GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I had not seen that. Thanks for posting.
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WCML substations
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tb2
Member
The remaining substations of K11 type are no longer true feeders - atleast on the WCML south they're simply track sectioning breakers that allow appropriate switching for isolations etc.
Elecman
Established Member
Some aren’t even that now but just signalling supply points for the 650v supplies from the Auxiliary transformers
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Good to hear they were problematic decades ago
GraphitProjekt
Member
Seems like Acton Lane was renewed in the 1990s unless the outdoor switchgear is just for the NLL (can't really tell from google earth). So that just leaves Washwood Heath, Willenhall and Stafford as original sites. Unless we take a different view of what counts as WCML South in which case we might count Crewe, Kidsgrove and (soon to be no longer) Speke.
thecrofter
Member
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Yes Acton Lane was fully converted to SMOS (structure mounted outdoor switchgear) to cover both WCML and NLL. As for other K11 sites still in use (as TSC's), mostly in the West Midlands area, which technically comes under West Coast South jurisdiction. These being: Coventry, Berkswell, Marston Green, Stechford, New Street, Coseley, Wolverhampton, Gailey and Perry Bar.
GraphitProjekt
Member
On the topic of the original WCML system. I recently came across digitisations of the 1960 British Transport Commission Conference on Electrification randomly on a website about model rail resources: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/RailwayElec1960.html
They're a really enlightening source for the early schemes particularly Great Eastern and WCML but also some stuff around Glasgow. I was mostly interested in the articles on power supply and electrical control but there are plenty others regarding overhead line, construction techniques, testing and rolling stock. There are whole papers dedicated to describing the Oil and Air insulated switchgear types.
The most eye catching diagram they had was in the electrical control paper which showed this overview of an even fuller WCML South project. It includes electrification of several lines that didn't occur until much later under different schemes and some lines that have been completely lifted since than. But most curiously, it speaks about a Walsall Control Room alongside Willesden, Rugby and Crewe. I'm assuming this never existed but maybe others know something more about it. The designation of control boundaries doesn't seem to make much sense in this picture because they don't seem to all (or even mostly) occur at neutral sections. It was previously heard the Willesden/Rugby boundary was Leighton Buzzard. But other sources looked like it was at Church Brampton/Weedon. Maybe it was moved down to Leighton Buzzard when the Northampton area went to AT feeding in the mid 1990s. That would make sense.
Interesting that they originally intended to electrify back then the Chase Line, the future Cross City northern section, two connections Leamington Spa, the now lifted Dudley-Walsall-Lichfield route, and a little diversion around Northampton. I suppose a lot of it represents the commuter trains at that time. I wonder how the power supply in the Birmingham area would have been affected by having more cross connections to the Trent Valley line but with the same feeder stations. I've condensed the above map down into a diagram as follows:
They're a really enlightening source for the early schemes particularly Great Eastern and WCML but also some stuff around Glasgow. I was mostly interested in the articles on power supply and electrical control but there are plenty others regarding overhead line, construction techniques, testing and rolling stock. There are whole papers dedicated to describing the Oil and Air insulated switchgear types.
The most eye catching diagram they had was in the electrical control paper which showed this overview of an even fuller WCML South project. It includes electrification of several lines that didn't occur until much later under different schemes and some lines that have been completely lifted since than. But most curiously, it speaks about a Walsall Control Room alongside Willesden, Rugby and Crewe. I'm assuming this never existed but maybe others know something more about it. The designation of control boundaries doesn't seem to make much sense in this picture because they don't seem to all (or even mostly) occur at neutral sections. It was previously heard the Willesden/Rugby boundary was Leighton Buzzard. But other sources looked like it was at Church Brampton/Weedon. Maybe it was moved down to Leighton Buzzard when the Northampton area went to AT feeding in the mid 1990s. That would make sense.
Interesting that they originally intended to electrify back then the Chase Line, the future Cross City northern section, two connections Leamington Spa, the now lifted Dudley-Walsall-Lichfield route, and a little diversion around Northampton. I suppose a lot of it represents the commuter trains at that time. I wonder how the power supply in the Birmingham area would have been affected by having more cross connections to the Trent Valley line but with the same feeder stations. I've condensed the above map down into a diagram as follows:
Elecman
Established Member
On your plans Northampton definitely has a TSC located just South of the station, don’t remember one at Roade unless that was the name for Ashton
GraphitProjekt
Member
Good point, I was just copying how the original map seemed to have labelled that TSC as Roade. But checking google earth, I can see an old building amongst Ashton MPATS.
At Northampton, there is indeed a few old looking buildings opposite the overflow carpark where the viaducts diverge for former line to Blisworth. So a good chance that could be the old TSC. I guess it was made redundant when Kingsthorpe and Hunsbury Hill ATSs came in.
Another thing I noticed scanning some of these sites on google earth is that there are even a few West Midlands substations with podium autotransformers installed and never used. We were talking earlier about ATs on both lines to Manchester but it surprises me how much WCRM thought they would just run AT everywhere. Really makes me think how many more supergrid connections were planned out for the subsidiary routes. At least Nechells (for Washwood Heath) has 275kV present.
I spotted ATs at Coventry, Berkswell, Marston Green, Winson Green, Coseley, Wolverhampton and even on the avoiding route at Aston and Perry Bar. Possibly showing how midway through the project was when it was cancelled, I did not find any at Stetchford, Proof House Jnc, Washwood Heath, Willenhall, Gailey, Galton Jnc or New Street (although I'm not totally sure where New Street TSC is - best guess is the flat building next to the rather retro PSB building.
At Northampton, there is indeed a few old looking buildings opposite the overflow carpark where the viaducts diverge for former line to Blisworth. So a good chance that could be the old TSC. I guess it was made redundant when Kingsthorpe and Hunsbury Hill ATSs came in.
Another thing I noticed scanning some of these sites on google earth is that there are even a few West Midlands substations with podium autotransformers installed and never used. We were talking earlier about ATs on both lines to Manchester but it surprises me how much WCRM thought they would just run AT everywhere. Really makes me think how many more supergrid connections were planned out for the subsidiary routes. At least Nechells (for Washwood Heath) has 275kV present.
I spotted ATs at Coventry, Berkswell, Marston Green, Winson Green, Coseley, Wolverhampton and even on the avoiding route at Aston and Perry Bar. Possibly showing how midway through the project was when it was cancelled, I did not find any at Stetchford, Proof House Jnc, Washwood Heath, Willenhall, Gailey, Galton Jnc or New Street (although I'm not totally sure where New Street TSC is - best guess is the flat building next to the rather retro PSB building.
Elecman
Established Member
Birmingham TSC is exactly where you suggest it is.
What you think are AT transformers at the WM TSCs are the Auxiliary transformers and Harmonic Dampers
GraphitProjekt
Member
Oh right okay, so these things resting on podiums are actually nothing to do with the AT system? I've been seeing them all across the North West & Central region and into Scotland. This rather changes a lot of assumptions I've been making...
Elecman
Established Member
Yes those are Harmonic dampers and nothing to do with the AT system
GraphitProjekt
Member
Can you (or anyone!) tell me a little more about them? What they do/what problem they addressed?
Were they another part of WCRM that was carried into the NR PSU? Their rollout is quite prolific.
Were they another part of WCRM that was carried into the NR PSU? Their rollout is quite prolific.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
God, I love this site. I learn so much from it. I wish I could give back and contribute more!
GraphitProjekt
Member
I know what you mean! I've been slowly collecting all the insights across the forum on this topic and physically locating them into a rather unwieldly Google Earth project! Finally getting the picture in one place.
Elecman
Established Member
In a nutshell they dampdown( reduce) the level of harmonic frequencies induced into the OLE by the Pendolinos
GraphitProjekt
Not associated with this thread but have been trying to post a reply to our conversation re early GER electrification. Although only some text it is rejected as "likely to be spam-like or contains inappropriate content" and suggests contacting an admin. However, I cannot find a way to contact an admin. Can anyone show me how.
PeteK
GraphitProjekt
Member
The "report" link bottom left of any message is the only mechanism for this as far as I know
thecrofter
Member
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As Elecman says.
They were hurriedly introduced by WCRM as a Safety Case requirement before Virgin was allowed to introduce the Class 390 fleet in the 2008 VHF timetable. There were two Dampers per electrical feeding section (one for redundancy) to lessen the effects of the Pendolino generated harmonics into the 25 kV 50 Hz supply. A greater understanding of the overall system operation plus the introduction of AT (and Return Screening Conductors) subsequently led to their displacement.
The Auxiliary Transformers at K11 sites you have seen on Google Earth were 650 V Signalling Supply Transformers connected to the main busbar. Back then, the main 650 V supply was provided by the REB (now DNO) with the auxiliary transformer being the stand by supply. Come Solid State Interlocking, these transformers couldn't operate quickly enough with supply variations (25 kV is not just 25 kV you know) to maintain the required output so became defunct over time.
GraphitProjekt
Member
I see, that explains why at least one damper pair I've observed has been removed (Ditton TSC).
Does this mean that within Preston and Carlisle signalling areas, 25kV PSPs are more likely to be in use?
The practice of using 25kV to power signalling does strike me as odd. Especially that it's the backup and not the main source. Because surely there are more likely reasons to switch off the overhead line compared to failures of DNO supplies (especially if they're 6.6-11kV sourced as one might expect for a 650V output), so you'd try and use the overhead line source in normal operation. As well as PSPs derived within traction substations, I also have seen many PSPs operating purely off the overhead line circuits as structure mounted transformers, typically with a switch to select between up or down lines.
Furthermore, I can understand it where lines were converted from localised mechanical signalling to an early generation of PSBs, but as far as I'm aware, new electrification schemes to the present day still create PSPs in the same way. I know this is at least true for Core Valley lines.
I hadn't actually made any particular notes of smaller equipment within TSC sites (some would surely be for the substation's own LV needs), only really the boxes on podiums which I had assumed where a different variety of AT as opposed to the ground mounted ones especially as so many seem to have been unplugged making me assume they were mothballed AT infrastructure. A silly notion in retrospect because most transformers have a distinctive oil tank that of course the dampers don't have.
Does this mean that within Preston and Carlisle signalling areas, 25kV PSPs are more likely to be in use?
The practice of using 25kV to power signalling does strike me as odd. Especially that it's the backup and not the main source. Because surely there are more likely reasons to switch off the overhead line compared to failures of DNO supplies (especially if they're 6.6-11kV sourced as one might expect for a 650V output), so you'd try and use the overhead line source in normal operation. As well as PSPs derived within traction substations, I also have seen many PSPs operating purely off the overhead line circuits as structure mounted transformers, typically with a switch to select between up or down lines.
Furthermore, I can understand it where lines were converted from localised mechanical signalling to an early generation of PSBs, but as far as I'm aware, new electrification schemes to the present day still create PSPs in the same way. I know this is at least true for Core Valley lines.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Is that the RMS value - root mean square?
Elecman
Established Member
I think he means the massive variation seen in the supply voltage from 19kV upwards
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Most older SSPs /PSPs in OLE areas are now ussually DNO 400 volt as primary supply and traction derived as secondary back up. The newer ones are the opposite and the DNO is the back up supply.
TSCs/Feeder stations wether original or AT have thier own 400 volt domestic supplies
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GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Wow that is massive.
The data logger on 89001 recorded 15 kV when taking power after passing through Garstang neutral section on the northbound test run on 18/03/2026; and the voltage didn't recover to above 20 kV for another five minutes. This was a day of big WCML delays (surely not!) after there had been OLE problems near Leyland, so presumably there were some 'unusual' feeding arrangements in force at the time.
This did however have the benefit of proving that the 89's power limit functionality was working correctly.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Amazing. I know that as part of the proposed WCML north power supply upgrade, Catterall is proposed to be upgraded and a new Grid Feeder built at Penwortham and AT feeding introduced.
zwk500
Veteran Member
15KV is quite remarkable given the standards have a lowest voltage of 17.5kV for a nominal 25kV system.
25 kV AC railway electrification - Wikipedia
Hi,
It is only since we have adopted European standards that a tighter voltage range is being attempted on new electrification and there is evidence that some in the industry would like to go back to the old values for cost reasons.
Not really considering that BR designed for a "normal" voltage from 16.5kV to 27.5kV with excursions down to 12.5kV for no more than 2 minutes and up to 29kV for no more than 5 minutes.15KV is quite remarkable given the standards have a lowest voltage of 17.5kV for a nominal 25kV system.
25 kV AC railway electrification - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It is only since we have adopted European standards that a tighter voltage range is being attempted on new electrification and there is evidence that some in the industry would like to go back to the old values for cost reasons.
thecrofter
Member
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That was indeed the source for my cryptic comment in post #169.
With the advent of Solid State Interlocking (SSI), the backup Signalling Supply Transformers couldn't maintain a constant enough output for SSI with the wide variations in the OLE supply. Back in the 1990's, a trial was conducted at Long Buckby with a Solid State Static Converter made by Thorn Automation (now Ultra) of Rugeley with an associated OLE fed 25 kV transformer. Whilst the product proved unreliable in trial operations (Gate Turn Off thyristors were in early development then and suffered multiple failures), the concept paved the way for the future Signalling Supply Points that we have now. I believe the Transformer may still be in situ at Long Buckby behind the old TSC.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Interesting, thanks
thecrofter
Member
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Here's a nugget from my archives. Original 1963 Euston - Manchester - Liverpool Electrification Major Switching Diagram (what we'd now call a Major Feeding Diagram). A few amendments over the years but last updated 1993 for Manchester Airport / Heald Green. Hope it's readable as it was a large TIFF file I've converted to JPG. Should give Graphitprojekt something to chew on.