WCR - Jacobite 2026

[Dave S 56F]

NYMRs dispensation is also strictly limited to between Grosmont and Whitby which is single track without any passing loops. I believe the argument here is that this operation therefore cannot interact with any other trains on the mainline (other than when in Whitby platform 2).

Also, as evidenced above, NYMR have a track record of sticking to the conditions of their exemption.

In the summer of 2024 I travelled from Pickering to Whitby on the midday steamer and I got scolded for window hanging.

As for WCR, I just wish they would get their house in order and fit CDL to Mk 1 carriages.

 

[Tetragon213]

NYMR - Who take Mark 1 stock out onto the main railway (at least from Grosmont to Whitby) have door locking of some sort (minimal but enough) and enforce no window hanging very strictly along the last part of the line - but you're telling me WCR can't do it. They need to sort themselves out.

Iirc WCR has put bars over the windows to at least limit the possibility of window-hanging, which strangely puts them in a better place than GWR/FGW was in only a few years back when some idiotic drunkard stuck their head out of a HST window and got decapitated at 125mph. (side note: personally, I think it should be a "hanger beware" thing, and not strictly banned; there are blatantly better things for guards and the ORR to be doing than watching a few people sticking a head or basher's salute out of a window at <25mph on most heritage lines)

But as for CDL? They've been running on exemption for a decade, they knew this day was coming eventually, so I firmly agree they only have themselves to blame. I sincerely hope they can get the Mk1s sorted soon, as I am very keen on bringing some family members on the Jacobite tour with the Harry Potter style Mk1s (none of them are rail people, but all are firm Harry Potter fans!)

Incidentally, if the Caledonian Sleeper/first service of the day from Queen Street is delayed, do hold up the Jacobite to allow the connection on to the morning service? Seeing as there's only one road in and out of Fort William Station to the Junction.

 

[H F Stephens]

Incidentally, if the Caledonian Sleeper/first service of the day from Queen Street is delayed, do hold up the Jacobite to allow the connection on to the morning service? Seeing as there's only one road in and out of Fort William Station to the Junction.

The Jacobite isn’t generally held as to do so could ‘spread the contagion’ of the delay along the Extension to Glenfinnan at least.

 

[37069]

Iirc WCR has put bars over the windows to at least limit the possibility of window-hanging

WCR vehicles don't have window bars - that's LSL.

 

[Pinus contorta]

WCR vehicles don't have window bars - that's LSL.

Weren't they running some services along Cumbrian Coast line through the Bransty Tunnel before it's closure? How did they get away with none?

 

[37069]

Weren't they running some services along Cumbrian Coast line through the Bransty Tunnel before it's closure? How did they get away with none?

The window clearance issue is Maryport-Carlisle, not Bransty. Vehicles with opening windows need stewards keeping passengers from trying to open them, which seems to be the national standard these days.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Incidentally, if the Caledonian Sleeper/first service of the day from Queen Street is delayed, do hold up the Jacobite to allow the connection on to the morning service? Seeing as there's only one road in and out of Fort William Station to the Junction.

Many years ago, when arriving on a late sleeper, the Jacobite was not held for us, but all intending passengers were put on a bus at Fort William, which then caught up the Jacobite during its layover at Glenfinnan, so we at least got to do most of the journey.

Things may well have changed since though, and if WCR don't get their act together, it may be an academic question anyway!

 

[TheBeard]

They might get more custom running it from Carnforth to Barrow loop it round the avoided.. simples

 

[SwindonManor]

NYMRs dispensation is also strictly limited to between Grosmont and Whitby which is single track without any passing loops. I believe the argument here is that this operation therefore cannot interact with any other trains on the mainline (other than when in Whitby platform 2).

Also, as evidenced above, NYMR have a track record of sticking to the conditions of their exemption.

This is true - but the point still stands. NYMR can stick to it (it's not the same conditions but still)
So why can't WCR?
They will lose money but they'll gain so much more by complying

 

[Tetragon213]

This is true - but the point still stands. NYMR can stick to it (it's not the same conditions but still)
So why can't WCR?
They will lose money but they'll gain so much more by complying

Because WCR is, to put it lightly, not a great organisation. In addition to their rather shocking safety problems, they also allowed a Grade II listed signal box to rot away under their noses until it collapsed at Carnforth.

The Jacobite isn’t generally held as to do so could ‘spread the contagion’ of the delay along the Extension to Glenfinnan at least.

Makes sense, even if it is a bit unfortunate. I would have expected an allowance considering how many people would be trying to board from

WCR vehicles don't have window bars - that's LSL.

Thank you for the correction. Rather surprising they've gotten away with that one. I'm assuming their stewards will police window hanging, then?

 

[Stephen42]

This is true - but the point still stands. NYMR can stick to it (it's not the same conditions but still)
So why can't WCR?
They will lose money but they'll gain so much more by complying

The ORR is the body that grants exemptions and decides what is acceptable. They have allowed NYMR to operate without central door locking with a limited scope. Namely restricted to one line of route, at most 25mph operation and secondary locks plus stewards. That exemption will potentially have been on the basis that the safety risk is not higher than for their heritage railway not covered by the regulations.

WCR on the other hand have no exemption and were informed many years ago of the change in policy. They mounted a legal challenge at the last moment which failed and have run alternative hired stock already fitted previously. Even if it became top priority, there will only be so much capacity to fit vehicles as it is a specialised task. NYMRs exemption doesn't require them to have any such system. No knowledge of exactly how long, but not quick is the general answer.

Two years later after the legal challenge failed they are reported to have applied for an exemption on the basis they will fit it. Other operators were granted similar exemptions though they started soon after being told. WCR instead don't appear to have got very far with fitting their stock in the more than five years since the policy change was announced. It's a lot harder to justify granting extra time for compliance when they've spent years making no effort to comply. It's unclear if the ORR has made a decision or when they will expect to make a decision.

What's been reported isn't very specific either "several years" to fit rather than a short period of time. A cynic might say they are trying to get an exemption to maximise profitability and will make as little effort as possible to actually fit the stock.

 

[Iskra]

This is true - but the point still stands. NYMR can stick to it (it's not the same conditions but still)
So why can't WCR?
They will lose money but they'll gain so much more by complying

They've already gained a lot by not complying.

 

[Rail Ranger]

But they've said that the Jacobite is not financially viable using Mark 2s as in the past two years.

 

[Iskra]

But they've said that the Jacobite is not financially viable using Mark 2s as in the past two years.

But they could have easily used the profits from the previous years to do the necessary work...

 

[Rail Ranger]

Of course they could.

 

[Bill57p9]

But they could have easily used the profits from the previous years to do the necessary work...

Absolutely. And used the winter “off season” without the Jacobite operating as the stock down time to do the work.

The ORR is the body that grants exemptions and decides what is acceptable. They have allowed NYMR to operate without central door locking with a limited scope. Namely restricted to one line of route, at most 25mph operation and secondary locks plus stewards. That exemption will potentially have been on the basis that the safety risk is not higher than for their heritage railway not covered by the regulations.

The current NYMR exemption has similar operating constraints as the previous “whole network“ 5 year exemptions enjoyed by various operators, WCRC included. NYMR‘s previous exemption also covered Grosmont to Battersby.
Their current exemption differs from their previous in some crucial ways - that clearly demonstrate ORR being even handed:

• Limited to 25mph (previously their main line operation was 40mph, which is the same maximum speed as The Jacobite). The whole reason CDL (& mk1 crashworthiness) isn’t a requirement on preserved lines is because the rules apply to railways (not just trains) operating above 25mph.
• Limited to Grosmont - Whitby only. As my previous post, this means no passing places - hence it can be argued that it is a 25mph railway when NYMR are operating.

Whilst it might be possible to find a 25mph path for The Jacobite, the route has passing loops and the path crosses other trains. I do not know whether ORR would consider an exemption limited to 25mph: Whilst the passing loops at Arisaig and Glennfinnan are limited to 15mph, the short double track section at Inverlochy is 40mph in both directions, therefore unlike the NYMR operation it is possible for The Jacobite to interact with other trains travelling in excess of 25mph.

Obviously the right answer is to fit CDL to allow the service to continue with a heritage period feel whilst accepting modern safety requirements.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Yea I suppose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2026 ==


Yea that I also agree with, but
WCR have contributed massively to the economy especially in Mallaig so yea

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2026 ==

If I am perfectly honest at least they've finally stopped shooting themselves in the foot with the CDL. At least they're suddenly bothering because they're making a loss. The sad truth is the more I think about it, unless they had a very serious threat or (as they did) made a loss, I don't think WCR would honestly have listened to the ORR and the CDL regulations.

That is the irony though. The Jacobite is regarded by many as the Golden Goose, but as of yesterday passengers are (still) not able to book tickets for it. In my view this is a direct consequence of belligerence by the WCR senior management in their ongoing battle with ORR over CDL.

This is having a negative effect on the Scottish tourism industry and disagree that WCR have stopped "shooting themselves in the foot"

 

[martin butler]

West coast has had exactly the same opportunities as every other operator to fit CDL to the coaches,
Others have complied whereas West coast took ORR to court to try to force them to somehow not to have to do it,

Given their past record, I would say West Coast are very lucky to actually still have a licence to operate, ORR could have easily decided, to rescind every operating licence they hold, based on West coasts own past behaviour.

 

[SwindonManor]

I can tell people are very opinionated about this...it is bad for those wanting to book tickets (me included)

 

[Wyrleybart]

I can tell people are very opinionated about this...it is bad for those wanting to book tickets (me included)

That is the nub of it. The ORR are the regulator of the rail industry and need to provide a safe environment for the industry to operate.
Regarding CDL (Central Door locking) every other operator has complied with the ORR directives, but after 2 seasons of operating air cons fitted with CDL, they now appear to be expecting ORR to grant an exemption.

But the fact WCR have not opened the bookings up for 2026 suggests they are either not interested or are playing brinkmanship with ORR

 

[Gunslinger]

That is the nub of it. The ORR are the regulator of the rail industry and need to provide a safe environment for the industry to operate.
Regarding CDL (Central Door locking) every other operator has complied with the ORR directives, but after 2 seasons of operating air cons fitted with CDL, they now appear to be expecting ORR to grant an exemption.

But the fact WCR have not opened the bookings up for 2026 suggests they are either not interested or are playing brinkmanship with ORR

Except that they have been accepting bookings for tour groups from numbers of operators, including Great Rail Journeys, starting from 26th April.

 

[philthetube]

Absolutely. And used the winter “off season” without the Jacobite operating as the stock down time to do the work.

The current NYMR exemption has similar operating constraints as the previous “whole network“ 5 year exemptions enjoyed by various operators, WCRC included. NYMR‘s previous exemption also covered Grosmont to Battersby.
Their current exemption differs from their previous in some crucial ways - that clearly demonstrate ORR being even handed:

• Limited to 25mph (previously their main line operation was 40mph, which is the same maximum speed as The Jacobite). The whole reason CDL (& mk1 crashworthiness) isn’t a requirement on preserved lines is because the rules apply to railways (not just trains) operating above 25mph.
• Limited to Grosmont - Whitby only. As my previous post, this means no passing places - hence it can be argued that it is a 25mph railway when NYMR are operating.

Whilst it might be possible to find a 25mph path for The Jacobite, the route has passing loops and the path crosses other trains. I do not know whether ORR would consider an exemption limited to 25mph: Whilst the passing loops at Arisaig and Glennfinnan are limited to 15mph, the short double track section at Inverlochy is 40mph in both directions, therefore unlike the NYMR operation it is possible for The Jacobite to interact with other trains travelling in excess of 25mph.

Obviously the right answer is to fit CDL to allow the service to continue with a heritage period feel whilst accepting modern safety requirements.

/with West Coast's reputation for following rules there would be absolutely no chance of this happening even if it were practical to do it.

 

[Harpo]

Because WCR is, to put it lightly, not a great organisation. In addition to their rather shocking safety problems, they also allowed a Grade II listed signal box to rot away under their noses until it collapsed at Carnforth.

The collapsed signalbox’s remains are still on site, uncovered & fully visible from passing trains as a (symbolic?) part of the WCRC shop window.

Passing on a Barrow line train just this week an elderly lady called it ‘the train graveyard’, an unprompted public perception that would trouble any other organisation.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Except that they have been accepting bookings for tour groups from numbers of operators, including Great Rail Journeys, starting from 26th April.

Great. I am really pleaseed. But........
when the first goo*gle search for Jacobite tells you tickets are still not on sale, it is not a great marketing tactic for the company.
Who would you believe ? Third part promoters, or the WCR own webpage ?

 

[Forty29]

Unless WCR decide to run the service for the likes of Third party promoters only with MK2 stock and a diesel if steam not available, alot of ordinary punters wanting to buy tickets are going to be out of luck. But if The Jacobite does eventually run this way when they fail to get ORR authorisation tickets will be offered for sale at the last possible minute?
And yes, Carnforth does look like a train graveyard dumping ground.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Even if they eventually do decide to run the Jacobite, only one steam loco is available (45407). 44871 is undergoing overhaul. So only one of the two daily trains will be able to be steam hauled and even then not every day due to boiler washouts etc.

 

[martin butler]

Even if they eventually do decide to run the Jacobite, only one steam loco is available (45407). 44871 is undergoing overhaul. So only one of the two daily trains will be able to be steam hauled and even then not every day due to boiler washouts etc.

I can see West coast giving up on mainline steam in effect David Smith taking his ball, and walking off with it, I don't know the man's age but i would think he is now getting on, selling everything, and setting up a museum for the engines he owns,

 

[Isle of Mull]

I can see West coast giving up on mainline steam in effect David Smith taking his ball, and walking off with it, I don't know the man's age but i would think he is now getting on, selling everything, and setting up a museum for the engines he owns,

I’d that were to happen the RTC would most likely be out of business too, which is not great.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I can see West coast giving up on mainline steam in effect David Smith taking his ball, and walking off with it, I don't know the man's age but i would think he is now getting on, selling everything, and setting up a museum for the engines he owns,

Born August 1946. Son, born July 1977, also involved.

Farmer Smith bought Aysgarth Station close to the Wensleydale Railway and can play trains, in private, flapping his hi-vis vest to his hearts content, to no-ones annoyance.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I can see West coast giving up on mainline steam in effect David Smith taking his ball, and walking off with it, I don't know the man's age but i would think he is now getting on, selling everything, and setting up a museum for the engines he owns,

Possibly, but why would he be progressing the overhauls of black fives 44767 45110 and probably jubilees and 35018.