GRALISTAIR
Established Member
The WCML upgrade wiki article and/or the North West Electrification schemes seem the best imho.
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WCML substations
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Elecman
Established Member
Willow Park is fed from Parkside 132kV Grid Point
GraphitProjekt
Member
They're pretty good on wider politicy/organisational context stuff that I don't know about. Not a lot of technical detail on either though. It's a background aspiration of mine to add technical info on grid supplies and feeding arrangements to wikipedia pages if i can find citable sources, there's pretty much nothing of the sort on pages about GB railways. The GEML page is the only one I've gotten to so far.
Do you have the MVA for its 2 supplies? I presume it's not 80 or 104 like most ATFSs seem to be.
GraphitProjekt
Member
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....gramme-to-strengthen-britains-busiest-railway
They don't mention power supply in any way, but could this nonetheless involve that work? Network Rail press releases are not known for their comprehensive technical accuracy.
It highlights OLE renewal on the approach to Piccadilly and through Birmingham. Am I right in guessing that those parts were not upgraded from Mark1 during WCRM? So therefore that OLE will be a lot more worn out than the core route.
They don't mention power supply in any way, but could this nonetheless involve that work? Network Rail press releases are not known for their comprehensive technical accuracy.
It highlights OLE renewal on the approach to Piccadilly and through Birmingham. Am I right in guessing that those parts were not upgraded from Mark1 during WCRM? So therefore that OLE will be a lot more worn out than the core route.
59CosG95
Established Member
I'm sure both the Piccadilly approach and the lines through New Street have had sporadic contact wire renewals, but AFAIK there's been no wholesale renewal of the equipment (e.g. catenary, cantilevers, any tensioning arrangements) since the 1960s. Lots of oxidised copper through New Street in particular.
GraphitProjekt
Member
Which design would they be changing to?
thecrofter
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As you say, the media brief doesn't mention the Power Supply at all despite the overdue renewals around Birmingham having been 'kicked down the road' for many years. From memory, there are eight substations (exc. Stafford FS on hot standby) of early 1960's vintage with Oil filled Switchgear & Cowans K11 Circuit Breakers, still in service that were due for planned renewal many years ago, but as always estimated costs keep getting in the way. The risk of failure, and the conseqences of such, is increasing with each Control Period that fails to address the issue. A feasibility study was undertaken many moons ago on feeding the West Midlands from outside in, rather than inside out as it is now but the appetite was lacking.
59CosG95
Established Member
No idea, but based on Kings Cross, it could well be UKMS (Series 1, Series 2 and SICAT) cherry-picked to suit, or it could be like-for-like swapouts with Mk3D or UK1 - it's down to the route asset engineers at the end of the day.
GraphitProjekt
Member
Did WCRM plan to put in an ATFS at Crewe? There's no transmission grid nearby so would that be a 132kV fed ATFS?
thecrofter
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Elecman
Established Member
The ATFS substation building is already onsite at Crewe alongside the Manchester line
GraphitProjekt
Member
There was an old briefing document about WCRM phase 3 floating around the internet, gone now but I have it saved. Describing it as SATS/FS is interesting. I guess this means Crewe would feed in AT mode south to Whitmore but Classically up to Chelford (and indeed classically to Kidsgrove), or was Crewe intended to be the midpoint between Weaver and Brereton and only feeds the main route in N-2 situations like at Parkside.
Not entirely relevant, but I found this picture of Willesden ECR which I thought was notable if anything because I don't know of another picture of it.
Presumably the installation next to the Mannin House site. I understood that these buildings were supplied complete with switchgear, so is this ATFS actually complete, except for +/- 25kV supply and connections to OLE?
WAO
What does "next to" mean?
That briefing presentation lists the site as new, and as a SATS at Tommy's Lane, Winsford, 158mi 780yd (i.e. 35ch; Crewe North Junction is at 158mi 18ch.) Tommy's Lane runs from the big roundabout behind Crewe station north and round beside the Up Manchester Loop line.
The end part is now a gated NR compound (earmarked for use on HS2 2a, though presumably never used for it). That distance comes by my reckoning very close to a long shed (appeared by 2011) and three ATs next to it (appeared in 2018) - obviously the SATS.
The map has SATS/FS at Crewe, which I took to mean "we'll built a SATS but we don't know if we would - or could - feed power in there". I'm assuming that the extra kit needed to convert a SATS to an ATFS is too little to be visible. I'd expect to see some new conduit runs or signs of trenching, but can't.
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GraphitProjekt
Member
I think Tommy's Ln is mentioned because it's the access to the whole area including the old FS. This is my guess, I've been marking up a Google Earth project with NW&C region substations categorised by scheme. Obviously that's Crewe North Jnc at the bottom of the picture so I'd imagine the SATS is 27 chains away from there. The neutral sections on both lines are quite some distance away: on the Manchester line at 158m 76c referred to as "Sydney Bridge NS" and on the mainline at 159m 0c named "Crewe Coal Yarc NS".
I would have thought new equipment for feeding the SATS in AT mode would be found at the SPManweb 132kV "Crewe" substation where the current 132/25kV transformers are. It's been mentioned elsewhere that the connection is currently 15MVA. I'm sure if they replace the single pole transformers with 132/50kV dual pole for AT feeding they'll want more MVA than that - but I don't think they could get up to the 80MVA mark that most ATFSs tend to be off of a 132kV substation. This is what makes me think Crewe SATS might be intended to act as a mid-point on the main route between Weaver and Brereton while feeding classically on the Manchester line. Or perhaps Weaver is inteded to go all the way to Whitmore.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Your not going to get 80MVA off that location at 132kV and given there is no 275/400kV anywhere near Crewe the proposal must have been for maybe 30MVA.
GraphitProjekt
Member
That's what made me think it might not have been intended to supply the mainline in normal arrangements, but instead feed the route to Manchester. Looking around at the Manchester line I noticed the intermediate substations were fitted with ATs presumably never been used (Sandbach and Chelford). Similar scene on the Macclesfield route at Prestbury and North Rode (edited weeks later; there were no such ATs)
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Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Seems a lot has been spent on ATF across WCML which has never been bought into use not a good advert for the industry.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Yes AT insulators etc but nothing else installed from Euxton Junction way past my house at the Barton and Broughton loop start all the way to at least Catterall.
GraphitProjekt
Member
yeah, going back all the way to 2009 streetview imagery and the same ABB branded ATs are stuck on podiums up the Macclesfield and Wilmslow routes. Doesn't look like they got as far as attempting to install ATF insulators on the OLE. But i'd be quite interested to know what the original extents of WCRM were (with regards to implementing AT feeding). It looks like they stopped trying with regards to subsidiary routes quite a long time ago. Also what about Scotland? It looks like Harker and Elvanfoot where moved onto transmission grid sources at some point, so how far north was AT intended to spread? Carstairs?
thecrofter
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You're not far out there. Like all major projects ultimately under the control of the treasury, the original concept became a bridge too far when the cost/risk profiles became more established and detailed design and build costs began to significantly out weigh the budgeted costs. I think I may have mentioned before that the original intention of WCRM was that the Power Supply on the major routes of WCML would not be the limiting factor for the expected growth in both passenger and freight electric services following the introduction of Virgin's VHF Timeable in December 2008. Harker and Hutton/Oxenholme were commissioned just prior to that. Frodsham/Weaver came online in June 2009.
Network Rail's resurrection of the incomplete WCRM works in the form of West Coast Power Supply Upgrade (WCPSU) Phase 3A/B saw a reduction in scope of the remaining original works including the removal of some AT sections and indeed the upgrade at Elvanfoot which would have seen AT up to Carstairs. All in all a sad state of affairs I have to say but the those who hold the purse strings inevitably dictate what will be done even if it costs twice as much (or more) in the long run. Penny wise pound foolish was a common phrase used at the time!
The original intention of WCRM was that the power supply on the major routes of the WCML wiudl be sufficient for the PUG2 service level, and nothing more. (A good friend wrote the paper that went to Railtrack Board that got the money to implement it in 1998/9.)
59CosG95
Established Member
ISTR that Hutton/Oxenholme did eventually get its ATF operation, while Harker never did.
GraphitProjekt
Member
Changing tack to Manchester, can anyone confirm how accurate this arrangement is post Stalybridge/Guide bridge electrification (dashed lines refer to AT feeding).
I find Heyrod feeder rather curious because it still doesn't directly connect to any OLE. Yet Miles Platting and Ardwick are described as MPTSC, which suggests to me that different supplies meet one another there, but this depends on more cabling between Heyrod and Stalybridge. Ardwick is another curiosity because it's had a neutral section since the 1990s and so had nothing to do with TRUP. I wonder if that neutral section was installed purely to allow an emergency isolation of the Hadfield line to not affect Piccadilly station, it's the only reason I can assume for why that neutral section existed until 2024.
I find Heyrod feeder rather curious because it still doesn't directly connect to any OLE. Yet Miles Platting and Ardwick are described as MPTSC, which suggests to me that different supplies meet one another there, but this depends on more cabling between Heyrod and Stalybridge. Ardwick is another curiosity because it's had a neutral section since the 1990s and so had nothing to do with TRUP. I wonder if that neutral section was installed purely to allow an emergency isolation of the Hadfield line to not affect Piccadilly station, it's the only reason I can assume for why that neutral section existed until 2024.
thecrofter
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I can fill in one of your blanks (?) - Moss Nook / Heald Green Grid Supply Transformer is 18MVA. Found an old Norweb drawing from year 2000 which I assume is still applicable. As for Ardwick Neutral Section, your assumption of it being a means to isolate the Hadfield / Glossop lines is correct.
GraphitProjekt
Member
Great, thank you for that! Electricity NorthWest (now another SP brand) are very limited with open data, perhaps the worst of all the DNOs at this point. Northern PowerGrid are the best for whatever reason, and UKPN aren't too bad either.
The old EMU failures report from 1962 shows that the original layout had a feeder station at Heaton Norris Jnc and perhaps a few more neutral sections than really makes sense.
So at some point in the Mark 3 metal building era, Heaton Norris was replaced with Edgeley, and Heald Green looks a lot like it dates from the construction of the airport station in 1993, would make sense if they got rid of East Didsbury TSC at that time.
Indeed, my main introduction to the topic of electrification Garry Keenor's, very strong on the mechanical/OLE side but it very much asserts phase breaks being the only use of neutral sections. But the fact that they can sometimes appear purely for strategic emergency isolation reasons offers a good answer to several mystery NSs I've found. It also seems like they were occasionally used for difficult clearances as early as the 1970s, although now much more fashionable.
The old EMU failures report from 1962 shows that the original layout had a feeder station at Heaton Norris Jnc and perhaps a few more neutral sections than really makes sense.
So at some point in the Mark 3 metal building era, Heaton Norris was replaced with Edgeley, and Heald Green looks a lot like it dates from the construction of the airport station in 1993, would make sense if they got rid of East Didsbury TSC at that time.
Indeed, my main introduction to the topic of electrification Garry Keenor's, very strong on the mechanical/OLE side but it very much asserts phase breaks being the only use of neutral sections. But the fact that they can sometimes appear purely for strategic emergency isolation reasons offers a good answer to several mystery NSs I've found. It also seems like they were occasionally used for difficult clearances as early as the 1970s, although now much more fashionable.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Yes Heyrod will only connect to OHLE directly when the W2B section of the Transpennine upgrade and electrification is done. I assume there will be a neutral section very close by.
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GraphitProjekt
Member
I'll certainly look out for that. My rationale at the moment is that Miles Platting and Ardwick neutral sections separate different supplies which can only be the case if there are additional cables from Heyrod to Stalybridge.
The alternative that you suggest would mean that Miles Platting and Ardwick might only separate supplies if Heyrod is fully out of use - meaning Ravensthorpe would feed all the way to Ardwick/Miles Platting.
It could also be the case the HIF contains two circuits and so both supplies can be fed from Ordsall Ln, one for the Bolton Line the other for central Manchester. There are a lot of possible options with the limited info available.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
There has to be a neutral section somewhere between Heyrod and Ravensthorpe.
GraphitProjekt
Member
Indeed! There logically has to be an MPTSC somewhere within the Stalybridge-Huddersfield works, but I've been able to find no information at all about it. My guess is that it would be somewhere near the NwR region boundary between NW&C and Eastern which just on the western side of Standedge Tunnel. My guess about the region boundary being relevant is that this mid-point would also be a change in control between York and Crewe ECRs. There are, however, plenty of examples of control rooms branching into other regions (Cathcart goes quite far into England).
I've really not found very much info regarding TRUP substations. There was some document released with regards to a PWI lecture that revealed the substations being installed east of Leeds (Neville Hill, Micklefield (mid-point), Church Fenton), and other sources have shown that there is to be a neutral section at Colton Jnc (but not on ECML).
The section from Huddersfield to Dewsbury has TWAO drawings that I've scoured for info. There was a substation site listed some distance west of Huddersfield that looks like it could be 25kV. The only other electrical infrastructure noted was a "site substation" for Hillhouse sidings (so likely LV) and a Principle Supply Point for signalling at Thornhill LNW Jnc. I can't find any drawings for Dewsbury - Leeds, guessing they didn't need a TWAO.