Wellglade Group

[callum3490]

Littles have expanded and gained the 29/510/511 following the demise of CT4N from Monday.

Solo SR 496 has left Sutton Junction and is heading towards Littles

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2026 ==


There are no plans to refurbish the E200s on the nines.

How crazy when trent seem to struggle for spares as it is

 

[StavBered]

How crazy when trent seem to struggle for spares as it is

I don't think that Sutton is exactly struggling for spares... especially when there appears to be PVR increase and a whole "new" service coming for the threes

 

[Gareth1980]

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[callum3490]

I don't think that Sutton is exactly struggling for spares... especially when there appears to be PVR increase and a whole "new" service coming for the threes

Perhaps not sutton specifically but derby is and the surplus could certainly be moved over to help out

The pvr increase is only going to deplete spares as they end up permanently on said routes

 

[Trainman40083]

Perhaps not sutton specifically but derby is and the surplus could certainly be moved over to help out

The pvr increase is only going to deplete spares as they end up permanently on said routes

I'd have said from a financial side. Well you have your PVR. You have a specified number of spares. You crash a few, have lots of unplanned failures and well, you just blame traffic for missing buses .. If you have too many spares, you could turn a profitable operation into a loss making one. Of course, once you have convinced users to use apps to see where their bus is, meaning they don't see where it isn't. Personally I think apps like Hugo are one in a million.

 

[ExTrentBarton]

The recent spate of RTC’s at Derby really can’t have helped with vehicle availability.

Coupled with some general reliability issues, I don’t think it’s unfair to say that more spare buses are required at Derby to help maintain service levels.

With no new vehicles incoming this year I can’t see the situation improving for them, or the wider fleet, in the near term.

Having said that, even the new vehicles are suffering. If you look at the RA allocations today, to have 910 and 329 out means they are 3 coaches down (as the branded spare coach would be used before either of these). That’s 30% of a 12 month old fleet unavailable. I’m led to believe 902 has accident damage, but they surely can’t be happy with that level of availability on their newest fleet.

 

[Trainman40083]

The recent spate of RTC’s at Derby really can’t have helped with vehicle availability.

Coupled with some general reliability issues, I don’t think it’s unfair to say that more spare buses are required at Derby to help maintain service levels.

With no new vehicles incoming this year I can’t see the situation improving for them, or the wider fleet, in the near term.

Having said that, even the new vehicles are suffering. If you look at the RA allocations today, to have 910 and 329 out means they are 3 coaches down (as the branded spare coach would be used before either of these). That’s 30% of a 12 month old fleet unavailable. I’m led to believe 902 has accident damage, but they surely can’t be happy with that level of availability on their newest fleet.

Which Red Arrow did Enviro 200MMC 277, try to mate with at Meadow Road? I did notice one RA coach parked by the fence on the car park, OOU. Maybe 2027 will see new buses again ..more reliable ones.

 

[ExTrentBarton]

Which Red Arrow did Enviro 200MMC 277, try to mate with at Meadow Road? I did notice one RA coach parked by the fence on the car park, OOU. Maybe 2027 will see new buses again ..more reliable ones.

I’m not familiar with that particular incident, but 902 is definitely parked up with rear end damage, so that would be my guess.

From various bits I’ve heard, I think Trentbarton find themselves in a really tricky situation.

Covid hit them really hard financially which threw the fleet replacement program off by years. As such they now have an aging fleet (much older than they would like) that’s being worked far too hard. On top of that the threat/uncertainty of franchising remains, which must be impacting asset investment decisions within the business.

There is an irony that this new found government focus on buses is likely one of the reasons that the once “really good bus company” (which it was) now feels like a really struggling bus company.

 

[Trainman40083]

I’m not familiar with that particular incident, but 902 is definitely parked up with rear end damage, so that would be my guess.

From various bits I’ve heard, I think Trentbarton find themselves in a really tricky situation.

Covid hit them really hard financially which threw the fleet replacement program off by years. As such they now have an aging fleet (much older than they would like) that’s being worked far too hard. On top of that the threat/uncertainty of franchising remains, which must be impacting asset investment decisions within the business.

There is an irony that this new found government focus on buses is likely one of the reasons that the once “really good bus company” (which it was) now feels like a really struggling bus company.

Interesting thoughts.. Similar on the railways. On the one hand, there may be close to pre COVID passenger numbers travelling, but the revenue from them will be much less. Certainly less five days a week commuting. More leisure travel, which stretch resources in different places. But concentrating on buses, I'd suggest similar. I've not used a Trentbarton bus in over a year. The alternatives are, for me, far more attractive. Yes, I have a car, but for the most part, it is only used for journeys where the bus was never feasible. So, we have bus operators with ENCTS passengers, those on the bus cap, and the free child care services now. Yet, I still don't see full buses... But the revenue raised (even if given directly by Councils or Government) will most probably be low. That impacts profitability....New buses, spare buses, cut services (unless the EMCCA funds them). Quite a maelstrom of events, and you can see why some operators are calling it a day

 

[callum3490]

I'd have said from a financial side. Well you have your PVR. You have a specified number of spares. You crash a few, have lots of unplanned failures and well, you just blame traffic for missing buses .. If you have too many spares, you could turn a profitable operation into a loss making one. Of course, once you have convinced users to use apps to see where their bus is, meaning they don't see where it isn't. Personally I think apps like Hugo are one in a million.

Exactly, spares you would think are intended to fill in for scheduled maintenance and unexpected repairs. When you start relying on them for pvr increases and the like decreases their availability.

There just seems to be lots of odd decisions being made when theres general vehicle shortages across the fleet, 712 and 716 going into trainers and seemingly others when there will soon be the comet and swift b7s as surplus. 496 going over to littles is again odd when the harlequin solos will soon be displaced by versas and they could be shifted over to littles. It all just feels like quick decisions are being made to plug a gap without looking at the bigger picture or the future options, perhaps behind the scenes there are valid reasons for these decisions, but from a public pov why are these decisions being made when services are being left running short. Littles i’m sure could acquire something from the second hand market whereas trent wouldn’t

 

[ExTrentBarton]

Interesting thoughts.. Similar on the railways. On the one hand, there may be close to pre COVID passenger numbers travelling, but the revenue from them will be much less. Certainly less five days a week commuting. More leisure travel, which stretch resources in different places. But concentrating on buses, I'd suggest similar. I've not used a Trentbarton bus in over a year. The alternatives are, for me, far more attractive. Yes, I have a car, but for the most part, it is only used for journeys where the bus was never feasible. So, we have bus operators with ENCTS passengers, those on the bus cap, and the free child care services now. Yet, I still don't see full buses... But the revenue raised (even if given directly by Councils or Government) will most probably be low. That impacts profitability....New buses, spare buses, cut services (unless the EMCCA funds them). Quite a maelstrom of events, and you can see why some operators are calling it a day

Indeed it is.

You can see why groups like Wellglade are effectively hedging their bets by getting into things like FlixBus, contract work/tenders through N&D and acquisitions like Littles, whilst keeping a foot in the door for South Yorkshire franchising through TM. Unfortunately it feels like they’re only half committing to any of it until the uncertainty is removed one way or another.

Trentbarton proved over many decades they could deliver quality services (way above what anyone else was doing at the time) on a largely commercial basis. It’s such a shame to see that drifting away, can you imagine where they would be now if the investment/innovation from the late 90’s and early 00’s had continued?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==

Exactly, spares you would think are intended to fill in for scheduled maintenance and unexpected repairs. When you start relying on them for pvr increases and the like decreases their availability.

There just seems to be lots of odd decisions being made when theres general vehicle shortages across the fleet, 712 and 716 going into trainers and seemingly others when there will soon be the comet and swift b7s as surplus. 496 going over to littles is again odd when the harlequin solos will soon be displaced by versas and they could be shifted over to littles. It all just feels like quick decisions are being made to plug a gap without looking at the bigger picture or the future options, perhaps behind the scenes there are valid reasons for these decisions, but from a public pov why are these decisions being made when services are being left running short. Littles i’m sure could acquire something from the second hand market whereas trent wouldn’t

Do you think this is a consequence of my point above?

There seems to be a make do and mend approach at the minute which really isn’t what TrentBarton historically did. Short term decisions being made due to long term uncertainty.

Senior management are very aware that they nearly killed their flagship commercial service (the RA) by holding off on fleet replacement for a couple of years too long. The rumour is that they only got the Yutongs because they piggybacked them onto the FlixBus deal.

The Sixes is another brand they’ve nearly destroyed and it should have got new buses, not hand me downs that are already nearing end of life.

I suspect it’s as frustrating for the business as it is for the public. If you needed to invest £10/20m+ into the fleet/property/technology, which they do, but the Mayor is making comments that franchising is “still on the table”, would you commit knowing the government could effectively take your business away at any time the Mayor needs to score some political points?

 

[MCR247]

Penfold (@elbow112) on X

Holy **** ! Be careful guys people like this are out there

x.com

Saw a tweet about the standard of drivers on the road these days - featuring a near miss with a Red Arrow Yutong

 

[Trainman40083]

Penfold (@elbow112) on X

Holy **** ! Be careful guys people like this are out there

x.com

Saw a tweet about the standard of drivers on the road these days - featuring a near miss with a Red Arrow Yutong

Fancy that car driver missing re give way lines and the BIG red coach. When the motorcycle rider spoke to her, you get the impression, she never even noticed.

 

[SSmith2009]

There is an irony that this new found government focus on buses is likely one of the reasons that the once “really good bus company” (which it was) now feels like a really struggling bus company.

IMO Since the departure of Alex Hornby they've been on a slippery slope and lost their sparkle.

 

[liamf656]

IMO Since the departure of Alex Hornby they've been on a slippery slope and lost their sparkle.

The slippery slope started when he was appointed imo. A lot of talk both in and out of these forums suggest that money was being hemmoraged hence his departure from Trentbarton (and subsequently his from Transdev and McGills)

Trentbarton proved over many decades they could deliver quality services (way above what anyone else was doing at the time) on a largely commercial basis. It’s such a shame to see that drifting away, can you imagine where they would be now if the investment/innovation from the late 90’s and early 00’s had continued?

I think we are forgetting that there isn't an infinite money pit, especially post COVID, and businesses need to be savvy with how they invest and use their money nowadays. The bus industry was in trouble just a few years ago, and are only just pulling out of that with various subsidaries and government schemes. Look at the likes of Amberline, Spondon Flyer, 27 and 141 to name a few. They were never going to survive as expensive brands and work much better either in curtailed form or within lower budget operators

Senior management are very aware that they nearly killed their flagship commercial service (the RA) by holding off on fleet replacement for a couple of years too long.

Have you got anything to back up this claim? As it's quite a bold statement

 

[Trainman40083]

The slippery slope started when he was appointed imo. A lot of talk both in and out of these forums suggest that money was being hemmoraged hence his departure from Trentbarton (and subsequently his from Transdev and McGills)


I think we are forgetting that there isn't an infinite money pit, especially post COVID, and businesses need to be savvy with how they invest and use their money nowadays. The bus industry was in trouble just a few years ago, and are only just pulling out of that with various subsidaries and government schemes. Look at the likes of Amberline, Spondon Flyer, 27 and 141 to name a few. They were never going to survive as expensive brands and work much better either in curtailed form or within lower budget operators


Have you got anything to back up this claim? As it's quite a bold statement

There isn't an infinite money pit, that is the truth. You do have to be savvy. I've heard people tell me how bus companies are making lots of money, as they have seen one bus full of people. So it might be, but it isn't the case ALL DAY. Operators have been hit on multiple fronts and one wonders how they would do if there was no Government support and real fares were charged. But people believe what they believe, even when they are told different. .Where I am, people believe the bus companies get the full value in respect of ENCTS, the fare cap and the free child fares. If they did, we would see a lot more investment. I wonder if we had a crystal ball, what the bus industry would look like in 5 years?

 

[Ballyheigue]

Penfold (@elbow112) on X

Holy **** ! Be careful guys people like this are out there

x.com

Saw a tweet about the standard of drivers on the road these days - featuring a near miss with a Red Arrow Yutong

Sorry but her and her passenger both need their licences removing

 

[ExTrentBarton]

Have you got anything to back up this claim? As it's quite a bold statement

What I can say is that it came straight from the mouth of a director in front of a room full of staff.

What I can’t say (without compromising myself and people who share information with me) is how I know this.

It is however not a particularly contentious statement, it was obvious to even a casual observer that the RA brand was being damaged by fleet availability and the inaction to address this.

Aside from the statement, which you can chose to accept or not, my point was more that if the flagship, fully commercial and profitable RA route is being run this close to the edge, you can imagine how tight the commercial situation must be on some of the lesser routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==

IMO Since the departure of Alex Hornby they've been on a slippery slope and lost their sparkle.

The job of the MD is to balance spending and results (and like it or not, in the current setup for deregulated buses that means profitable and commercially sustainable).

It’s very easy to splash the cash and look like a hero in a growing market. It’s equally easy to keep cutting back costs and still look like a failure in a contracting market. The best MD’s will spend the available cash in the right places.

One might argue (and to a degree I have above) that the current MD has been dealt a very difficult hand compared to his predecessor’s, but ultimately the question will be whether they have cut back too far on the operational side whilst trying to fill the gaps by having too much of a focus on marketing rather than substance?

The number one passenger expectation is reliability, if you can’t deliver that because you don’t have the buses on the road, then the rest of it really is just marketing smoke and mirrors.

To further highlight my point on cost cutting, take the passenger perception of the ADL fleet, they’ve replaced a substantial number of heavyweight air conditioned buses from the late 00’s into the 10’s with these lightweight, pretty unreliable, glass roof greenhouses, while still trying to market them as a high specification service.

If summers continue how the last two have, that’s going to look like a really bad fleet decision, which they will be stuck with for many, many years to come.

I don’t think many at the company (outside the leadership team) still believe the marketing that TB is a “really good bus company”, but that’s probably as much a consequence of government policy stifling private investment than it is a failure in leadership.

As I suggested in my earlier posts, they need investment and for that to happen they need clarity on policy direction.

 

[Trainman40083]

What I can say is that it came straight from the mouth of a director in front of a room full of staff.

What I can’t say (without compromising myself and people who share information with me) is how I know this.

It is however not a particularly contentious statement, it was obvious to even a casual observer that the RA brand was being damaged by fleet availability and the inaction to address this.

Aside from the statement, which you can chose to accept or not, my point was more that if the flagship, fully commercial and profitable RA route is being run this close to the edge, you can imagine how tight the commercial situation must be on some of the lesser routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==


The job of the MD is to balance spending and results (and like it or not, in the current setup for deregulated buses that means profitable and commercially sustainable).

It’s very easy to splash the cash and look like a hero in a growing market. It’s equally easy to keep cutting back costs and still look like a failure in a contracting market. The best MD’s will spend the available cash in the right places.

One might argue (and to a degree I have above) that the current MD has been dealt a very difficult hand compared to his predecessor’s, but ultimately the question will be whether they have cut back too far on the operational side whilst trying to fill the gaps by having too much of a focus on marketing rather than substance?

The number one passenger expectation is reliability, if you can’t deliver that because you don’t have the buses on the road, then the rest of it really is just marketing smoke and mirrors.

To further highlight my point on cost cutting, take the passenger perception of the ADL fleet, they’ve replaced a substantial number of heavyweight air conditioned buses from the late 00’s into the 10’s with these lightweight, pretty unreliable, glass roof greenhouses, while still trying to market them as a high specification service.

If summers continue how the last two have, that’s going to look like a really bad fleet decision, which they will be stuck with for many, many years to come.

I don’t think many at the company (outside the leadership team) still believe the marketing that TB is a “really good bus company”, but that’s probably as much a consequence of government policy stifling private investment than it is a failure in leadership.

As I suggested in my earlier posts, they need investment and for that to happen they need clarity on policy direction.

I'd say, whatever single deckers they have next...and I seriously doubt they will be ADL, then the priority has to be ..no sun roof and better ventilation. Where I live, it is a key reason why they don't use the bus. "I'm not travelling in a mobile greenhouse".

 

[StavBered]

I'd say, whatever single deckers they have next...and I seriously doubt they will be ADL, then the priority has to be ..no sun roof and better ventilation. Where I live, it is a key reason why they don't use the bus. "I'm not travelling in a mobile greenhouse".

Don't the 200MMCs come with a "forced air" system though? Surely that has some effect unless they're completely useless like the system found in NCTs E400 City's

 

[JJM22]

Don't the 200MMCs come with a "forced air" system though? Surely that has some effect unless they're completely useless like the system found in NCTs E400 City's

I think you’ve answered your own question there

 

[Trainman40083]

I think you’ve answered your own question there

I've heard of a few drivers, who have had to go off shift early. The temperature in the cab was 40 degrees . Does that affect their concentration? Their driving? Their mood? Does it make them consider other jobs? Now some might think it is not an issue, but it sure affects how often people catch the bus; indeed what bus they catch. Choice between a bus with a sun roof and one without.. The latter wins every time. Many have an air-conditioned car, others may walk etc. All those potential passengers lost. I am sure that affects profitability. Do the directors realise? Sat in their air conditioned car, I doubt it. They just blame traffic for late buses.

 

[trentbartonfan]

I've heard of a few drivers, who have had to go off shift early. The temperature in the cab was 40 degrees . Does that affect their concentration? Their driving? Their mood? Does it make them consider other jobs? Now some might think it is not an issue, but it sure affects how often people catch the bus; indeed what bus they catch. Choice between a bus with a sun roof and one without.. The latter wins every time. Many have an air-conditioned car, others may walk etc. All those potential passengers lost. I am sure that affects profitability. Do the directors realise? Sat in their air conditioned car, I doubt it. They just blame traffic for late buses.

The people who have said it isnt an issue, have obviously never been on a MMC with a sun roof in the height of summer. I never get on a bus when its hot unless i have to, and many people will think the same, so that will hit their revenue

 

[JJM22]

I've heard of a few drivers, who have had to go off shift early. The temperature in the cab was 40 degrees . Does that affect their concentration? Their driving? Their mood? Does it make them consider other jobs? Now some might think it is not an issue, but it sure affects how often people catch the bus; indeed what bus they catch. Choice between a bus with a sun roof and one without.. The latter wins every time. Many have an air-conditioned car, others may walk etc. All those potential passengers lost. I am sure that affects profitability. Do the directors realise? Sat in their air conditioned car, I doubt it. They just blame traffic for late buses.

In my experience, both E200mmc and E400mmc are absolutely awful to drive in the heat, I hated it, as did my colleagues.
And similar to you, I pretty much never use the bus personally, I’d rather drive in air conditioning and pay extra for parking. Also, I’ve always disliked trentbarton’s excuse for not having it, because it’s just a lie, which puts me off even more.

 

[StavBered]

I've heard of a few drivers, who have had to go off shift early. The temperature in the cab was 40 degrees . Does that affect their concentration? Their driving? Their mood? Does it make them consider other jobs? Now some might think it is not an issue, but it sure affects how often people catch the bus; indeed what bus they catch. Choice between a bus with a sun roof and one without.. The latter wins every time. Many have an air-conditioned car, others may walk etc. All those potential passengers lost. I am sure that affects profitability. Do the directors realise? Sat in their air conditioned car, I doubt it. They just blame traffic for late buses.

It's not just trentbarton (if that's the operator youre even referring to) too. It seems to be an ADL/lack of AC issue overall. I've had NCT services cancelled on me before due to a drivers not being able to handle the heat in the double deckers, usually confirmed by driver interaction. Also, any time I have travelled to QMC in the heat, I would always wait for a Red Arrow instead of an indigo/i4

 

[YX73OUB]

It's not just trentbarton (if that's the operator youre even referring to) too. It seems to be an ADL/lack of AC issue overall. I've had NCT services cancelled on me before due to a drivers not being able to handle the heat in the double deckers, usually confirmed by driver interaction. And any time I have travelled to QMC in the heat, I would always wait for a Red Arrow instead of an indigo/i4

Also not forgetting that NCT buses do have air conditioning in the cab - whether or not it works is a different matter as I've heard differing tales.

I can wholeheartedly testify that driving them in the heat of late has been the most testing and difficult experiences of my near 16 year bus driving career.

 

[Trainman40083]

The people who have said it isnt an issue, have obviously never been on a MMC with a sun roof in the height of summer. I never get on a bus when its hot unless i have to, and many people will think the same, so that will hit their revenue

Exactly. Now the Kinchbus Yutongs are lovely. I didn't want to get off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 10:44 ==

It's not just trentbarton (if that's the operator youre even referring to) too. It seems to be an ADL/lack of AC issue overall. I've had NCT services cancelled on me before due to a drivers not being able to handle the heat in the double deckers, usually confirmed by driver interaction. Also, any time I have travelled to QMC in the heat, I would always wait for a Red Arrow instead of an indigo/i4

The only Enviro 400MMCs I seem to ride on, are the one on the U1 Unibus service. They appear to have a fan in the driver's cab.. I did hear that some of the Trentbarton Enviro 200MMCs were to have them. Now, my bus route does have Enviro 200MMCs with a sun roof. I've not caught one in over a year; yet I often catch the bus into Derby. One without a sun roof, which is just about bearable..Lost opportunity. But that sun roof means I don't use any other bus on other routes either. Their loss. A lady across the road from me, worked in Derby City Centre, not that far from the bus stop. She had a taxi on a hot day. Okay, as a passenger, I have a choice. My, I feel sorry for the drivers that don't have a choice. Trouble is though, once a loyal passenger was walked away, they rarely come back, unless there is a significant step change. These days, I think nothing of walking 3 miles, instead of catching a bus

 

[JJM22]

The only Enviro 400MMCs I seem to ride on, are the one on the U1 Unibus service. They appear to have a fan in the driver's cab.. I did hear that some of the Trentbarton Enviro 200MMCs were to have them.

The fans are less than useless, they have a higher setting that is extremely loud in the cab. Which if used just makes sitting in the heat far worse in my opinion.

 

[tramboy]

...Now, my bus route does have Enviro 200MMCs with a sun roof. I've not caught one in over a year; yet I often catch the bus into Derby. One without a sun roof, which is just about bearable..Lost opportunity. But that sun roof means I don't use any other bus on other routes either...

Does anyone have an opinion if the later batch of E200MMCs, which trent fitted with the darker "super tint" glazing have helped to keep the interior temperature down slightly or not at all?

 

[liamf656]

Does anyone have an opinion if the later batch of E200MMCs, which trent fitted with the darker "super tint" glazing have helped to keep the interior temperature down slightly or not at all?

They are definitely much better than the earlier examples