Rossett to Croess Newydd and then 90 thereafter however I cannot see it being 90 over the viaducts or in the ruabon area due to the track layout

 

[pablo]

I had a a part in re-building the Cadbury's factory for the MMB as a creamery in 1973. No track existed then because I walked as far as the bridge over the Dee one lunch-time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So how much of the line will be single, from Shrewsbury to Chester?
Will there be any line speed or frequency improvements?

This seems a very localised, small boost - what else are the Assembly doing which would constitute 're-prioritising' rail?

It come under a plan called "North-South Journey Time Improvements".
This includes a line speed upgrade Wrexham-Shrewsbury (mostly 70-90) and signalling changes on Anglesey (compensating for the loss of the signal box at Ty Croes and resultant long section).
The remaining single section Rossett-Gresford will be 2.3 miles long (the Wrexham end will be shrunk a bit) and the line speed and turnouts will be 75mph.
Saltney Junction will also be doubled.
Should be a significant improvement.
There are no immediate plans for extra services, but the existing ones may well be retimed - better connections at Shrewsbury have been mentioned.

 

[Ivo]

Are we expcting anything else to be announced as part of this?

N.B.: Trafford Park is bigger

 

[PHILIPE]

I hope they improve bus connections with the industrial estate where the prison will be - currently a very awkward 5 miles by public transport.
It's a pity the Cambrian line from Wrexham Central to Ellesmere (which linked into the estate) closed in 1962!

The former line to Whitchurch via Ellesmere was truncated at Wrexham Central, the terminus of Bidston trains. The stop block at Wrexham Central is now in the middle of a shopping centre making it impossible to even contemplate any re-instation.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Are we expcting anything else to be announced as part of this?

N.B.: Trafford Park is bigger

I believe the announcement may be capital funding only, so doubtful if anything rail beyond north to south journey times project however I,m told the a465 dualling is running badly over budget and its expected to delay or postpone other schemes. So if we do get Wrexham re double it will be a bonus, the on time on budget quick delivery of the Loughor viaduct /gowerton re double has not gone unnoticed NR may have scored some brownie points there.

 

[merlodlliw]

Are we expcting anything else to be announced as part of this?

N.B.: Trafford Park is bigger

Trafford Park is indeed bigger,however the North West Development Agency have included other areas of Trafford into it during the past 30 years.
However Wrexham industrial Estate is the largest in Wales,and 2nd to Trafford Park in both the UK & Europe.


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

My 1947 GWR Atlas shows a long siding into the estate from the Cambrian.
It started (facing Wrexham) at Marchwiel Factory SB at mp9.23 (from Ellesmere), and then did a large S loop to the ordnance factory.
You can still trace some of the route of the siding, but most of it has been obliterated by new works and road realignments.
It's easier to see on Google Maps than it is on the ground!

You are right about the size of the place. I have never been there without getting lost.
Despite having just gained a dual-carriageway link from the A483, the site is one of the most confusing estates in the country.
It has concentric roads with cross links, some of which are incomplete or terminate in the middle of nowhere.
The road pattern changes all the time as they build/demolish sites, so no map is ever up to date, and the resident firms keep changing their names.
There are North and South sections but often no obvious way of getting from one to the other.
It needs a central point of reference and a few "You are Here" signs.
Hopefully the prison will be unmissable!

I'll have to wipe my contact lenses before looking on google maps again! Thanks LNW GW Joint, any links to sites with pics of sidings?

Having visited industrial estates all over Wales the signage is no better or no worse than standard!

 

[TDK]

Single line will be from Wrexham North Junction to Rossett, the line speed is being enhances to 75 from Saltney to Green lane then 90 from Green Lane to Rossett, 75 from Rossett to Croess Newydd and then 90 thereafter however I cannot see it being 90 over the viaducts or in the ruabon area due to the track layout

I must apologise for my error that has been pointed out to me by a senior work colleague (what he doesn't know isn't worth knowing). The double track apparently will extend from Gresford (a new junction called Gresford Junction I believe) to Saltney Junction. However I still feel it is a gross waste of money as I cannot see where either ATW or VT are going to acquire the stock to run extra services. Unless the signalling is enhanced from Wrexham to Shrewsbury and done quickly (before the double line is complete) you will have extra trains maybe to sit at Croes Newydd section signal awaiting the previous train to clear Gobowen. In the other direction from Shrewsbury the services will have to wait at Crewe Junction, Gobowen and at Baschurch for the previous train to clear. I believe the doubling of the track is to aid visitors to visit the new prison being built on the Wrexham Industrial Estate if this is the case maybe the money should be put into the system to try to prevent crime instead of assisting people getting to a prison that as I have been told will house 2000 inmates. It will be interesting also to see if any trains can maintain 75 up Gresford bank, probably only a Voyager. It will also be interesting from a drivers point of view to see where any signals are going to be installed on the Gresford Bank as I would get twitchy in leaf fall trying to stop descending at 75mph.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I must apologise for my error that has been pointed out to me by a senior work colleague (what he doesn't know isn't worth knowing). The double track apparently will extend from Gresford (a new junction called Gresford Junction I believe) to Saltney Junction. However I still feel it is a gross waste of money as I cannot see where either ATW or VT are going to acquire the stock to run extra services. Unless the signalling is enhanced from Wrexham to Shrewsbury and done quickly (before the double line is complete) you will have extra trains maybe to sit at Croes Newydd section signal awaiting the previous train to clear Gobowen. In the other direction from Shrewsbury the services will have to wait at Crewe Junction, Gobowen and at Baschurch for the previous train to clear. I believe the doubling of the track is to aid visitors to visit the new prison being built on the Wrexham Industrial Estate if this is the case maybe the money should be put into the system to try to prevent crime instead of assisting people getting to a prison that as I have been told will house 2000 inmates. It will be interesting also to see if any trains can maintain 75 up Gresford bank, probably only a Voyager. It will also be interesting from a drivers point of view to see where any signals are going to be installed on the Gresford Bank as I would get twitchy in leaf fall trying to stop descending at 75mph.

The NR plans in the document on the Welsh Government site show:
1) double line from Saltney Jn to Rossett
2) double line from a new Gresford Jn (south of the A483 bridge) southwards.
So single just for 2.3 miles from Rossett up the bank past the A483 bridge.

I think there may be signalling changes Shrewsbury-Wrexham (along with the line speed increase) and certainly Wrexham-Saltney for the new junctions on the line.

Wouldn't a 175 doing 90 at Rossett be able to keep up 75 on the bank?

I shouldn't think the prison scheme had much to do with it, but the politicians love making linkages that don't exist.
How many extra trains will run because of the prison? None, I bet.

 

[merlodlliw]

The NR plans in the document on the Welsh Government site show:
1) double line from Saltney Jn to Rossett
2) double line from a new Gresford Jn (south of the A483 bridge) southwards.
So single just for 2.3 miles from Rossett up the bank past the A483 bridge.

I think there may be signalling changes Shrewsbury-Wrexham (along with the line speed increase) and certainly Wrexham-Saltney for the new junctions on the line.

Wouldn't a 175 doing 90 at Rossett be able to keep up 75 on the bank?

I shouldn't think the prison scheme had much to do with it, but the politicians love making linkages that don't exist.
How many extra trains will run because of the prison? None, I bet.

The prison scheme is just confirming the viability of another reason for the double tracking.

The money was originally put up due to NR(Railtrack) & ATW stating the line from Wrexham to Saltney was their biggest pinch point in North Wales, anyhow the official statement on July 8th is when Mrs Hart will confirm the dual tracking. The dual Track up Gresford Bank is a new one to me and ill bet to a few others.

 

[transmanche]

So single just for 2.3 miles from Rossett up the bank past the A483 bridge.

Is there a particular reason why that section will remain single? Narrow formation. Expensive bridge to replace? Or just general cost saving?

Just seems a bit odd to leave a short section of single track.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is there a particular reason why that section will remain single? Narrow formation. Expensive bridge to replace? Or just general cost saving?

Just seems a bit odd to leave a short section of single track.

Its the prohibitive cost of replacing the single track overbridge in this exercise,it would add £Millions to the final bill. When built it saved just £425K

Also in an earlier thread I mentioned dual tracking up Gresford Bank as being new to me,what I should have put was "Gresford Junction is new"


Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there a particular reason why that section will remain single? Narrow formation. Expensive bridge to replace? Or just general cost saving?
Just seems a bit odd to leave a short section of single track.

Replacing the single-track bridge over the A483 is the oft-quoted reason, which would involve roads funding as well.
If you need single track junctions for this reason they would have to be located on easy stretches, hence Rossett at the bottom and somewhere near the old Wheatsheaf Jn at the top.
Another reason may be that the existing single line mostly follows the old up or down tracks, whereas the bit up Gresford bank was probably slewed to find the optimum alignment and would therefore cost more to convert back to double track (and may need expensive embankment works).
On the other hand two fast (75mph) single line junctions in the middle of nowhere must cost more in track and signalling terms than plain double track.

 

[merlodlliw]

I agree about Gresford Bank LNW-GW Joint; it was here they shifted the track when the road was built, Im sure it was slewed as well, TDK will know.

Bob

 

[krus_aragon]

On the other hand two fast (75mph) single line junctions in the middle of nowhere must cost more in track and signalling terms than plain double track.

Dare I suggest gauntlet track? :P (For the pointwork, at least.)

 

[PHILIPE]

Replacing the single-track bridge over the A483 is the oft-quoted reason, which would involve roads funding as well.
If you need single track junctions for this reason they would have to be located on easy stretches, hence Rossett at the bottom and somewhere near the old Wheatsheaf Jn at the top.
Another reason may be that the existing single line mostly follows the old up or down tracks, whereas the bit up Gresford bank was probably slewed to find the optimum alignment and would therefore cost more to convert back to double track (and may need expensive embankment works).
On the other hand two fast (75mph) single line junctions in the middle of nowhere must cost more in track and signalling terms than plain double track.

There used to be subsidence problems on the Bank at one time so, I guess, leave as it is.

 

[transmanche]

Dare I suggest gauntlet track? :P (For the pointwork, at least.)

Is that used on heavy rail anywhere in the UK? (I've seen it used on the tram system in Amsterdam and Tramlink in London.) But if it can save on expensive pointwork...

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Is that used on heavy rail anywhere in the UK? (I've seen it used on the tram system in Amsterdam and Tramlink in London.) But if it can save on expensive pointwork...

The only place that I can think of is the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway.