WCRC Exemption from CDL (central door locking) regulations until September

[stuartl]

DMUs have underfloor diesel engines powerful enough to propel the train as well as provide hotel power. Would it not be possible to equip one of the Mk1 carriages in the rake with a small diesel or petrol power pack specifically to supply compressed air and power to the CDL system? Keep the vacuum brakes, steam heating and dynamo lighting, so very little power required and no need to reduce the passenger accommodation.

Would that need all sorts safety etc. approvals before it could be done? I think the previous reply has answered my question.

 

[Townsend Hook]

DMUs have underfloor diesel engines powerful enough to propel the train as well as provide hotel power. Would it not be possible to equip one of the Mk1 carriages in the rake with a small diesel or petrol power pack specifically to supply compressed air and power to the CDL system? Keep the vacuum brakes, steam heating and dynamo lighting, so very little power required and no need to reduce the passenger accommodation.

Realistically you’d be looking at installing a generator inside a brake van or something, it would be far easier than underfloor mounting. We have such things on the test train fleet so that we’re not reliant on locos for train supply. It would still need acceptance certification and if you’re going to that kind of effort, you might as well dispose of the dynamos and steam heat and run all the hotel power from the generator. Honestly it’s really not a bad solution. It wouldn’t need to be a dedicated vehicle or anything, it could use luggage van space that’s already present in the brake coach in each set.

With modern battery technology being what it is, you might be able to get away with a lithium-ion battery bank either underfloor or in a luggage van, rather than a generator.

 

[bleeder4]

BBC now reporting on the extension to February.

Harry Potter train operator wins extension to safety rule deadline

Journeys can continue on the Harry Potter railway line amid a legal wrangle over safety regulation.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[paul1609]

Realistically you’d be looking at installing a generator inside a brake van or something, it would be far easier than underfloor mounting. We have such things on the test train fleet so that we’re not reliant on locos for train supply. It would still need acceptance certification and if you’re going to that kind of effort, you might as well dispose of the dynamos and steam heat and run all the hotel power from the generator. Honestly it’s really not a bad solution. It wouldn’t need to be a dedicated vehicle or anything, it could use luggage van space that’s already present in the brake coach in each set.

With modern battery technology being what it is, you might be able to get away with a lithium-ion battery bank either underfloor or in a luggage van, rather than a generator.

I dont think that anybodies saying that its technically impossible. The issues really are the cost and the reliability, you are looking at introducing in the case of modern battery packs in to whats currently a very low tech operation. Id suggest that if you are going to do battery packs youd be better off having at least 2 packs distributed down the length of the train to intorduce a degree of redundancy. I dont know how many spare brakes wcrc currently have at Fort William but they would have to be similarly fitted if you have a single battery/ generator.
I think you then have to ask when are the ORR going to withdraw the next exemption for crash worthyness etc. etc. (see the SRPS case) unless you have definate timescales you have to judge whether the cost of the modification is worthwhile.
I dont intend to defend WCRC but you have to identify that its not an organisation that has a bottomless pit of taxpayer cash like Network Rail or the TOCs to bail it out.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The heritage or preservation scene is far more my thing these days the normal everyday main line operations, simply due to the chaotic state of the system generally but I think we may have reached a point where West coast, srps etc need to simply accept that running MK1 stock on main lines has been good as long as it's lasted but time is now up and change needs to happen. I am sorry to all those who will doubtless disagree with me

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

I can't help feeling that WCRC have made life harder for themselves by sticking to Vacuum Brakes. (Indeed, aren't they the last user of Vacuum on the Network?) If they had converted to Air Brakes then half the battle for fitting CDL would be won.
Pat

 

[Dryce]

I dont intend to defend WCRC but you have to identify that its not an organisation that has a bottomless pit of taxpayer cash like Network Rail or the TOCs to bail it out.

So maybe the solution is for HMG or Holyrood to treat WCRC as a TOC and contract it to run the service. (The comments made in the press about the supposed benefits to Mallaig of the Jacobite might arguably justify it should be treated as sacrosanct like the Scottish sleeper services).

 

[bleeder4]

I can't help feeling that WCRC have made life harder for themselves by sticking to Vacuum Brakes. (Indeed, aren't they the last user of Vacuum on the Network?) If they had converted to Air Brakes then half the battle for fitting CDL would be won.
Pat

Not quite the last. Vintage Trains at Tyseley still use vacuum braked coaches and locos.

 

[Townsend Hook]

So maybe the solution is for HMG or Holyrood to treat WCRC as a TOC and contract it to run the service. (The comments made in the press about the supposed benefits to Mallaig of the Jacobite might arguably justify it should be treated as sacrosanct like the Scottish sleeper services).

WCRC are a TOC already. However it’s hard to see why they should effectively be bailed out with public money if it’s deemed necessary that their stock needs to be fitted with CDL to keep the Jacobite running. It’s WCRC who have chosen not to invest in future-proofing their operation out of the profits they’ve earned on it over the last few decades, and instead to rely on a constant stream of exemptions.

If, hypothetically, the Scottish government was to invest in upgrading the rolling stock to preserve local economic benefits, they should then be taking part ownership of the Jacobite operation and receive a share of the profits going forwards.

 

[Bill57p9]

Has the stock been retrofitted with other current requirements such as controlled emission toilets (which SRPS have)?

Are there any other potential operators that could be interested in taking on what must be an economically viable operation and either have already or would be prepared to invest in stock to meet current regulatory expectations?
(LSL, I'm looking at you)

I can't help feeling that WCRC have made life harder for themselves by sticking to Vacuum Brakes. (Indeed, aren't they the last user of Vacuum on the Network?) If they had converted to Air Brakes then half the battle for fitting CDL would be won.
Pat

Speaking of LSL, bubble cars are vacuum braked though granted that one example is extremely niche.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Has the stock been retrofitted with other current requirements such as controlled emission toilets (which SRPS have)?

Are there any other potential operators that could be interested in taking on what must be an economically viable operation and either have already or would be prepared to invest in stock to meet current regulatory expectations?
(LSL, I'm looking at you)

Realistically at present LSL would be the only other operator capable of operating the service. It would almost certainly be too far outside of the comfort zone of Vintage Trains, and given the current financial situation at DB Cargo I can’t imagine them wanting to operate the service on behalf of a hypothetical third-party promoter even if suitable engines and rolling stock could be sourced.

 

[davethebus002@]

Realistically at present LSL would be the only other operator capable of operating the service. It would almost certainly be too far outside of the comfort zone of Vintage Trains, and given the current financial situation at DB Cargo I can’t imagine them wanting to operate the service on behalf of a hypothetical third-party promoter even if suitable engines and rolling stock could be sourced.

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Everyone seems to think it's just about the jacobite service but what about the Northern belle set and the rakes of coaches they have down south for tours out of London I think these are included too

 

[Brush 4]

The way forward for the movement in general, is to have new build MK1's. They would look the same externally and internally as much as regulation allows but be brand new, built to the latest standards. Replica steam and diesel locos are proliferating, replica coaching stock should - literally - follow.

 

[Bill57p9]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2023 ==

Everyone seems to think it's just about the jacobite service but what about the Northern belle set and the rakes of coaches they have down south for tours out of London I think these are included too

Agreed that the derogation affects all those operations, however those are air braked and electrically heated which should (at least theoretically) make retrofit CDL a realistic proposition using existing designs.

 

[Killingworth]

This morning I've received an email promoting the Jacobite's 2024 services 7 days a week starting on 28th March to 25th October. Morning and afternoon for most of the season. Book now.

 

[bleeder4]

This morning I've received an email promoting the Jacobite's 2024 services 7 days a week starting on 28th March to 25th October. Morning and afternoon for most of the season. Book now.

Yes I received the same email. It's also all over their social media pages and their website. A tad premature if you ask me, since the JR is still in progress. Unless they plan to operate the train using Mk 2 coaches.

On a side note, it's ridiculously expensive now. £65 return in Standard Class, for a journey which you can do for £16.40 with ScotRail. Another comparison - the Shakespeare Express that Vintage Trains run is only £35 return, so half the price.

 

[12LDA28C]

The heritage or preservation scene is far more my thing these days the normal everyday main line operations, simply due to the chaotic state of the system generally but I think we may have reached a point where West coast, srps etc need to simply accept that running MK1 stock on main lines has been good as long as it's lasted but time is now up and change needs to happen. I am sorry to all those who will doubtless disagree with me

Many passengers enjoy travelling on Mark 1 stock. If this is to be removed from the network, what stock do you suggest replaces it, and where would that stock come from? You seem to think there are dozens of air-braked Mark 2s sat around in sidings ready to be brought into traffic at any given moment. You might be surprised to learn that that isn't the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2023 ==

The way forward for the movement in general, is to have new build MK1's. They would look the same externally and internally as much as regulation allows but be brand new, built to the latest standards. Replica steam and diesel locos are proliferating, replica coaching stock should - literally - follow.

Is this a serious suggestion? How much do you think that would cost, and who would fund it? Never going to happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2023 ==

 

[trebor79]

Semi-serious, but maybe the answer is for someone to buy the line off Network Rail, allow Scotrail to continue to run their service for a track access fee and run it as a heritage line? It's only going to get more and more difficult to run heritage rolling stock on the "national network", even a quiet branch line.
I suspect the line consumes way more money in maintenance than it recoups in track access charges, so it could be a win win for everyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I know the window-leaning issue can be dealt with differently on preserved lines (by ensuring there's nothing you can bang your head on if you do lean out) does anyone reckon they will eventually need to install CDL? I do, and that creates a potential market for some sort of basic system that can be fitted to unpowered Mk1s and Mk2s?

If WCRC worked together with the preserved lines you could get the economies of scale too.

 

[357]

Many passengers enjoy travelling on Mark 1 stock.

I think most passengers want an engine on the front that goes chuff chuff toot toot and a carriage with a door that slams and opens with a handle. Preferably compartments.

 

[anothertyke]

Agreed that the derogation affects all those operations, however those are air braked and electrically heated which should (at least theoretically) make retrofit CDL a realistic proposition using existing designs.

Everything WCR does is vac braked apart from the Northern Belle.

Yes I received the same email. It's also all over their social media pages and their website. A tad premature if you ask me, since the JR is still in progress. Unless they plan to operate the train using Mk 2 coaches.

On a side note, it's ridiculously expensive now. £65 return in Standard Class, for a journey which you can do for £16.40 with ScotRail. Another comparison - the Shakespeare Express that Vintage Trains run is only £35 return, so half the price.

Do you really think that the day after Mrs Thornton hands down her judgement ORR are going to say ' That's you off the road until they are fixed'? No, like Vintage and SRPS, there will be a conversation and there will be an agreed action plan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think most passengers want an engine on the front that goes chuff chuff toot toot and a carriage with a door that slams and opens with a handle. Preferably compartments.

But also, and this is more of a challenge, windows that open so you can smell and (just about) hear the "engine" going "chuff chuff toot toot".

Thus, if you stuck Mk4s behind it (or something), even if you paint them maroon and stick fake doorhandles on the outside, the appeal would be reduced.

It is possible to retrofit opening windows to late Mk2 stock, to be fair, Virgin did it (for the inevitable aircon failures) on the WCML sets. But anything later than that would seem to miss the point a bit. Having said that, didn't Ireland have fresh air Mk3s so retrofitting those with openers might be an option?

 

[Killingworth]

But also, and this is more of a challenge, windows that open so you can smell and (just about) hear the "engine" going "chuff chuff toot toot".

Thus, if you stuck Mk4s behind it (or something), even if you paint them maroon and stick fake doorhandles on the outside, the appeal would be reduced.

It is possible to retrofit opening windows to late Mk2 stock, to be fair, Virgin did it (for the inevitable aircon failures) on the WCML sets. But anything later than that would seem to miss the point a bit. Having said that, didn't Ireland have fresh air Mk3s so retrofitting those with openers might be an option?

Restricting the amount a sliding window can open to prevent heads going out must be fairly simple. Bars can go over door windows although that spoils the look but still allows an arm to get through to reach a handle.

There's the problem. Some idiot being able to get to the door and open it while the train is in motion. Surely a very low possibilty if door controlling stewards are designated at each end of each carriage.

As stewards are mostly volunteers paid expenses that's a resource that can be quickly arranged, or not. (Accommodation around Fort William may be an issue.) Retrofitting central door locking will be possible at a price but how long would it take?

Further compomise? Extended derogation to allow retrofitting?

 

[12LDA28C]

I think most passengers want an engine on the front that goes chuff chuff toot toot and a carriage with a door that slams and opens with a handle. Preferably compartments.

And part of that appeal is era-appropriate stock, steam-heated when necessary. Which means Mark 1s. Plenty of negative comments on this forum about steam locos being used on Mark 3 stock which has occurred several times recently.

 

[3RDGEN]

The WCRC CDL exemption relates to 120 plus vehicles of MkI, II & III types which explains the £7 million cost they quoted given it's not just a simple fitment, if they fit all the vehicles is debatable given MkI's in general are only currently exempted until 2028 for crash worthiness issues.

Re the Jacobite service if they loss the CDL exemption then they could try downgrading it to 25mph and follow the NYMR Grosmont to Whitby model which ORR have currently accepted to 2028. If the ORR didn't allow that model then it brings into question the NYMR exemption and preserved railways that operate at 25mph in general. The Jacobite services currently have 25mins or so at Glenfinnan which could be removed to allow for the slower running times, the morning return service would need to be retimed as it doesn't have the long Glenfinnan stop.

 

[357]

And part of that appeal is era-appropriate stock, steam-heated when necessary. Which means Mark 1s. Plenty of negative comments on this forum about steam locos being used on Mark 3 stock which has occurred several times recently.

I think this forum is most likely not an accurate reflection of the customer base for the WHL steam services. I feel most of the clientele won't even know what you mean by steam heat, nor care.

 

[jamieP]

Everything WCR does is vac braked apart from the Northern Belle.

Not true. They do have some dual braked MK1s and air brakes MK2s use on tours.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think this forum is most likely not an accurate reflection of the customer base for the WHL steam services. I feel most of the clientele won't even know what you mean by steam heat, nor care.

They'll certainly feel cold in certain weather conditions without it. Or are you suggesting they're that clueless they won't be able to tell if the train is cold or warm?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They'll certainly feel cold in certain weather conditions without it. Or are you suggesting they're that clueless they won't be able to tell if the train is cold or warm?

I think they're saying they wouldn't care whether it was steam or electric heat as long as there was heat.

 

[Graham H]

I think most passengers want an engine on the front that goes chuff chuff toot toot and a carriage with a door that slams and opens with a handle. Preferably compartments.

Not a fan of compartments personally but having been on a Saphos tour in a mk2 with no hoppers or vents and looking out of door windows strictly forbidden then I have to say I didnt hear or even see the steam loco that was hauling us and we were in the 3rd coach on the return. To be fair I may have been unlucky as most of the coaches were mk1 but I did feel those of us in the coffin coach should have got a discount ! Maybe pipe the sound you could hear in a mk1 with opening vents into the PA so we could enjoy it and the odd puff of smoke smell through the aircon would have been nice....joking of course