Welsh Government at odds with Labour policy on Guards?

[Gareth Marston]

Had this through from my local RUG

Dear All:

I have it on good and reliable authority that the Welsh Assembly Government has taken the decision that Guards on trains are no longer safety critical. So here we go down the road of Southern, etc.

There are to be demonstrations at Aberystwyth, Shrewsbury and Chester stations on Monday September 4. I am sure also at other stations but these are the only ones I know about.

I am contacting R

 

[Monty]

Had this through from my local RUG

I'm not sure if the WAG can simply just state that guards are no longer safety critical members of staff. Not unless they have just received suitcases of cash which they plan to buy new DOO capable trains and buy off the drivers....

Most of their stock is 2nd Generation DMUs are totally unsuited to DOO.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure if the WAG can simply just state that guards are no longer safety critical members of staff. Not unless they have just received suitcases of cash which they plan to buy new DOO capable trains and buy off the drivers....

Most of their stock is 2nd Generation DMUs are totally unsuited to DOO.

319s/769s were built to be DOO and require modifications to be worked by guards. I also imagine if they go down the route of light rail vehicles for Valley Lines then they'll argue it's pretty much unheard of for light rail vehicles to have guards.

Corbyn may be telling the RMT Labour is in favour of guards but Labour controlled Merseytravel are going down the route of getting rid of guards and Labour controlled councils signed off the Northern franchise spec which mentioned DCO. It seems Labour aren't against DOO if it's a choice of investment plus no guards or no investment plus guards.

 

[Llanigraham]

Had this through from my local RUG

Perhaps the RUG should state the source of this?
Or is it just political posturing?

 

[Monty]

319s/769s were built to be DOO and require modifications to be worked by guards. I also imagine if they go down the route of light rail vehicles for Valley Lines then they'll argue it's pretty much unheard of for light rail vehicles to have guards.

As it stands they are only getting a small number of units so I doubt they are going to risk a lengthy dispute over them. The drivers would also still need to agree to it too, I take this rumour with a massive mountain of salt.

 

[TEW]

319s/769s were built to be DOO and require modifications to be worked by guards.

That's not true, 319s were originally worked both DOO and with guards. There have always been door controls by the cab doors, as well as on the driving desk, for the use of a guard. I don't know whether they worked or not in the later years on Thameslink, but they work fine on London Midland 319s now.

 

[northwichcat]

That's not true, 319s were originally worked both DOO and with guards. There have always been door controls by the cab doors, as well as on the driving desk, for the use of a guard. I don't know whether they worked or not in the later years on Thameslink, but they work fine on London Midland 319s now.

The Northern ones had to be modified prior to entering service with Northern, maybe the LM ones were modified too? Given Northern apparently got to choose which 12 x 319s they got initially I'd find it surprising if they choose ones not suitable for guard operation without modifications if others were available which were suitable for guard operation.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Perhaps the RUG should state the source of this?
Or is it just political posturing?

Knowing who it comes from and who he speaks to I have a fair idea its come from a "local Government source"

 

[TEW]

The Northern ones had to be modified prior to entering service with Northern, maybe the LM ones were modified too? Given Northern apparently got to choose which 12 x 319s they got initially I'd find it surprising if they choose ones not suitable for guard operation without modifications if others were available which were suitable for guard operation.

They may well have needed modifications, but it would have been undoing a previous modification rather than a brand new. As first introduced 319s were suitable for operation DOO and with a guard, any modification carried out that meant they were only suitable for operation DOO must have been done at a later date. Prior to use with Northern I imagine that last time 319s ran with a guard would have been when they were still used by Southern, they were known to work services to Guildford in the past, one of the few Southern Metro routes with a guard.

 

[headshot119]

Is DOO permitted in areas with none continuous train detection? (Absolute Block, NSTR, NSKT, One train working with staff).

 

[Jonfun]

Interesting but unlikely. I could turn round and say the sky's green but it wouldn't make it true. As far as I can see, Guards in Wales still conduct safety critical duties, the legal definition of safety critical duties hasn't changed... so the Guards are still safety critical?

 

[Sprinter153]

The Northern ones had to be modified prior to entering service with Northern, maybe the LM ones were modified too? Given Northern apparently got to choose which 12 x 319s they got initially I'd find it surprising if they choose ones not suitable for guard operation without modifications if others were available which were suitable for guard operation.

319s have definitely always had Guard dispatch facilities. The Northern ones were modified for the purpose of permanently removing the cab Door Key Switch and fitting a DKS at each door position to make revenue duties and staff visibility easier.

They were used with Southern on Guard worked services, e.g. London Bridge - Horsham.

 

[krus_aragon]

I could turn round and say the sky's green but it wouldn't make it true.

Actually, you might in Wales. The word 'glas', in Old and Middle Welsh (and all Celtic languages), would be used to cover all shades of green, blue, and gray. Modern Welsh usage reserves glas for blue, and gwyrdd (from the Latin viridis) for green, but some crossovers still remain. (e.g. in settings where English uses 'green' for young or fresh, Welsh uses 'glas'.)

In Gaelic languages, 'glas' has ended up being used for green instead.

Erp, can tell I've just come from the Welsh Linguistic Questions thread? :P

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The ORR/RSSB still rules in Wales so their safety advice still applies.
WG are compiling the ITT for the future Wales & Borders franchise.
It would be remiss if they did not provide scope for some DOO on the network, as has happened at Northern and elsewhere.
I could also imagine any tram or tram-train solution for the Valleys would be DOO (like Metrolink and other light rail systems).
It's got nothing whatever to do with ATW as the current franchisee, so protests against the TOC are pointless.
Like Merseyrail, WG are facing up to the cost of running their own rail network, which they haven't had to bother with to date.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even where trams have conductors (which could be a viable option) they do not operate the doors.

 

[mrcheek]

Corbyn may be telling the RMT Labour is in favour of guards but Labour controlled Merseytravel are going down the route of getting rid of guards and Labour controlled councils signed off the Northern franchise spec which mentioned DCO. It seems Labour aren't against DOO if it's a choice of investment plus no guards or no investment plus guards.

Labour are happy to get rid of guards once they actually have to run trains, and realise the sense it makes. Corbyn couldnt even run a bath, so he is free to pledge whatever nonsense he likes, knowing he will never have to implement any policy

 

[gareth950]

This is the problem with the Welsh Govt conducting the award of this franchise entirely in secret, and not being prepared to publicly release even the ITT when it's finally put out to bidders.
Rumours will be rife until the actual contract award is announced early next year. Until then, absolutely nothing can be said for certain.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Is DOO permitted in areas with none continuous train detection? (Absolute Block, NSTR, NSKT, One train working with staff).

Niet.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This is the problem with the Welsh Govt conducting the award of this franchise entirely in secret, and not being prepared to publicly release even the ITT when it's finally put out to bidders.
Rumours will be rife until the actual contract award is announced early next year. Until then, absolutely nothing can be said for certain.

They tried to float "the role of the second person on board" (note not safety critical conductor) in their sham consultation and by all accounts everyone that responded or attended events supported the retention of second member of staff.

 

[SamYeager]

This is the problem with the Welsh Govt conducting the award of this franchise entirely in secret, and not being prepared to publicly release even the ITT when it's finally put out to bidders.

I can just imagine how scathing the Welsh Govt would have been if the DfT had operated in a similar manner with respect to franchises in Wales. :roll: I presume the "commercial in confidence" excuse is being used to justify all this secrecy?

 

[gareth950]

I can just imagine how scathing the Welsh Govt would have been if the DfT had operated in a similar manner with respect to franchises in Wales. :roll: I presume the "commercial in confidence" excuse is being used to justify all this secrecy?

They are hiding behind the "competitive dialogue process" that they have been engaged in with bidders to draw up the ITT, and the fact that it is not a 'straightforward' DfT style franchise award, as TfW is also awarding a contract to an 'Operator and Development Partner' to build and run the South Wales Metro, specifically taking over the running and development of the infrastructure of the 'Core Valley Lines'.

When giving evidence to the Welsh Assembly committee into the franchise award process earlier this year, a senior member of staff at Transport for Wales defended not publicly releasing the ITT by saying that "it will be written in arcane contractual language that the public will fail to understand".

In other words, they don't want any scrutiny of their plans, including what their plans are for electric conversion of the valley lines, until the contract is awarded and signed and it's too late for stakeholders to voice any objections.

Transparency in government at it's best.