WCML refranchise

[tbtc]

Seems to be a general concensus that Virgin have got up the Dft's nose once too often over the years.

It didn't stop Stagecoach win the East Midlands franchise though

 

[Pumbaa]

Stagecoach provide the expertise and half the finance; Virgin provide the balls and the other half the finance. Ergo I'd be more irritated at the Virgin side of the business.

 

[Fincra5]

But its by having the balls that Virgin get things done, even if it upset the DfT.

 

[thefab444]

Surely most of the improvements would have been made regardless of who the operator was?

 

[Dreadnought]

They most certainly have especially with the money they got from the late completion of the WCML upgrade, they could have ceased operations for 6 months and still made a profit. There is also the back door deal that was signed up with the Franchise agreements. They gave up Cross Country thinking they would get the ECML and it backfired leaving them with egg on their faces. There are quite a few other incidents that upset the Dft also.

Out of curiosity why is it Virgins fault that when they signed their franchise agreement somebody agreed to these hefty penalty clauses for late completion / different spec railway? Surely the other party should be held liable for not realising the impact these could potentially have if things didn't go to plan, especially with the scope and amount of work that was being carried out to upgrade the WCML.

Also, how did they give up Cross Country when they put in a bid that was almost comparable to the winning bid by Arriva?

 

[Pumbaa]

Surely most of the improvements would have been made regardless of who the operator was?

Surely DafT knows how best to run a railway in the country's interest, but that isn't the case. Petty politics, people politics, cut your nose off to spite your face etc. Marsham St isn't the prettiest of places!

To be fair, Stagecoach may have honestly put in the best bid and deserved to win. But when you know which parent influences which part of the business, it would be (seemingly) difficult not to be prejudiced against the part of the business which has cost you several headaches, and the taxpayer a lot of money.

 

[317 forever]

I noticed how once the new franchises had been awarded in 2007 everyone had 2, 3 or 4 franchises apart from Virgin (and London Overground who are a special case as a TfL concession). This makes it look likely that Virgin will lose West Coast. GoVia would be logical successors to Virgin as their London Midland franchise already serves Euston. Mind you, as GoVia specifically like commuter services I doubt they will be interested. Stagecoach seem likely as they have just 2 fully-owned franchises and already own 49% of Virgin West Coast.

 

[Zoe]

Hmm, either Govia or Stagecoach, i doubt First or any other group would get it.

Stagecoach own 49% of Virgin Trains so won't be bidding.

 

[Crossforth]

It will certainly be one of the more interesting to see who bids and what the outcome is

 

[Pumbaa]

Stagecoach own 49% of Virgin Trains so won't be bidding.

Stagecoach may own 49% of VRG but that didn't stop them putting in a bid for the XC franchise separately to VRG.

 

[222666]

I noticed how once the new franchises had been awarded in 2007 everyone had 2, 3 or 4 franchises apart from Virgin (and London Overground who are a special case as a TfL concession). This makes it look likely that Virgin will lose West Coast. GoVia would be logical successors to Virgin as their London Midland franchise already serves Euston. Mind you, as GoVia specifically like commuter services I doubt they will be interested. Stagecoach seem likely as they have just 2 fully-owned franchises and already own 49% of Virgin West Coast.

This makes me think there is some grand long term plan to re-nationalise the railways starting with privatised regions a la "London Midland Region" (?) But then again maybe not, as where are LMs mainline Desiros? They could've already started competing with Virgin as a lower cost alternative as far as Manchester & Liverpool (I'm still surprised they don't serve Manchester, even as a semi-fast from Birmingham), but then this is the UK rail network, Liverpool is in the East Midlands apparently (EMT), so what do I know!! :roll:

Do people think there is such a plan to go back to regions like in the old days?

 

[tbtc]

Liverpool is in the East Midlands apparently (EMT),

By the same token, Glasgow is on the East Coast, Birmingham is in Wales, London is Great Western and Nottingham is Northern

(the worst example, though, was the old "West Anglia" - since Anglia means England - as in "Anglo Saxon" - Cambridge and Peterborough doesn't fit my idea of "West England")

 

[Zoe]

Stagecoach may own 49% of VRG but that didn't stop them putting in a bid for the XC franchise separately to VRG.

I can't find anything saying they bid for the XC franchise but even if Stagecoach were to separately bid for WC, I can't see them making the shortlist as they own 49% of Virgin Trains and Virgin Trains as the incumbent is almost certain to make the shortlist.

 

[jopsuk]

tbtc- don't forget, London is served by Scotrail...

 

[tbtc]

tbtc- don't forget, London is served by Scotrail...

Good point!

Aberystwyth and Norwich were both "central" a few years ago too

 

[350401]

This makes me think there is some grand long term plan to re-nationalise the railways starting with privatised regions a la "London Midland Region" (?) But then again maybe not, as where are LMs mainline Desiros? They could've already started competing with Virgin as a lower cost alternative as far as Manchester & Liverpool (I'm still surprised they don't serve Manchester, even as a semi-fast from Birmingham), but then this is the UK rail network, Liverpool is in the East Midlands apparently (EMT), so what do I know!! :roll:

Do people think there is such a plan to go back to regions like in the old days?

London Midland do already compete with Virgin trains to an extent, running the Crewe-London train. They offer a £14 (with railcard) "super off-peak" return from Crewe to Euston, which takes ages, but the savings make it worthwhile. I know a fair few people who choose to travel on a local ticket to Crewe from Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Chelford etc, and then go from Crewe on LM. They are currently running a summer sale of 50% off tickets, with the £14 return currently discounted to £10. Given the usual 30 day validity period of off-peak tickets applies, if your flexible with timing, its a real bargain.

 

[A0]

This makes me think there is some grand long term plan to re-nationalise the railways starting with privatised regions a la "London Midland Region" (?) But then again maybe not, as where are LMs mainline Desiros? They could've already started competing with Virgin as a lower cost alternative as far as Manchester & Liverpool (I'm still surprised they don't serve Manchester, even as a semi-fast from Birmingham), but then this is the UK rail network, Liverpool is in the East Midlands apparently (EMT), so what do I know!! :roll:

Do people think there is such a plan to go back to regions like in the old days?

I believe the reason LM don't run the Birmingham - Manchester (with a semi-fast) is a lack of available paths - there was something about that in the relevant RUS. Between Macclesfield and Stoke you've got each hour, 3 x Virgin Manchester - London, 1 x Northern Manchester - Stoke stoppers, and from memory at least 1 / hour if not 2 / hour Cross Country services. And south of Kidsgrove you've also got the EMT Crewe - Derby and LM Crewe - London.

Liverpool isn't in the East Midlands..... it's simply that EMT was the most logical operator for the Liverpool - Norwich service. Funnily enough London isn't in Scotland, yet you get a couple of Scotrail services into / out of Euston each day........

 

[Geezertronic]

Funnily enough London isn't in Scotland, yet you get a couple of Scotrail services into / out of Euston each day........

Are these the sleeper services?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are these the sleeper services?

Unless I'm missing something they would indeed be the sleepers, two north and two south (I think).

 

[222666]

lol @ the geography lesson

TBH I think Liverpool - Norwich should be run by XC, not EMT. I'd much rather see Voyagers doing the route (though I quite like what EMT have done with the 158s ).

London fits in with the 'geography' because of the mainlines serving those areas, rather like the trunk supporting the rest of the tree.

 

[A0]

lol @ the geography lesson

TBH I think Liverpool - Norwich should be run by XC, not EMT. I'd much rather see Voyagers doing the route (though I quite like what EMT have done with the 158s ).

London fits in with the 'geography' because of the mainlines serving those areas, rather like the trunk supporting the rest of the tree.

Not the old 'put Voyagers / Meridians on the Liverpool - Norwich' again......

That's been around this board far too many times and as others, who know far more than I do have pointed out, it will never happen and there is no advantage to removing the Voyagers from their current duties to deploy them on this route.

There is nowhere on the route where their 125mph performance could be used for a real advantage, there are weight limits in East Anglia which count against them etc etc.

The 158s were designed as long-distance units and are used on other long-distance services e.g. London - Exeter (yes, I know they're 159's but the differences are minimal).

If the Liverpool - Norwich was being run using 150s, then I'd say you had a point.

 

[Mr Spock]

I believe the reason LM don't run the Birmingham - Manchester (with a semi-fast) is a lack of available paths - there was something about that in the relevant RUS. Between Macclesfield and Stoke you've got each hour, 3 x Virgin Manchester - London, 1 x Northern Manchester - Stoke stoppers, and from memory at least 1 / hour if not 2 / hour Cross Country services. And south of Kidsgrove you've also got the EMT Crewe - Derby and LM Crewe - London.

Liverpool isn't in the East Midlands..... it's simply that EMT was the most logical operator for the Liverpool - Norwich service. Funnily enough London isn't in Scotland, yet you get a couple of Scotrail services into / out of Euston each day........

Actually only 2 Virgins go via Stoke as the 3rd one goes via Crewe.

 

[A0]

Actually only 2 Virgins go via Stoke as the 3rd one goes via Crewe.

Correct - oversight on my part.

However, the fact still remains there are few, if any available paths from Stoke - Macclesfield and the chances are they don't tie in with the paths available from Stoke - Stafford - Birmingham.

 

[Pumbaa]

I can't find anything saying they bid for the XC franchise but even if Stagecoach were to separately bid for WC, I can't see them making the shortlist as they own 49% of Virgin Trains and Virgin Trains as the incumbent is almost certain to make the shortlist.

Don't bet on it - DfT want VRG out. I would place good money on them not making the shortlist, and not getting EC either if it comes back into private hands.

 

[asylumxl]

Don't bet on it - DfT want VRG out. I would place good money on them not making the shortlist, and not getting EC either if it comes back into private hands.

Cos the DfT got pwned

 

[Aictos]

With the issues of 158s on the Norwich to Liverpool line, what the DfT ought to have done is take the 158s from FSR which are used on the Far North lines and send them to EMT to strengthen the Norwich to Liverpool services and send some EMT 156s to FSR in return after all the line speed isn't going to be any more then 75mph and the 156s are more suited to the Far North lines.

As to the next franchise, I reckon DB will be a contender for one maybe two franchises.

 

[MCR247]

That would have been good, but part of the problem at the moment with 158s is they'd be fine if there we had enough units to cover the Nottingham local services. That is why we will be gettting 4x 156s from Nottingham. That way 158s can be focused on Nottingham - Liverpool services (which should all be 4 car) with 2 cars going through to Norwich.

A good example of 158s on local services is now EMT are starting to refurb 153s and 156s, there will be 1x 156 and 1x 153 out of service so 2 of the 3 Nottingham - Matlock diagrams will be 158s!

 

[222666]

Not the old 'put Voyagers / Meridians on the Liverpool - Norwich' again......

:roll:

No! I was just suggesting L'pool - Norwich should be on XC network, as this is practically running a service, "cross country"

 

[MCR247]

:roll: :roll:

No, it shouldn't as they 158s are based in Nottingham, they can be used interchangeably with the local fleet, so if a 158 fails, it can be run with a 156, although not ideal, better than cancelling it