WebberBus route 26 launch delayed.

[CD]

The competition between First and Webberbus has provided the people of Somerset with a much enhanced service right across the County.Now with Firsts changes next month even more so. If/when one or the other gives up the fight just watch the cuts in frequency.

 

[Robertj21a]

Now local First operations have been given much more freedom we are starting to see this improvement and competition.

.
Yes, just such a shame that Blockhead couldn't allow some good managers to actually manage.

Robert

 

[robertclark125]

If this new found aggression by local First managers spreads, then things could become very interesting in some other places.

Staying on the subject of Webberbus, they claimed they only found out about the loss of the Taunton P&R contract through the media. How believable is that?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The competition between First and Webberbus has provided the people of Somerset with a much enhanced service right across the County.Now with Firsts changes next month even more so. If/when one or the other gives up the fight just watch the cuts in frequency.

Not really. You've got unsustainable service levels. Take Street to Wells - was 2 buses per hour. Now it's 2 bph (37/8) from WB whilst First will now have 5 bph (29/376/377/X75) plus the odd 375. Can that corridor support a bus every 8 mins? Of course not, so frequencies will have to reduce.

And as for the people of Somerser benefiting? Some have but remember that the 21/22/28 subsequently lost their evening services whilst 377 lost its Sunday journeys. It hasn't all been good.

I might add that in pre-First days, many core frequencies were the same or worse. Yeovil to Taunton was 2 hourly as was Yeovil to Wells and Wells to Bridgwater. Even Bristol to Wells was only hourly with just 4 Sunday journeys.

 

[CatfordCat]

It depends - an increased frequency can (depending on the market) generate additional use of buses.

The claimed 'attraction' of mini-bus services in the deregulation era was probably more a result of the frequency increase that usually went with it rather than any intrinsic appeal of minibuses.

It is generally accepted that a frequency better than every X minutes will mean people don't think about whether a bus might be due, they just go to the bus stop and know there will be one soon (X varies between 10 and 15 depending who you ask) - obviously that sort of frequency isn't going to be possible outside larger towns.

The Tillings Group (of which Western National was part) tended towards relatively infrequent interurban services, often at infrequent intervals, with odd deviations off the main route on different journeys / days of the week, and put duplicate / relief buses on the busiest journeys.

While those odd frequencies and deviations served genuine purposes (albeit in some cases many years after that purpose still existed) they did make it difficult to sell the service, and required a degree of thought before going to catch the bus. If someone genuinely has a choice how or whether to travel, then a lot of thought about what day of the week it is, whether it's a school day and if so in which town, and so on, tends to discourage bus use...

There are a number of interurban routes in Lincolnshire, for example, where the rural bus grant era led to a major re-vamp of trunk interurban routes that had run a few times a day, most of which now run (at least weekday daytimes) hourly. While much of the rural bus grant (etc) money has dried up, most of those trunk routes are still going on a commercial basis.

Obviously the potential of each route will be different (hence a need for local decision making rather than a lot of diktats from on high, which is somewhere that First weren't always great) and there are one or two such routes in Lincolnshire that didn't do so well...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In regulated days, it's true that there were often many convoluted services but also rampant cross subsidising, hence why buses were "saved" from major routes with resources deployed elsewhere, thereby establishing lower frequencies that really shouldn't have applied. Stagecoach in particular have succeeded in developing routes at higher frequencies but whilst 2 bph is perhaps low for Wells to Street, 7 is perhaps a little steep!

With minibus services, the attraction was to have higher frequencies as a defensive or offensive strategies as well as better penetration of housing estates. However, the increased headcount meant that higher costs were encountered and revenue didn't always keep up, hence larger vehicles and wider headways returned. In some places like Weston super Mare that was a high profile conversion, First's smallest vehicles are now Marshall Darts.

During my degree, I was taught that 15 min frequency was the accepted level for customers not to need a timetable!

 

[South Westerly]

the other end I doubt will change just the bit between Bridgwater and Taunton

it doesn't really the other issue will result in a 54 /377 clash at some point

21 is going to every 15 mins Mon to Sat all day between Musgrove Park Hospital and Bridgwater.
26 is the same as Webberbus 27
28 is also changing with the timings being rearranged throughout
X28 reintroduced on Mondays and Fridays using 2 PVR which are coaches
29 is going hourly
54 is extended to Musgrove Oark Hospital and is going every 30 mins to Somerton and Langport. This part of the route is getting a Sunday service too!

 

[robertclark125]

I'm guessing that, given their issues delaying the launch of route 26, Webberbus could be facing a situation where they may struggle to fight back.

 

[swifty]

I've seen elsewhere that it's actually Crossville that has taken the majority or drivers from Webbers, taking 10 and First have poached 8.

The X28 is also rumoured to be gaining 2x Scania Coaches, I wonder if the ex Greenline pair will be utilised in their BoS esque livery?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

21 is going to every 15 mins Mon to Sat all day between Musgrove Park Hospital and Bridgwater.
26 is the same as Webberbus 27
28 is also changing with the timings being rearranged throughout
X28 reintroduced on Mondays and Fridays using 2 PVR which are coaches
29 is going hourly
54 is extended to Musgrove Oark Hospital and is going every 30 mins to Somerton and Langport. This part of the route is getting a Sunday service too!

When Matt mentioned the 377, I did wonder if they might just run to Somerton using two extra vehicles? 49 mins journey time plus some from Musgrave Park? Innovative to introduce a Sunday service - it used to have one til SCC pulled the subsidy?

x28 is the express from Taunton Stn to Butlins? Take it Mon and Fri are moving days? Could always borrow those two Irizars gently depreciating outside Muller Road!!

 

[South Westerly]

If this new found aggression by local First managers spreads, then things could become very interesting in some other places.

Staying on the subject of Webberbus, they claimed they only found out about the loss of the Taunton P&R contract through the media. How believable is that?

Aggression? I'd say it was purely defensive, not aggressive !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When Matt mentioned the 377, I did wonder if they might just run to Somerton using two extra vehicles? 49 mins journey time plus some from Musgrave Park? Innovative to introduce a Sunday service - it used to have one til SCC pulled the subsidy?

x28 is the express from Taunton Stn to Butlins? Take it Mon and Fri are moving days? Could always borrow those two Irizars gently depreciating outside Muller Road!!

Yes that's right. Limited stop on changeover days. FSW has spare coaches if it's own in its rail fleet - 7 I believe, but these two are coming from the Truro college PVR as it's during school holidays and there are a pair with destinations and ticket machines.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Aggression? I'd say it was purely defensive, not aggressive !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes that's right. Limited stop on changeover days. FSW has spare coaches if it's own in its rail fleet - 7 I believe, but these two are coming from the Truro college PVR as it's during school holidays and there are a pair with destinations and ticket machines.

I expected them to come up from Cornwall; the Muller Road reference was very tongue in cheek. Agree with you in that WB have been the aggressor. Having built up tendered services, they then competed head on with First. Then they lost the NSC contracts because of poor performance....they then registered the 37/38 against First. Lose the P&R contract through poor performance....register the 12 and the 26!!


I found it hard to believe that WB found out they'd lost the contract through the media. For a start, the contract signed would have had escalation procedures built in and clear criteria for termination.

 

[South Westerly]

I expected them to come up from Cornwall; the Muller Road reference was very tongue in cheek. Agree with you in that WB have been the aggressor. Having built up tendered services, they then competed head on with First. Then they lost the NSC contracts because of poor performance....they then registered the 37/38 against First. Lose the P&R contract through poor performance....register the 12 and the 26!!


I found it hard to believe that WB found out they'd lost the contract through the media. For a start, the contract signed would have had escalation procedures built in and clear criteria for termination.

Their drivers were telling everyone for weeks that they were about to be sacked from the contract!

 

[THarris123]

Anybody have any more news on the 26? Is it going ahead yet or has the idea been totally forgotten? If it has, SCC should really update the timetables at Wells - it's beginning to get people confused!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Anybody have any more news on the 26? Is it going ahead yet or has the idea been totally forgotten? If it has, SCC should really update the timetables at Wells - it's beginning to get people confused!

Isn't it 28th Jul now?

 

[South Westerly]

Isn't it 28th Jul now?

It's not just the 26 they aren't running. All sorts not being covered.

 

[THarris123]

Yesterday was interesting - I saw a Webberbus solo pulling out of Wells saying Not In Service and had a bus load of staff. I wonder what they're up to? Let's give it a guess.

Obviously all ready to go with this service. Any ideas what buses they're putting on the 26. Versas or solos?

I must admit that I like the new 26. It fits in nicely with the 126 at nearly 30 minute interval - making it better for the customer. Unlike their 37/38 which runs 3 mins ahead of a First bus to Street - not very bright!

I still believe that Webberbus should be focusing more on services that are unique - unlike just copying Firsts services and competing against them. The 67 is a brilliant service for them. It's just ashame about the fares - it only costs £4.50 single from Wells to Wedmore and then if you show the driver the single, you pay out £1.00 for a return. Ridiculous system. Not the way to win more custom!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I must admit that I like the new 26. It fits in nicely with the 126 at nearly 30 minute interval - making it better for the customer. Unlike their 37/38 which runs 3 mins ahead of a First bus to Street - not very bright!

Whilst I appreciate you're trying to see this from a consumers point of view, the 26 is a very high risk move. Between Wells and Cheddar, there's just enough for one operator not two.

As for operating 3 mins ahead of First to Street, it's perhaps the only avenue they've got as First now operate 5 buses per hour or so. They should never have got involved in the 37/38 but thought they could keep encroaching on First and still meet lacklustre resistance. Clearly that's changed.

 

[THarris123]

Whilst I appreciate you're trying to see this from a consumers point of view, the 26 is a very high risk move. Between Wells and Cheddar, there's just enough for one operator not two.

As for operating 3 mins ahead of First to Street, it's perhaps the only avenue they've got as First now operate 5 buses per hour or so. They should never have got involved in the 37/38 but thought they could keep encroaching on First and still meet lacklustre resistance. Clearly that's changed.

Fair point about the demand - forgot about that. I think the busiest part they'll get is between Wells and Cheddar, but only share what's on the 126 - and that is only a B10 full at the best of times. I think Webberbus will do well with the older generation, but I think any students/commuters will use First due to complicated fares. Any idea what the fares are on the 26?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Fair point about the demand - forgot about that. I think the busiest part they'll get is between Wells and Cheddar, but only share what's on the 126 - and that is only a B10 full at the best of times. I think Webberbus will do well with the older generation, but I think any students/commuters will use First due to complicated fares. Any idea what the fares are on the 26?

The busiest part of the 126 is Winscombe to Weston. The pensioners don't have any loyalty as they don't pay! However, the regular passengers will probably stay with First (esp as they operate Eve/Sun).

 

[Private Baxter]

Haven't paid attention to the 126 lately. Have they upgraded the buses they use on the route, or have they not really been too fussed. Just wondering what response, if any, First have taken.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Haven't paid attention to the 126 lately. Have they upgraded the buses they use on the route, or have they not really been too fussed. Just wondering what response, if any, First have taken.

From what I've seen, the standard S and W reg B10BLEs continue to be used.

 

[richw]

Oh, and from what I gather First have made an excellent job of the Taunton P&R.

They've also done an excellent job of the Truro P&R, increasing frequency now as well as revenue within less than 12 months.

First seemed to have got rid of a number of areas they weren't making much money on, and have put strong focus on the remaining areas.
Cornwall and Somerset have seen much improved services in recent times.
Cornwall is reported to be receiving 12 plate Enviro 400s in September for a rebranding. We're apparently getting a blue livery, initially introduced on the 88 and 41, as U1, U2 & U3. From what I've heard like BoS these new branded routes will not have mention of First in their name.

 

[Busaholic]

They've also done an excellent job of the Truro P&R, increasing frequency now as well as revenue within less than 12 months.

First seemed to have got rid of a number of areas they weren't making much money on, and have put strong focus on the remaining areas.
Cornwall and Somerset have seen much improved services in recent times.
Cornwall is reported to be receiving 12 plate Enviro 400s in September for a rebranding. We're apparently getting a blue livery, initially introduced on the 88 and 41, as U1, U2 & U3. From what I've heard like BoS these new branded routes will not have mention of First in their name.

Just like to point out that the Truro park and ride is a Cornwall Council service using CC's buses which are operated for them by First, the drivers in the main having transferred from Western Greyhound when that firm lost the contract.

I see no evidence of much improved services in Cornwall in recent times on commercially-run routes; for instance, Helston to Penzance was 2 or 3 buses per hour, now one, plus an extra journey in each peak. It seems only when faced with competition from the likes of Western Greyhound, Truronian or Plymouth Citybus they get their act together.

 

[South Westerly]

Just like to point out that the Truro park and ride is a Cornwall Council service using CC's buses which are operated for them by First, the drivers in the main having transferred from Western Greyhound when that firm lost the contract.

I see no evidence of much improved services in Cornwall in recent times on commercially-run routes; for instance, Helston to Penzance was 2 or 3 buses per hour, now one, plus an extra journey in each peak. It seems only when faced with competition from the likes of Western Greyhound, Truronian or Plymouth Citybus they get their act together.

Actually, on the Truro Park and Ride only two of the six buses are owned by Cornwall Council. The other four are provided by First.

Getting ones act together means turning the business into a profitable sustainable one, something which they have now done.

 

[richw]

Just like to point out that the Truro park and ride is a Cornwall Council service using CC's buses which are operated for them by First, the drivers in the main having transferred from Western Greyhound when that firm lost the contract.

Although a management contract First have increased frequency above the required levels.
Only the Mercs belong to CC as the rest of CC's buses were torched, and have not yet been replaced. The Scania's are supplied by First.
First have almost doubled profits, which is a sign of strong management, especially when they are paying the drivers more than WG were.
The 2 was reduced due to the council pulling the subsidy, meaning the frequency was no longer economically viable. You can't expect a business to continue unviable frequency.

 

[Busaholic]

Although a management contract First have increased frequency above the required levels.
Only the Mercs belong to CC as the rest of CC's buses were torched, and have not yet been replaced. The Scania's are supplied by First.
First have almost doubled profits, which is a sign of strong management, especially when they are paying the drivers more than WG were.
The 2 was reduced due to the council pulling the subsidy, meaning the frequency was no longer economically viable. You can't expect a business to continue unviable frequency.

P&R is probably a subject best avoided by First given the publicity about the 'fiasco' at the Commonwealth Games with booked spectators unable to access a bus to take them to their event on both Saturday and, even more problematically, Sunday. It is perhaps lucky for First that they have not been named in any of the reports I've seen.

As I stated on another thread the Truro P&R started charging concession passholders last year £1 per journey, so in offpeak hours 15 or 20 people per bus paying £1 rather than travelling free brings increased income. The increased frequency mentioned is only between the P&R site and Treliske Hospital, where an even greater proportion of the passengers will be pensioners.

I absolutely understand that First has to make profits to stay in business - I've been self-employed these last 27 years. It wasn't me making the unsubstantiated claim that services in Cornwall were greatly improved when (as of this date) they have clearly not been. When Bob Hind, the ex-Arriva manager, did his nationwide bus tour for Buses magazine, of the 105 bus journeys it was only on First Cornwall's 'flagship' route between Truro and Falmouth that he experienced a breakdown, and that on a modern (by local standards) Trident!

 

[THarris123]

P&R is probably a subject best avoided by First given the publicity about the 'fiasco' at the Commonwealth Games with booked spectators unable to access a bus to take them to their event on both Saturday and, even more problematically, Sunday. It is perhaps lucky for First that they have not been named in any of the reports I've seen.

As I stated on another thread the Truro P&R started charging concession passholders last year £1 per journey, so in offpeak hours 15 or 20 people per bus paying £1 rather than travelling free brings increased income. The increased frequency mentioned is only between the P&R site and Treliske Hospital, where an even greater proportion of the passengers will be pensioners.

I absolutely understand that First has to make profits to stay in business - I've been self-employed these last 27 years. It wasn't me making the unsubstantiated claim that services in Cornwall were greatly improved when (as of this date) they have clearly not been. When Bob Hind, the ex-Arriva manager, did his nationwide bus tour for Buses magazine, of the 105 bus journeys it was only on First Cornwall's 'flagship' route between Truro and Falmouth that he experienced a breakdown, and that on a modern (by local standards) Trident!

Sorry to burst a bubble on this, but how is this to do with the 26 service run by Webberbus? No reason why this can't be posted to the First South West and Wales discussion.

Coming back to the 26, I see there was a Streetlite on there this morning with no one on there! I don't think they're doing very well. Has anyone seen any better numbers on this?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sorry to burst a bubble on this, but how is this to do with the 26 service run by Webberbus? No reason why this can't be posted to the First South West and Wales discussion.

Coming back to the 26, I see there was a Streetlite on there this morning with no one on there! I don't think they're doing very well. Has anyone seen any better numbers on this?

Fair point, we seem to have drifted but...

"When Bob Hind, the ex-Arriva manager, did his nationwide bus tour for Buses magazine, of the 105 bus journeys it was only on First Cornwall's 'flagship' route between Truro and Falmouth that he experienced a breakdown, and that on a modern (by local standards) Trident!"

....I've just had some time off work and have travelled on 111 different journeys. Lots of firms including First SA, BoS, Arriva Cymru, Go North East plus smaller firms from APL Travel and Abus. I too had one breakdown - Stagecoach in Bedford! Happens to all firms.

Back to the 26, it's probably a little early to get any meaningful observations. Regular farepayers will still have First travel tickets and many won't be aware given WB's penchant for lack of roadside publicity. The one I saw (last Monday's 1655 from Wells?) was not delayed by passengers!!

 

[South Westerly]

Fair point, we seem to have drifted but...

"When Bob Hind, the ex-Arriva manager, did his nationwide bus tour for Buses magazine, of the 105 bus journeys it was only on First Cornwall's 'flagship' route between Truro and Falmouth that he experienced a breakdown, and that on a modern (by local standards) Trident!"

....I've just had some time off work and have travelled on 111 different journeys. Lots of firms including First SA, BoS, Arriva Cymru, Go North East plus smaller firms from APL Travel and Abus. I too had one breakdown - Stagecoach in Bedford! Happens to all firms.

Back to the 26, it's probably a little early to get any meaningful observations. Regular farepayers will still have First travel tickets and many won't be aware given WB's penchant for lack of roadside publicity. The one I saw (last Monday's 1655 from Wells?) was not delayed by passengers!!

And lots of very quiet 15s today between Taunton and Bridgwater!