WCR - Jacobite 2026

[Iskra]

I’d love to see a 33 tour to there

Yes, me too, would seem like low-hanging fruit really.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The K1 has been under overhaul at Carnforth.

 

[Isle of Mull]

Does west coast still have use of 6233?

 

[martin butler]

Does west coast still have use of 6233?

No it's in bits inside west shed undergoing its ten yearly

 

[Isle of Mull]

No it's in bits inside west shed undergoing its ten yearly

It will be nice to see it back soon

 

[37069]

It will be nice to see it back soon

I don't think it'll be back any time soon.

 

[Isle of Mull]

I don't think it'll be back any time soon.

Ah

 

[Dave S 56F]

Ah

I think the situation with 6201 Princess Elizabeth it needed work on its firebox throat plate and when came out of traffic in 2021 and at the time the Princess Elizabeth Trust said they were short of funds to carry out the work as far as what I've seen about it been at Carnforth it's had a new Ash pan made and the boiler stripped for examination.

 

[37069]

I think 6233 is having bottom end work completed at the moment, and is still off its wheels. Once rewheeled, the plan is for the boiler to come off, as the firebox needs work.

 

[Gunslinger]

Don't hold your breath to expect anything too soon. As reported by the BBC yesterday:
"The ORR said no agreement had been reached on an exemption and the application was being reviewed.
A spokesperson said: “We note that West Coast Railways recognises the need for Central Door Locking on the Mk1 carriages it operates.
“However, work remains to establish the feasibility, detail, and delivery timeline of the proposed approach.
“ORR has not issued any exemption to the relevant requirements of the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 in relation to this matter.”

 

[RKynaston]

I think that's quite positive, clearly a commitment made to the ORR to fit CDL on all the stock, not just the Jacobite. What it does do is, no matter what anyone on here thinks, pass the buck to the ORR if the Jacobite doesn't run this season.

To be honest, that aim was made in September last year when they applied. There is no passing the buck. The ORR can only awarded Regulation 5 exemption if there is a plan in place to fit the fleet with CDL with an agreed timescale. The emphasis of how to do, when and proving that the system is safe is all on the operator. Nobody else.

Been reported elsewhere that West Coast have fitted seven Mark 1s with CDL for the Jacobite, to be used on the morning train. So hopefully just a formality for the CDL to be signed off by the ORR? The press release reads that the start of the Jacobite will not be that far off.

Jacobite won't start until the ORR have made a decision on Regulation 5 exemption.

Why on earth did they just not fit the CDL before, why go through court cases, spending money, that would have been better spent complying with the regulator's requirements.

As a company, the owner took the decision to challenge, then hold his ground.

No, the buck is, and always has been, with WCR for not making the safety improvements that other operators have.

As you say, it is a WCR decision as whether they comply with the rules or not, if not, they do not operate.

Does this include a set for RTC tours or just Jacobite

Yes. Nationwide

Indeed. WCRC have something in the region of 66 Mk1 vehicles currently with Regulation 4 exemptions from ORR.

I do note that the only current Regulation 5 (CDL) exemption is NYMR, i.e. all other operators have completed fitting CDL. Am I correct in recalling that some operators had temporary exemptions in 2024 and possibly 2025 whilst they fitted CDL?

All operators are given time to fit CDL, and during that time, an exemption can be granted, but does not have to be.

Don't hold your breath to expect anything too soon. As reported by the BBC yesterday:
"The ORR said no agreement had been reached on an exemption and the application was being reviewed.
A spokesperson said: “We note that West Coast Railways recognises the need for Central Door Locking on the Mk1 carriages it operates.
“However, work remains to establish the feasibility, detail, and delivery timeline of the proposed approach.
“ORR has not issued any exemption to the relevant requirements of the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 in relation to this matter.”

The application remains under review. Normally it takes around four months, assuming that all of the information is with the application when submitted, which I gather was not the case here, and some was only provided a few weeks ago.

 

[cf111]

And of course, the 2015 Wootton Bassett SPAD is frankly unforgiveable. That, combined with the following incident at Doncaster where they were found to have been isolating safety systems again, is truly appalling.

Frankly I'd have pulled their licence for good after Wootton Bassett which could have been a most serious tragedy. That's not a criticism of Network Rail as obviously they need to balance the legal tests where as I, some bloke on a message board, don't have that issue.

Regards the Jacobite I doubt ORR will budge, I don't see why they should either.

 

[martin butler]

If ORR were to allow West Coast to operate without CDL fitted, they might be taken to court by LSL, who were not given any leave way to fit CDL, they when they started operating as a rolling stock operator were not allowed any such allowance, with their MK1 set.

As regards West Coast's safety record, I would imagine that ORR's officers are keeping a very close eye on the compliance It was a pure chance that an off-duty ORR inspector happened to be on the Jacobite, and witnessed that the rules were not being followed,

The story is that he brought it to the notice of someone on the train, possibly a steward, who might have said what's it to do with you, so he produced his ORR card, and it became official. next day All West coasts non fitted coaches were stopped. at least that's what I was told by someone in the industry,

 

[43096]

It was a pure chance that an off-duty ORR inspector happened to be on the Jacobite, and witnessed that the rules were not being followed,

The story is that he brought it to the notice of someone on the train, possibly a steward, who might have said what's it to do with you, so he produced his ORR card, and it became official. next day All West coasts non fitted coaches were stopped. at least that's what I was told by someone in the industry,

If you want to believe that, fine. Personally, I suspect there had been a tip-off to the ORR.

 

[Killingworth]

If you want to believe that, fine. Personally, I suspect there had been a tip-off to the ORR.

In view of the long standing resistance of WCR to full compliance and regular requests for special treatment I don't find it at all surprising that at least one ORR employee would take in the Jacobite as part of a holiday in Scotland. A very natural thing to do to see what it was all about. That very resistance was tip off that limits would be pushed so all the more reason to ensure conditions were complied with.

 

[Stephen42]

If ORR were to allow West Coast to operate without CDL fitted, they might be taken to court by LSL, who were not given any leave way to fit CDL, they when they started operating as a rolling stock operator were not allowed any such allowance, with their MK1 set.

LSL did have an exemption for CDL until 2023. A senior person at LSL spoke at the judicial review stating the ORR were flexible in their fitment and worked to ensure ongoing operations could continue. That person did say they were at a commercial disadvantage to WCR on costs as WCR were trying to avoid CDL costs. LSL didn't get an exemption beyond 2023, likely as their fitment was complete. I don't think there's anything in the public domain that LSL were unhappy other operators got until 2024 or 2025.

A challenge to any ORR decision on WCR by other parties is unlikely in my view. It will be expensive, far from certain they will prevail and any perceived financial injury to a competitor from the decision will be hard to evidence. The time for a judicial review decision may make any overturn moot, with WCR having progressed sufficiently far in fitment to run their most profitable services.

 

[renegademaster]

If they fitted it and got everything done do they still need to wait for some kind of certification it's compliant?

 

[craigybagel]

Frankly I'd have pulled their licence for good after Wootton Bassett which could have been a most serious tragedy. That's not a criticism of Network Rail as obviously they need to balance the legal tests where as I, some bloke on a message board, don't have that issue.

Regards the Jacobite I doubt ORR will budge, I don't see why they should either.

As bad as Wooton Bassett was, it's the reaction since that scares me. You'd think being seconds away from a massive accident would have made the high ups have a period of reflection about what it takes to run a safe railway these days. And yet they still throw a tantrum every time they're expected to follow the same rules and standards as everyone else.

I've actually got a holiday in Fort William planned this summer, and I have no intention of giving WCR a single penny. I take great pride in the professionalism of the industry I work in and they're a stain on that same industry.

In view of the long standing resistance of WCR to full compliance and regular requests for special treatment I don't find it at all surprising that at least one ORR employee would take in the Jacobite as part of a holiday in Scotland. A very natural thing to do to see what it was all about. That very resistance was tip off that limits would be pushed so all the more reason to ensure conditions were complied with.

Given their history I'd be surprised and disappointed if ORR weren't paying them extra attention.

Don't hold your breath to expect anything too soon. As reported by the BBC yesterday:
"The ORR said no agreement had been reached on an exemption and the application was being reviewed.
A spokesperson said: “We note that West Coast Railways recognises the need for Central Door Locking on the Mk1 carriages it operates.
“However, work remains to establish the feasibility, detail, and delivery timeline of the proposed approach.
“ORR has not issued any exemption to the relevant requirements of the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 in relation to this matter.”

Is anyone else predicting a press release about how the big bad ORR are holding things and are to blame if this year's season ends up starting late?

 

[hexagon789]

If they fitted it and got everything done do they still need to wait for some kind of certification it's compliant?

Yes, it appears so. The ORR have seemingly said as much.

 

[bleeder4]

It was a pure chance that an off-duty ORR inspector happened to be on the Jacobite, and witnessed that the rules were not being followed,

No it wasn't. The judicial review says the following: "the ORR conducted an unannounced and anonymous inspection of the Jacobite train on 9 June 2023 following a report by a whistle-blower about the operation of train doors on the service".

You can read it yourself here, it's on page 14.

https://assets.caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/admin/2023/3338/ewhc_admin_2023_3338.pdf

 

[Baxenden Bank]

No it wasn't. The judicial review says the following: "the ORR conducted an unannounced and anonymous inspection of the Jacobite train on 9 June 2023 following a report by a whistle-blower about the operation of train doors on the service".

You can read it yourself here, it's on page 14.

https://assets.caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/admin/2023/3338/ewhc_admin_2023_3338.pdf

Whistle-blower, isn't that usually the guard.

 

[Bill57p9]

Regards the Jacobite I doubt ORR will budge, I don't see why they should either.

I do agree, however the elephant in the room is that this isn't just about The Jacobite.

The Jacobite operates on a single track (with passing loops) branch line at relatively slow speeds (40mph maximum for The Jacobite, 50mph maximum Scotrail), which is a step up from the NYMR Grosmont - Whitby operation, but remains recognisable.

However the exemption applications have always been for their entire operation: Nationwide with WCRC slam door trains operating at up to 95mph alongside TOCs running at up to 125mph. This is an entirely different proposition and it is absolutely right that all operators are held to the same modern standards.

 

[Dave S 56F]

Looks as well like black 5 44871 courtesy of riley & son E L.T.D. locomotive engineers is imminently days away from steaming again on the mainline after a heavy general fastrack overhaul. See their Facebook site for full details.

45212 black 5 to follow imminently I strongly presume and this could require more work as its at the end of its 10 year boiler certificate and could be in the riley & son E L.T.D. locomotive engineering works a fair while.

 

[martin butler]

Looks as well like black 5 44871 courtesy of riley & son E L.T.D. locomotive engineers is imminently days away from steaming again on the mainline after a heavy general fastrack overhaul. See their Facebook site for full details.

45212 black 5 to follow imminently I strongly presume and this could require more work as its at the end of its 10 year boiler certificate and could be in the riley & son E L.T.D. locomotive engineering works a fair while.

45163, Has now entered the works for restoration,

Did anyone see green flags, the question of the Jacobite came up on that, and Nigel Harris had a discussion with the head of ORR, and so far, nothing has been agreed and at the very least it's going to take 4 months before any decision can be made,

if West Coast intends to use MK1's they will have to already be fitted with CDL and have been accepted as being compliant.

Note, for the forum members who don't know. Green Flags is a railway podcast by Richard Bowker and Nigel Harris.

 

[Steam4Max]

45163, Has now entered the works for restoration,

Did anyone see green flags, the question of the Jacobite came up on that, and Nigel Harris had a discussion with the head of ORR, and so far, nothing has been agreed and at the very least it's going to take 4 months before any decision can be made,

if West Coast intends to use MK1's they will have to already be fitted with CDL and have been accepted as being compliant.

Note, for the forum members who don't know. Green Flags is a railway podcast by Richard Belcher and Nigel Harris.

(If this isn't allowed then sorry, thought it might make peoples life easier)

 

[CW2]

Richard Bowker.

 

[anothertyke]

45163, Has now entered the works for restoration,

Did anyone see green flags, the question of the Jacobite came up on that, and Nigel Harris had a discussion with the head of ORR, and so far, nothing has been agreed and at the very least it's going to take 4 months before any decision can be made,

if West Coast intends to use MK1's they will have to already be fitted with CDL and have been accepted as being compliant.

Note, for the forum members who don't know. Green Flags is a railway podcast by Richard Belcher and Nigel Harris.

Green Signals. A pretty good ten mins

I don't think that's quite what is said.

My take is

1. The application for an exemption takes four months on average to be determined from the date of successful submission (?March).

2. The exemption application will be considered on its merits by the Regulator following due process.

3. The big change is that WCR have decided to fit CDL to their Mk 1 fleet. That is the one thing which has changed right now.

 

[Harpo]

3. The big change is that WCR have decided to fit CDL to their Mk 1 fleet. That is the one thing which has changed right now.

Although, unless something has changed, the definition of that fleet and its size has yet to be revealed, i.e. is it just a few Jacobite vehicles?

 

[Rail Ranger]

AFAIK it is their entire main line Mark 1 fleet.

 

[Harpo]

AFAIK it is their entire main line Mark 1 fleet.

Agreed. But the unknown is (I believe) how many vehicles that entails.