WCML two track timetable problems

[Class15]

Hi all, I’m currently on 1A72 Liverpool to Euston and we’re losing time as we’ve been put behind a stopper (2Y50 Birmingham to Euston) at Rugby. Bizarrely we were not allowed to overtake it at Milton Keynes, and I wonder if the last opportunity for an overtake (Tring to Bourne End Jn where the slow lines seem to be open) will be used (hopefully it will!). Other than that it’s two track throughout tonight. Any reason why this decision was made to let 2Y50 out first as it seems very counter-intuitive?

Realtime Trains | 1A72 1943 Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston | 08/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 1A72 1943 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston on 08/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2Y50 2006 Birmingham New Street to London Euston | 08/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 2Y50 2006 departure from Birmingham New Street to London Euston on 08/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Class 170101]

Probably such a minimal difference in time. You should arrive Euston 22:47ish only 10 minutes late.

 

[zwk500]

Fundamentally, the decision was made to keep 2Y50 to time because 1A72 presented to Rugby 10 minutes late. 2Y50 would normally be routed via Northampton but the Northampton Loop is closed today.

To have let 1A72 in front at Rugby would have required holding 2Y50 for 12 extra minutes or so, when they'd already sat at Rugby for 20 minutes to match up the booked path with the diversion.
To have let 1A72 in front at MKC would have required holding 2Y50 for about 6-8 extra minutes, as 1A72 was booked to call MKC and needs 2 minutes to do that, plus was approaching slower for Yellow Aspects, and then would need to clear the pointwork to let the route be reset for 2Y50.

Putting 2Y50 into 5 at MKC instead of 4 also means sending everybody up and over the bridge. Can be done, but another factor to consider.

Holding 2Y50 at MKC would probably have resulted in a handful fewer minutes to both trains overall. But would have resulted in 2 trains running late rather than 1. Some of these calls aren't easy to make from the Workstation, without the benefit of hindsight.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Sometimes the WCML is not the smartest at regulation ..I have been on the 07.30 from Euston ...a Glasgow train that has followed the 07.33 .. from Euston to Manchester (via Crewe) ....So in effect trains in wrong order. With the Glasgow 6L start.

Now the 07.30 Glasgow is first stop Warrington and the 07.33 is first stop Stafford ...where of course it has to loop..

So the "Fat Controller" rather than giving the Glasgow "The Road" at Stafford whilst the Manchester was looped doing its station stop.. The Glasgow got held on the through line at Stafford with the Manchester tiddled and diddled in the platform.

Result: connection at Lancaster to Windermere lost. Everyone for Oxenholme and Windermere 60L ...full refund .. Avanti pays the price for poor regulation.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hi all, I’m currently on 1A72 Liverpool to Euston and we’re losing time as we’ve been put behind a stopper (2Y50 Birmingham to Euston) at Rugby. Bizarrely we were not allowed to overtake it at Milton Keynes, and I wonder if the last opportunity for an overtake (Tring to Bourne End Jn where the slow lines seem to be open) will be used (hopefully it will!). Other than that it’s two track throughout tonight. Any reason why this decision was made to let 2Y50 out first as it seems very counter-intuitive?

Realtime Trains | 1A72 1943 Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston | 08/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 1A72 1943 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston on 08/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2Y50 2006 Birmingham New Street to London Euston | 08/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 2Y50 2006 departure from Birmingham New Street to London Euston on 08/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I’m slightly confused what the problem was 1A72 was 10 minutes late passing Rugby and then didn’t loose any more time arriving at Euston still 10 minutes so not sure where your question about missing time came from?

2Y50 was allowed to run on time and ran to time.

 

[Class15]

I’m slightly confused what the problem was 1A72 was 10 minutes late passing Rugby and then didn’t loose any more time arriving at Euston still 10 minutes so not sure where your question about missing time came from?

2Y50 was allowed to run on time and ran to time.

It would have easily made up its delay through pathing time by Euston.

Fundamentally, the decision was made to keep 2Y50 to time because 1A72 presented to Rugby 10 minutes late. 2Y50 would normally be routed via Northampton but the Northampton Loop is closed today.

To have let 1A72 in front at Rugby would have required holding 2Y50 for 12 extra minutes or so, when they'd already sat at Rugby for 20 minutes to match up the booked path with the diversion.
To have let 1A72 in front at MKC would have required holding 2Y50 for about 6-8 extra minutes, as 1A72 was booked to call MKC and needs 2 minutes to do that, plus was approaching slower for Yellow Aspects, and then would need to clear the pointwork to let the route be reset for 2Y50.

Putting 2Y50 into 5 at MKC instead of 4 also means sending everybody up and over the bridge. Can be done, but another factor to consider.

Holding 2Y50 at MKC would probably have resulted in a handful fewer minutes to both trains overall. But would have resulted in 2 trains running late rather than 1. Some of these calls aren't easy to make from the Workstation, without the benefit of hindsight.

Thank you, good points made.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It would have easily made up its delay through pathing time by Euston.

But in doing so shifting at least 10 minutes worth of delay to 2Y50 which was due off Rugby at 21.16, at that time 1A72 was still at Nuneaton.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Sometimes the WCML is not the smartest at regulation ..I have been on the 07.30 from Euston ...a Glasgow train that has followed the 07.33 .. from Euston to Manchester (via Crewe) ....So in effect trains in wrong order. With the Glasgow 6L start.

Now the 07.30 Glasgow is first stop Warrington and the 07.33 is first stop Stafford ...where of course it has to loop..

So the "Fat Controller" rather than giving the Glasgow "The Road" at Stafford whilst the Manchester was looped doing its station stop.. The Glasgow got held on the through line at Stafford with the Manchester tiddled and diddled in the platform.

Result: connection at Lancaster to Windermere lost. Everyone for Oxenholme and Windermere 60L ...full refund .. Avanti pays the price for poor regulation.

Alternatively: Avanti pays the price for failing to dispatch the Glasgow on time despite the heavy emphasis on the right time railway. Unless you know what exactly caused the late start you can't really pass judgement.

 

[zwk500]

So the "Fat Controller" rather than giving the Glasgow "The Road" at Stafford whilst the Manchester was looped doing its station stop.. The Glasgow got held on the through line at Stafford with the Manchester tiddled and diddled in the platform.

Could well have been Avanti's own controller who made the call not to let the Glasgow overtake.

Result: connection at Lancaster to Windermere lost. Everyone for Oxenholme and Windermere 60L ...full refund .. Avanti pays the price for poor regulation.

As has already been said, Avanti paid the price for failing to get the Glasgow out on time. If it had been purely down to bad regulation, NR would be required to compensate Avanti per Schedule 8.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Alternatively: Avanti pays the price for failing to dispatch the Glasgow on time despite the heavy emphasis on the right time railway. Unless you know what exactly caused the late start you can't really pass judgement.

I am not sure judgement is being passed on the 6L start .. The judgement is failure to regulate at Stafford .

 

[zwk500]

I am not sure judgement is being passed on the 6L start .. The judgement is failure to regulate at Stafford .

And if you'd been on the Manchester held for 3 minutes at Stafford to let the late-running Glasgow overtake, which led to you being late into Piccadilly and missing your onwards connection, you'd be fuming at the on-time train being held for the late runner...

Equally, letting the Glasgow get ahead of the Manchester may have simply led it to be held at Crewe for the movement that should have crossed behind it, as it would not recover all 6 minutes from being checked at Stafford behind the looped Manchester to Crewe.

To quote the 1950s British Transport Film 'Elizabethan Express'
"But while every passenger knows the importance of his own special train arriving in time,
The men in control rooms must weigh in the balance the claims of one thousand, one hundred and nine."

 

[Falcon1200]

Sometimes the WCML is not the smartest at regulation

Regulating trains when there is late running is a no-win situation; Either a late train becomes later or an on-time train is delayed, with in both cases multiple possible repercussions, not always obvious - To anyone. During my time as an NR Controller we considered we were being as fair and even-handed as possible if we got roughly equal numbers of complaints from the multiple operators we dealt with.

 

[The Planner]

I am not sure judgement is being passed on the 6L start .. The judgement is failure to regulate at Stafford .

If you delayed the Manchester, it would have ended up behind the Northern stopper from Crewe to Wilmslow, or that would have been delayed itself. It could well have delayed the Crewe Euston out P11 at Crewe as well.