WCML Preston-Carlisle: prospects for Monday

[Bletchleyite]

Not an awful lot of sense to bus to the middle of nowhere (country lanes etc) when Preston is near the M6. I see little valid excuse for buses not being in place at least from tomorrow, even if not all stations can be served.

 

[najaB]

It just isn't good enough; people are still confused. See Twitter for an example of this.

I am being obtuse deliberately. I am acting like a first-time (and possibly last-time) passenger.

With respect, some people would be confused by the operating instructions on a revolving door. That's why the simplest possible instructions are best: If your ticket is for the 5th or 6th then it is valid for the 7th. No need to add 'take a seat on any train' or similar.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I note that both the 09:15 Crewe-Carnforth and the 11:07 Worcester-Carnforth ran as booked today, so the down line seems to be open as far as Carnforth:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O49576/2015/12/06/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54102/2015/12/06/advanced

 

[Starmill]

Unless I've missed it, NRE indicates that no TOCs have been serving Lancaster today. Which is iteresting if the line is open? Perhaps there's damage to the station, or no power?

 

[Darandio]

Unless I've missed it, NRE indicates that no TOCs have been serving Lancaster today. Which is iteresting if the line is open? Perhaps there's damage to the station, or no power?

Given hospitals there are on generator power and thousands of households are without power, I'd say the station is probably off as well.

 

[PHILIPE]

Unless I've missed it, NRE indicates that no TOCs have been serving Lancaster today. Which is iteresting if the line is open? Perhaps there's damage to the station, or no power?

Yes. The 2 Steamtown trains ran but nothing else to or from Lancaster.

 

[yorksrob]

Is there any further information on state of Settle Carlisle line?

Whilst Carlisle may be out of the question, could two services Leeds & Preston -> Armathwaite be offered with onward coach travel?

I realise that armathwaite is not exactly a large station, but a basic service is better than none when WCML is shut.

Paths ought to easy enough as few coal trains nowadays.

According to NRE trains aren't running between Skipton and Carlisle. Perhaps there might be a possibility of getting something to Appleby at some stage. Not sure there's much in the way of crossovers etc further North to allow for reversal.

 

[DarloRich]

Unless I've missed it, NRE indicates that no TOCs have been serving Lancaster today. Which is iteresting if the line is open? Perhaps there's damage to the station, or no power?

Given hospitals there are on generator power and thousands of households are without power, I'd say the station is probably off as well.

BBC radio news say that both Carlisle and Lancaster hospitals are running on back up generators. I guess that could mean widespread loss of power in those areas!

 

[darloscott]

According to NRE trains aren't running between Skipton and Carlisle. Perhaps there might be a possibility of getting something to Appleby at some stage. Not sure there's much in the way of crossovers etc further North to allow for reversal.

Could they not run to Ribblehead at least? As per the evening service out of Leeds. Might not be ideal but its half of the line covered.

 

[yorksrob]

Could they not run to Ribblehead at least? As per the evening service out of Leeds. Might not be ideal but its half of the line covered.

You'd hope so, but perhaps there's currently something else amiss further south.

 

[30907]

BBC radio news say that both Carlisle and Lancaster hospitals are running on back up generators. I guess that could mean widespread loss of power in those areas!

To put it mildly, according to colleagues in the area. 55k HOMES without power and most expected to be off till Tues.
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You'd hope so, but perhaps there's currently something else amiss further south.

Flooding upstream of Skipton - and when all that water finds it's way downstream, probably at Kirkstall in due course.

And another colleague tweeted about being called in to organise breakfast for 200 stranded in Preston. Flooding between there and Lancs this morning.
Cross reference the Desmond thread!

 

[DarloRich]

To put it mildly, according to colleagues in the area. 55k HOMES without power and most expected to be off till Tues.

Yes - that is terrible for the people concerned however the hospitals being off are a bigger problem or at least the urgent problem.

 

[yorksrob]

Flooding upstream of Skipton - and when all that water finds it's way downstream, probably at Kirkstall in due course.

That explains it. To be fair, the valley between Skipton and Settle Junction seems to be quite waterlogged a lot of the time.

 

[30907]

Yes - that is terrible for the people concerned however the hospitals being off are a bigger problem or at least the urgent problem.

Agree, just highlighting the scale of the problem, the whole of Lancaster and Morecambe.
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That explains it. To be fair, the valley between Skipton and Settle Junction seems to be quite waterlogged a lot of the time.

Yes, but that's partly intentional - certainly the Ings round my onetime home Cononley and onward to Utley are designed to flood.

 

[matacaster]

That explains it. To be fair, the valley between Skipton and Settle Junction seems to be quite waterlogged a lot of the time.

Agree railway at Kirkstall is very likely to flood - it doesn't take much, its not all that much higher than the river when its rained fairly heavily. So what it will be like when this lot gets downstream is anyone's guess.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not an awful lot of sense to bus to the middle of nowhere (country lanes etc) when Preston is near the M6. I see little valid excuse for buses not being in place at least from tomorrow, even if not all stations can be served.

Quite where are you imagining these buses are coming from ? There's no reason why many buses will be readily available in that part of the country, nor the necessary drivers. Spare resources like this may well be available during school holidays but many will be committed during school term.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Quite where are you imagining these buses are coming from ? There's no reason why many buses will be readily available in that part of the country, nor the necessary drivers. Spare resources like this may well be available during school holidays but many will be committed during school term.

Schools are closed in a lot of areas. It makes buses available - it may make drivers unavailable if they have childcare commitments to attend to. I do look forward to Neil working out the logistics of this.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

East coast mainline is at least open, hopefully tyne valley will be sorted by the morning so theres a viable alternative

 

[PHILIPE]

Schools are closed in a lot of areas. It makes buses available - it may make drivers unavailable if they have childcare commitments to attend to. I do look forward to Neil working out the logistics of this.

School buses are often old bangers and wouldn't be very comfortable for a long journey.

 

[matacaster]

School buses are often old bangers and wouldn't be very comfortable for a long journey.

So are class 142's on Leeds-Morecambe.

 

[yorksrob]

So are class 142's on Leeds-Morecambe.

Occasionally.

More often 144's and 150's (fortunately).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Schools are closed in a lot of areas. It makes buses available - it may make drivers unavailable if they have childcare commitments to attend to. I do look forward to Neil working out the logistics of this.

I'm not paid to work out the logistics of it. VT are, however, and should be ploughing on with it. There certainly will be some buses available somewhere in the country, at the right price. They can't necessarily be obtained at zero notice, but it certainly should be possible to obtain some within 24 hours as would be required to begin service tomorrow first thing.

And if there aren't VT should be honest about why they cannot offer a service. There is no safety reason why rail replacement bus services cannot run tomorrow. The storm is over. They won't be able to serve everywhere due to flooding, but that is no reason not to serve the places they can.

They aren't going to need the full capacity of their normal service, as buses will put many people off, while many others will use alternative routes. They just need a basic service from Preston to Carlisle calling at as many stations as are accessible by road.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm not in Cumbria, weather has confined me to Co Durham. My wife and some friends are there and it is very disrupted. Lancaster Hospital says it is short of food and soon, no doubt, diesel for its generators.

The correct thing today and perhaps for a few days is simply to decline travel.

Andrew

 

[6Gman]

I'm not paid to work out the logistics of it. VT are, however, and should be ploughing on with it. There certainly will be some buses available somewhere in the country, at the right price. They can't necessarily be obtained at zero notice, but it certainly should be possible to obtain some within 24 hours as would be required to begin service tomorrow first thing.

And if there aren't VT should be honest about why they cannot offer a service. There is no safety reason why rail replacement bus services cannot run tomorrow. The storm is over. They won't be able to serve everywhere due to flooding, but that is no reason not to serve the places they can.

They aren't going to need the full capacity of their normal service, as buses will put many people off, while many others will use alternative routes. They just need a basic service from Preston to Carlisle calling at as many stations as are accessible by road.

I'm still not entirely convinced (if you're having to bring buses from far, far away that plays havoc with drivers' hours) but I'd certainly hope that VT would be endeavouring to provide a r/rep service.

Unfortunately the impression I get is that VT are quicker than some other TOCs to file things in the "too hard to bother with" drawer!

Yesterday their twitter feed was telling Lancaster - London passengers not to travel today even though trains were running from Preston.

And Stagecoach were running buses from Lancaster to Preston.

And Stagecoach owns 49% of VTWC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The correct thing today and perhaps for a few days is simply to decline travel.

Why? If it is possible to offer travel, which it is given that National Express and Megabus are operating, it is right to offer it. It might be needed even more than usual, for instance for those whose cars have been written off in floods.

If it is possible for the railway to operate (or to bustitute) it should do so. I fail to see any evidence why a skeleton replacement bus service could not be implemented. It's not as if anyone is going to choose to go to an affected place unless they have a very good reason to do so.

It's not the railway's job to moralise. Its job (paid for in part by the taxpayer, remember) is to provide transport if it is in any way viable to do so.
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Unfortunately the impression I get is that VT are quicker than some other TOCs to file things in the "too hard to bother with" drawer!

It would certainly appear so. It was for instance very poor that everything was terminating at Preston last Sunday, because the line was open as far as Oxenholme, TPE were operating to Barrow, and the power was not off so far as I am aware.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It remains chaos in the area.

Truly. Look at BBC travel, there are loads of road problems and power outages, the best advice is sometimes not to travel. (Yes I know busses have batteries.)

Edit: Sorry to go on about this but currently there are major road closures in Lancaster and Carlisle and the best thing to do is tell people to stay warm and safe, or at least safe. There are several routes in Cumbria where the roads have been damaged and (one assumes) there is a limit to what rail replacement busses can do in an unplanned situation. Mind you El Nino has been going on for a while so perhaps the busses should be on standby.

I wanted to go to the Kendal area yesterday, but I'm in Durham because it was silly. I suppose I could have chipped up and bought a "via Skipton" but common sense etc.

Andrew

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There is no safety reason why rail replacement bus services cannot run tomorrow. The storm is over. They won't be able to serve everywhere due to flooding, but that is no reason not to serve the places they can.

No safety reason. What little fantasy world do you live on ?

Megabus and National Express probably shouldn't be running, their own foolhardy behaviour is not an excuse to berate Virgin Trains and others for refusing to run rail replacement bus services.

We've got roads washed away, bridges which may be unstable and liable to collapse, bus and train stations without electricity, and to top it all, we've got rain coming in tomorrow, and again later in the week, which will add between 80mm and 100mm of further rainfall on already saturated ground.

If the WCML opens this week at all, it'll be something of a miracle, VT will get some sort of replacement bus service up and running when it's absolutely safe to do so, but telling people not to travel at the moment is the most responsible course of action as well as the most sensible course of action for the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Megabus and National Express probably shouldn't be running, their own foolhardy behaviour is not an excuse to berate Virgin Trains and others for refusing to run rail replacement bus services.

Disagree (and I think that allegation is borderline slanderous against Megabus and Nat Ex, as you seem to be stating that they are putting their passengers at risk, which I do not believe they would do). I'm sure they will have done the appropriate risk assessments. There are no known issues with the motorway network that would mean these services could not operate.

If the WCML opens this week at all, it'll be something of a miracle, VT will get some sort of replacement bus service up and running when it's absolutely safe to do so, but telling people not to travel at the moment is the most responsible course of action as well as the most sensible course of action for the railway.

The problem is that, while people may be best advised not to leave home, a good many people are stuck *not* at home. That needs solving. One option would be to stop selling tickets, but to provide replacement services to allow all those who already have them to complete their return journeys, though I admit that is not foolproof.

 

[najaB]

We've got roads washed away, bridges which may be unstable and liable to collapse, bus and train stations without electricity, and to top it all, we've got rain coming in tomorrow, and again later in the week, which will add between 80mm and 100mm of further rainfall on already saturated ground.

Was just looking at the charts and it doesn't look good for Wednesday into Thursday. Gusts up to hurricane force for the west of Scotland and more rain for north west England.
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There are no known issues with the motorway network that would mean these services could not operate.

A shame then that the motorway network doesn't directly connect to the rail network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wanted to go to the Kendal area yesterday, but I'm in Durham because it was silly. I suppose I could have chipped up and bought a "via Skipton" but common sense etc.

Now let's say you had elderly relatives in Kendal with nobody taking care of them, and you needed to go there to ensure their safety, and you didn't drive.

That Megabus and Nat Ex services are not full is showing that people are using a modicum of sense and not travelling if it isn't necessary. But many of course will be driving, or even taking taxis. The motorways are open.

There is no reason for the railway to be making judgements about peoples' journeys. It is safe to operate or it is not. To me, that Megabus, Nat Ex, and I'm told Stagecoach Lancaster's long distance services, are operating, says to me that it is safe. Thus, what precisely is the railway playing at?
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A shame then that the motorway network doesn't directly connect to the rail network.

Not all main roads are closed.