WCML substations

[GRALISTAIR]

Amongst the extremely mixed bag of announcements in this week's transport project investments. I did see this intriguing line item:

(And an identical one for WCML north for what it's worth)

Yes I noticed that. I did see in a document (NR) published recently that there are plans to upgrade Catterall and then do AT -Euxton Jct to Catterall and a brand new grid feeder at Penwortham. That is north WCML obviously. I did not pay too much attention to south WCML to be honest.

EDIT - what do you think about changing the thread title to just WCML substations so we don't drift too far OT?

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Yes I noticed that. I did see in a document (NR) published recently that there are plans to upgrade Catterall and then do AT -Euxton Jct to Catterall and a brand new grid feeder at Penwortham. That is north WCML obviously. I did not pay too much attention to south WCML to be honest.

That's great. I really hope something comes of this, long overdue and at least some commiseration prize for losing MML.
But the southern work I'd expect is Bushey Neutral section and then all the OLE work from there down to at least Wembley, if not Euston if the work has been rescoped.

EDIT - what do you think about changing the thread title to just WCML substations so we don't drift too far OT?

done

 

[GRALISTAIR]

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/08_Electrification_Regional-plans-for-the-future_D-Chauke.pdf

The above (posted earlier in the thread) is fantastic. The quote below is from slide 14 but the other slides are great too. Very informative.

Priorities to Support Passenger Services, Freight and Decarbonisation Agenda:
• New Grid Supply at Penwortham and AT Conversion Penwortham to Euxton Junction
• AT BourneEnd to North Wembley
• AT Conversion Weaver to Crewe
• AT Conversion and Mk3D conversions Weaver Junction to Carnforth
• AT Whitmore to Crewe
• Renewal in modern form Grand Junction line Substations
• Develop a capacity uplift at Washwood Heath
• MK3D conversions Carnforth to Great Strickland
• AT Conversion and Mk3D conversion of Great Strickland into Scotland
• Develop a higher capacity supply at Crewe
• Develop AT conversion from Rugby to Queensville via Birmingham

 

[GraphitProjekt]

AT through Birmingham would be exciting. I remember one of they points they said in that PWI talk was that the routes through Birmingham cannot hold up against a power failure on the Trent Valley.

 

[ABB125]

AT through Birmingham would be exciting. I remember one of they points they said in that PWI talk was that the routes through Birmingham cannot hold up against a power failure on the Trent Valley.

Is that because the Birmingham "loop" is fed from the Trent Valley, or due to diversion of trains from the Trent Valley in the event of a power outage? Or both?

Also, I note that a few of the items on the list posted above are "develop plans to...", rather than "AT conversion of...". I wonder, does this mean that most of the schemes are "oven ready", or at least have had a greater level of detail design completed?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well some have been previously planned, and seemingly stopped part way through roll-out.
If the spec has not changed you'd hope they could be completed fairly quickly.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Is that because the Birmingham "loop" is fed from the Trent Valley, or due to diversion of trains from the Trent Valley in the event of a power outage? Or both?

Not entirely sure, I might re-watch the presentation for that. From memory, I think it might be to do with certain N-1 capability for Birmingham lines (this involves cross city and Perry Bar diversions as well the main "loop") depending on the AT feeders on the Trent Valley lines being available. So the normal timetable around Birmingham can't be maintained by the classic feeders in birmingham with resiliency. I haven't (yet) gotten around to charting the interactions between feeder stations on LNW but as far as I know only Walsall to Rugeley is normally supplied by an FS on Trent Valley (Brereton/Rugeley ATFS)

Also, I note that a few of the items on the list posted above are "develop plans to...", rather than "AT conversion of...". I wonder, does this mean that most of the schemes are "oven ready", or at least have had a greater level of detail design completed?

Yes absolutely. The schemes that are implied to be already developed are pretty much schemes that originate from WCRM in Railtrak days that were delayed/restarted/mothballed over the years. Most of the original design has slowly happened but the last of the gaps in that now rather old plan (I think) are Wembley-Bourne End and Euxton to Carnforth. Many things were left half-finished on the ground. Euston-Wembley and through Birmingham are newer ideas that have come along in the intervening decades i believe. I encourage you to read up this thread if you like - but that's the short answer.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes absolutely. The schemes that are implied to be already developed are pretty much schemes that originate from WCRM in Railtrak days -------- Euxton to Carnforth.

Yes you can see the Autotransformer insulators in place - but not wired obviously - around my UK house backing onto the WCML north of Preston.

 

[Elecman]

Is that because the Birmingham "loop" is fed from the Trent Valley, or due to diversion of trains from the Trent Valley in the event of a power outage? Or both?

Also, I note that a few of the items on the list posted above are "develop plans to...", rather than "AT conversion of...". I wonder, does this mean that most of the schemes are "oven ready", or at least have had a greater level of detail design completed?

Birmingham has 3 of its own independent feeder supplies so isn’t reliant on Trent Valley feeders

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Yes you can see the Autotransformer insulators in place - but not wired obviously - around my UK house backing onto the WCML north of Preston.

well you're in the right place for progress pics if anything does materialise!
It's pretty much the same as that between Wembley and Bushey - small random sections of AT insulators dotted around.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that because the Birmingham "loop" is fed from the Trent Valley, or due to diversion of trains from the Trent Valley in the event of a power outage? Or both?

It’s the diversions off the TV. When this happens, especially in an unplanned situ, Willenhall feeder trips out regularly.

 

[ABB125]

It’s the diversions off the TV. When this happens, especially in an unplanned situ, Willenhall feeder trips out regularly.

Why Willenhall in particular - is it more underpowered than the other feeders, or does it just cover a larger area of the diversion (eg: 70% of the diversion route length is notionally fed from Willenhall) so has a bigger increase in load? Does it make any difference whether the diversions go through New Street/Tipton or Aston/Bescot?

 

[Bald Rick]

Why Willenhall in particular - is it more underpowered than the other feeders, or does it just cover a larger area of the diversion (eg: 70% of the diversion route length is notionally fed from Willenhall) so has a bigger increase in load? Does it make any difference whether the diversions go through New Street/Tipton or Aston/Bescot?

The diversions almost always go via Bescot, it’s much quicker.

Willenhall effectively feeds the top end of the West Mids; I don’t know it’s rating bit it will be feeding much, much more than it did when built in the 60s, not least the Rugeley branch.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

well you're in the right place for progress pics if anything does materialise!
It's pretty much the same as that between Wembley and Bushey - small random sections of AT insulators dotted around.

I am retiring next year so I really hope so and will indeed post photos.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Why Willenhall in particular - is it more underpowered than the other feeders, or does it just cover a larger area of the diversion (eg: 70% of the diversion route length is notionally fed from Willenhall) so has a bigger increase in load? Does it make any difference whether the diversions go through New Street/Tipton or Aston/Bescot?

This may help to contextualise things

[deleted because map is wrong, see post 81]
(not obvious from the screenshot, but Bescot to Rugeley is the only "boosterless classic" route on here)

 

[59CosG95]

This may help to contextualise things

View attachment 183522
(not obvious from the screenshot, but Bescot to Rugeley is the only "boosterless classic" route on here)

I've just seen that Aston is Ascot now, apparently. Who's gonna tell the Villa?

 

[ABB125]

This may help to contextualise things

View attachment 183522
(not obvious from the screenshot, but Bescot to Rugeley is the only "boosterless classic" route on here)

Thanks.
Washwood Heath doesn't seem to be feeding much in comparison

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I've just seen that Aston is Ascot now, apparently. Who's gonna tell the Villa?

Dammit! Serves me right for trying to do things at 3am

 

[thecrofter]

This may help to contextualise things

View attachment 183522
(not obvious from the screenshot, but Bescot to Rugeley is the only "boosterless classic" route on here)

As Roy Walker would say, that graphic "is good but it's not quite correct". Willenhall has only ever had one incoming feed from the DNO although there are two Incoming Breakers and a (normally closed) Bus Section. Brereton ATFS extension (that's me in the very building on my X profile photo) feeds down to Bescot Mid Point so Willenhall supplies Queensville to Coseley / Perry Bar. P.S. Whilst Rugeley - Bescot is not equipped with Booster Transformers, it is an enhanced Boosterless Classic with Return Screening Conductor (RSC).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The quality of information on this forum blows my mind. It is why I remain a member. Fantastic - thanks to all.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

As Roy Walker would say, that graphic "is good but it's not quite correct". Willenhall has only ever had one incoming feed from the DNO although there are two Incoming Breakers and a (normally closed) Bus Section. Brereton ATFS extension (that's me in the very building on my X profile photo) feeds down to Bescot Mid Point so Willenhall supplies Queensville to Coseley / Perry Bar. P.S. Whilst Rugeley - Bescot is not equipped with Booster Transformers, it is an enhanced Boosterless Classic with Return Screening Conductor (RSC).

Thanks for this! As always, a good way to learn things is say something wrong first.

What are the capabilities of Brereton feeder extension? Can either A or B grid connections be switched onto the Chase Line or is it always which ever is immediately next to it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2025 ==

The quality of information on this forum blows my mind. It is why I remain a member. Fantastic - thanks to all.

I know right! Thank God railforumsuk has an in-built bookmark system with tags and everything - a veritable library at times

 

[thecrofter]

Thanks for this! As always, a good way to learn things is say something wrong first.
View attachment 183594
What are the capabilities of Brereton feeder extension? Can either A or B grid connections be switched onto the Chase Line or is it always which ever is immediately next to it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2025 ==


I know right! Thank God railforumsuk has an in-built bookmark system with tags and everything - a veritable library at times

The Extension Interconnector is normally fed from the North Busbar feed (F4) but could be fed via the South feed (F3) by closure of the Bus Section on the loss of F4. The Extension doesn’t have an incoming circuit breaker on the busbar just an Isolator and two outgoing CBs for the track feeds. Hope that helps.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I see, so the Chase Line does whatever Brereton to Stone is doing.
I'm assuming there's exactly 2 grid connections going on, what do F1 and F2 do?

 

[thecrofter]

There is no F1 & F2. Railway Feeder nomenclature is usually based on the Grid Feeder numbers. e.g. Rugeley SGTs are SGT3 & 4 hence Brereton Feeders are numbered F3 & F4.

 

[The Planner]

If the TV is isolated around Brereton then you are turning Chase Line trains at Hednesford.

 

[Elecman]

There is no F1 & F2. Railway Feeder nomenclature is usually based on the Grid Feeder numbers. e.g. Rugeley SGTs are SGT3 & 4 hence Brereton Feeders are numbered F3 & F4.

And at the older 132kV Grid supply points they are known as GT as opposed to SGT

 

[GraphitProjekt]

And at the older 132kV Grid supply points they are known as GT as opposed to SGT

hence lots of 132/33kV substations are referred to as "grid". Does this mean that a 33/xyz connection would be a PT (for primary [distribution] transformer)?

I recall reading in a book about ECML electrification that by the 1980s most 132kV lines were used for regional area distribution rather than their original purpose of national "grid" transmission due to the widespread rollout of the "super grid". The implication being that securing 132kV connections was harder in the late 80s and 90s than in the 1960s because those lines weren't being regularly utilised as much as in previous times, so the imbalance caused by railway loads was more of a problem for the grid operator than in the old days. Of course, not insurmountably - there was something like 15 or 16 original feeder stations on the ECML and only 1 was from a supergrid source back then.

 

[Elecman]

All 132kV systems are now owned and operated by the local DNO and not National Grid Transmission whomown and operate the 275 and 400kV transmission system

 

[Richard123]

hence lots of 132/33kV substations are referred to as "grid". Does this mean that a 33/xyz connection would be a PT (for primary [distribution] transformer)?

I recall reading in a book about ECML electrification that by the 1980s most 132kV lines were used for regional area distribution rather than their original purpose of national "grid" transmission due to the widespread rollout of the "super grid". The implication being that securing 132kV connections was harder in the late 80s and 90s than in the 1960s because those lines weren't being regularly utilised as much as in previous times, so the imbalance caused by railway loads was more of a problem for the grid operator than in the old days. Of course, not insurmountably - there was something like 15 or 16 original feeder stations on the ECML and only 1 was from a supergrid source back then.

The lines were just as capable. The biggest issue was that loads were increasing with more, faster trains.

It's hard to imagine how low the 1960s electrification loads were, but expresses could be 75mph and trunk routes saw 0.5 or 1tph that today see 3tph each!

As the railway is operated more intensively now, and with faster trains, loads are much higher, increasing the power quality problems.

Supergrid connections were always considered, but costing an order of magnitude more, and only available in a few locations, both economics and operability/resilience meant they were generally a last resort.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ilway-closure-to-improve-network-near-and-far
Within the 3 week closure around Stockport for a road overbridge replacement is a litany of other works taking advantage of the large blockade. Including:

• Strengthening and waterproofing River Trent Viaduct in Stone
• Work to upgrade the power supply to overhead lines in Stockport
• Track renewals in Stone, Hixon and Congleton
• Railway point replacement in Macclesfield
• Platform work at Poynton station
• Railway drainage upgraded at Trentham
• A new footbridge at Longport station

Does anyone know this power supply work could be?