We need to talk about Castlefield again.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also fair, unfortunately it was rebuilt at the wrong time, when "everything through Castlefield" was the game. I still hope for the new Eastlands Arena being successful enough that the old one closes, and we could have a decent crack at rebuilding it again with twice as many platforms and a far higher quality passenger environment. That would basically solve the whole thing. Give it the feel of Picc main trainshed (rather than being old New St but worse) and nobody with any sense would ever want to cram themselves onto the horror that is Picc 13/14 ever again, even if it did mean a longer walk.

Are there not parts of that station that have listed status, such as the 1844 building. That is a matter that would pose a problem if rebuilding is proposed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there not parts of that station that have listed status, such as the 1844 building. That is a matter that would pose a problem if rebuilding is proposed.

You'd not need to knock down the 1844 bit, the bit that needs redeveloping is the 1990s bit that looks like a multi storey car park*. Then improve the facilities in the other bit, and rearrange it so the most prominent feature in the station isn't an ugly gateline (to be fair, the French have stuffed up some of their architecturally more impressive stations in this way, too).

* With having mentioned New St there's a slight irony that part of it (the B end tunnel I think) is actually...a redeveloped multi storey car park!

 

[Glenn1969]

The same issue applies to quite a few buildings at Huddersfield that are earmarked for rebuilding under the TRU plans. Even the tea room is listed. Be interested to see how they get round that and whether it delays the TWAO. As for Manchester something needs to happen sooner rather than later

 

[Purple Orange]

I'd say that's a bit far out.

What was probably needed was not to have closed Central.

Central would not be viable today and we couldn’t have a metro service to Alti, Didsbury etc etc. Plus yes, my suggestion of a new station at middlewood locks will also never happen. However there are several issues that have a high likelihood of remaining/being true:

1. The only new platforms in Manchester will be the 6 HS2 bay platforms at a surface station and at a push there may be new platforms on the Ordsall chord lines at Salford Central.
2. Metrolink is the only consistent method of expanding metro rail services in Greater Manchester.
3. The arena at Victoria will continue to stand long after the Eastlands arena has opened, resulting in no expansion of Victoria station.
4. TRU will likely be NPR (that is fine, although not perfect, as long as Leeds fasts can access Piccadilly HS2 and then the airport, thus avoiding a convoluted route through Castlefield).
5. 4-tracking castlefield will never happen.
6. P15 & P16 at Piccadilly through lines will never happen.
7. There will be no underground HS2/NPR station.
8. There will be no new build high speed NPR route via Warrington to Liverpool.

So with that all in mind, I think the only real hope for rail services across Greater Manchester is to push for more metrolink, electrification of existing heavy rail lines and ensure HS2 arrives with capability for Leeds/Newcastle services to use the HS2 platforms.

Everything else in the meantime is a case of muddling on through for the next couple of decades.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Vic has enough space for 2 bays, possibly even 3, butting up against the Arena north of the existing station. There is already a viaduct running to it, too, though no doubt it would need some considerable repairs.

If you added another bridge in the gap you could get 4 in.

Only problem is that they'd be a bit Picc 13-14 in terms of accessing them, you'd need to cross to P6 then walk all the way along.

I think 3 would be enough, big enough to take 6 car 331s with room for extension if required in future.

 

[HSTEd]

If there is no NPR to Liverpool then you can connect Manchester Airport HS2 to the Mid-Cheshire line without capacity difficulties.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If there is no NPR to Liverpool then you can connect Manchester Airport HS2 to the Mid-Cheshire line without capacity difficulties.

Well certain people thin the Mid-Cheshire line should only receive 1tph, so that won't go anywhere

 

[HSTEd]

Well certain people thin the Mid-Cheshire line should only receive 1tph, so that won't go anywhere

Well the Mid-Cheshire becomes much more interesting if it runs via the Airport.......

 

[cle]

Well the Mid-Cheshire becomes much more interesting if it runs via the Airport.......

It definitely has more potential. An airport routing (and HS2 link west of the MAN HS2 station) - could see much more usage. You could maybe curtail the Metrolink at Ashley or Hale, and send all passenger rail the airport way.


Plus imagine 2-tph from the HS2 line onto Knutsford (10 mins?!) and beyond. Could really impact car use, like a HS1 to Kent effect.

 

[Purple Orange]

If there is no NPR to Liverpool then you can connect Manchester Airport HS2 to the Mid-Cheshire line without capacity difficulties.

If there is no NPR line to Liverpool, I suspect that several NPR trains will continue to Crewe and beyond, with a couple going direct to Curzon Street.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there is no NPR line to Liverpool, I suspect that several NPR trains will continue to Crewe and beyond, with a couple going direct to Curzon Street.

Acknowledging this thread to fall under the "speculation" banner, what year period are you making reference to above?

 

[Purple Orange]

Acknowledging this thread to fall under the "speculation" banner, what year period are you making reference to above?

It can only be once HS2 Phase 2b to Manchester is open and crucially a link from Piccadilly HS2 to an electrified trans pennine mainline using the junction in the latest HS2 plans. So let's say 2035 at the earliest.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well the Mid-Cheshire becomes much more interesting if it runs via the Airport.......

It definitely has more potential. An airport routing (and HS2 link west of the MAN HS2 station) - could see much more usage. You could maybe curtail the Metrolink at Ashley or Hale, and send all passenger rail the airport way.


Plus imagine 2-tph from the HS2 line onto Knutsford (10 mins?!) and beyond. Could really impact car use, like a HS1 to Kent effect.

I'd personally still keep the train because Altrincham to Stockport is the busiest section of the route. But the 10 minutes to HS2 would do wonders for Knutsford and the surrounding area, except the house prices (depending on whether you rent or own).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd personally still keep the train because Altrincham to Stockport is the busiest section of the route. But the 10 minutes to HS2 would do wonders for Knutsford and the surrounding area, except the house prices (depending on whether you rent or own).

Are there still aspirational views on new rail stations between Altrincham to Stockport on that line?

 

[cle]

Altrincham-Stockport should really become part of a Met orbital line. Freight is the main issue. Would sort the Navvy Road one way situation out!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Are there still aspirational views on new rail stations between Altrincham to Stockport on that line?

I believe so with Gatley.

Freight is the main issue.

There's your problem, how will you solve it for the Northernden waste facility and Tata Chemicals Europe at Lostock Gralam?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe so with Gatley.

Where will this new Gatley station be located, considering the location of the existing Gatley station on the Styal Line?

 

[Ianno87]

Where will this new Gatley station be located, considering the location of the existing Gatley station on the Styal Line?

I think the proposal is for Cheadle station, slightly east of where the lines cross.

Baguley also seems to come and go as a proposal too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

6 platforms near Middlewood Locks is what is needed, with Metrolink connected to it. I’ll counter the argument that it is not central enough by saying that no station in Manchester is completely central and the city centre reaches this part of the world too.

Which Metrolink line did you have in mind in order to make the connection stated above? What tram frequency would be required for passengers disembarking at Middlewood Locks, especially in the morning and evening peak periods, where trains historically are always over-crowded on Manchester Victoria services.

 

[Purple Orange]

Which Metrolink line did you have in mind in order to make the connection stated above? What tram frequency would be required for passengers disembarking at Middlewood Locks, especially in the morning and evening peak periods, where trains historically are always over-crowded on Manchester Victoria services.

If it was a completely new location for a station, there are two options I can think of that could be implemented here. First, the only location for a new station would be where the retail park sits by Regents Road and it would need to be built in to the frequencies that could run from Media City/Eccles and Atherton.

1. The plans for the Atherton line & link to Media City would need come in through Chapel Street and John Dalton Street. A connection could be linked here via Oldfield Road to a new station where the retail park sits.
2. A line linked from Eccles & Media City via Middlewood Locks (Retail Park area) through to Water Street then on towards Bridge Street and joining the line from Atherton. There could be 10 tph from Eccles & Media City through the new station and 5 tph from the Atherton line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well the Mid-Cheshire becomes much more interesting if it runs via the Airport.......

Just to establish matters, in what year are we talking about where such a proposition looks a reality?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Just to establish matters, in what year are we talking about where such a proposition looks a reality?

Such a project should probably only be ready by the next decade. Realistically, probably post HS2

 

[Glenn1969]

I thought the Airport to Hale idea was one of GM's wishlist ideas and more likely to be a tram or a tram train. IMHO no earlier than 2040

 

[Purple Orange]

I thought the Airport to Hale idea was one of GM's wishlist ideas and more likely to be a tram or a tram train. IMHO no earlier than 2040

It is. It’s part of their 2040 strategy.

 

[Glenn1969]

But that is a wishlist and currently unfunded. It also doesn't help via Northwich train services get to the airport unless I missed something ?

 

[Purple Orange]

But that is a wishlist and currently unfunded. It also doesn't help via Northwich train services get to the airport unless I missed something ?

Everything is a wish list at some point - you cant just dismiss a plan because it is still in the early stages of development. The critical issue is that the plans are being worked on and business cases are being developed. There wouldn’t be any trains via Northwick to the airport as it is purely metrolink.

 

[Glenn1969]

The only way it will happen is if GM or TfN has devolved funding for transport so can decide on local priorities without consulting Whitehall. I know the new West Yorkshire mayor will have these powers over transport. Does Andy Burnham ?

 

[Purple Orange]

The only way it will happen is if GM or TfN has devolved funding for transport so can decide on local priorities without consulting Whitehall. I know the new West Yorkshire mayor will have these powers over transport. Does Andy Burnham ?

Yes the GM Mayor has devolved transport investment powers, but I don’t think the metro mayors have free reign. I’d say Metrolink expansion is one of the main levers in relieving Castlefield congestion and if the last 20 years has taught us anything, it is that Greater Manchester succeeds in getting new lines built.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Everything is a wish list at some point - you cant just dismiss a plan because it is still in the early stages of development. The critical issue is that the plans are being worked on and business cases are being developed. There wouldn’t be any trains via Northwick to the airport as it is purely metrolink.

It makes you wonder when looking at the area of Worcestershire where Northwick is situated, whether that would be a diversion too far...

 

[HSTEd]

I think we have got two entirely separate concepts mixed up here.

I was proposing that, given that its within a few hundred metres anyway, that in the situation where NPR to Liverpool via HS2 doesn't happen, we could just add a chord to allow Mid-cheshire line trains to be rerouted via the Airport into the HS2 platforms.

That is an entirely different concept from the ones currently in development.
It's me embracing my inner crayonista, although I think it is not too ridiculous as far as Crayonista things go.